Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
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"...and He sent and SIGNIFIED it by the hand of His angel unto His servant John". "SIGNIFY" = "SIGN IFY:, or "given in signs". So, no presumption on my part, thank you 
Look, the fact is that the "immortal soul" crowd EVEN IN THEIR ERROR should recognize "souls under the altar" is a symbol because they themselves claim at death, the soul flies off to heaven or goes burning in hell... never said to go hanging out under any altars.
Look, the fact is that the "immortal soul" crowd EVEN IN THEIR ERROR should recognize "souls under the altar" is a symbol because they themselves claim at death, the soul flies off to heaven or goes burning in hell... never said to go hanging out under any altars.
I'll see your "error alert" and raise you "Serpent lie alert"
Genesis 2:7 KJV PLAINLY states a SOUL is the whole being, comprised of its parts, the Body and the Breath of Life.
While it refers to the whole Person, it also refers to the "life" of the Person which, again, exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.
Genesis 2:7 KJV PLAINLY states a SOUL is the whole being, comprised of its parts, the Body and the Breath of Life.
While it refers to the whole Person, it also refers to the "life" of the Person which, again, exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.
That's why I pray for the "immortal soul" crowd ... who think God is worse than the vilest mass murdering despot ever to grace the topside of the Earth by their belief that He will torment the wicked for all eternity
Repent from such Religion of Exclusivity that is Eternal Torment, Luciferian Worship, Predestination, etc.
Repent from such Religion of Exclusivity that is Eternal Torment, Luciferian Worship, Predestination, etc.
I would say the vast majority believe in eternal torment in hell, it's more than likely it's because of Catholic doctrine that has sneaked in most churches.
Doug Bachelor does a pretty good job on uncovering the truth about death and hell.
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I agree with all those verses. They don't oppose what I teach.
God doesn't care about the First Death which is nothing but an inconvenience to Him. What concerns Him is the Second Death, from which He is trying to save us. That's why He refers to the First Death as "sleep" - because He knows the hour is coming when all the dead that have ever lived will wake up in their graves when they "hear His voice, and shall come forth". It's the wicked who will then be condemned and "sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake" which is the Second Death.
Jesus is talking about us having passed from the Second Death to life, not consciousness in death. Job says he'd wait for his "change" in the house of his grave, not in heaven. Solomon plainly says consciousness in death is impossible, but for some reason people think they're smarter than Solomon.
God doesn't care about the First Death which is nothing but an inconvenience to Him. What concerns Him is the Second Death, from which He is trying to save us. That's why He refers to the First Death as "sleep" - because He knows the hour is coming when all the dead that have ever lived will wake up in their graves when they "hear His voice, and shall come forth". It's the wicked who will then be condemned and "sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake" which is the Second Death.
Jesus is talking about us having passed from the Second Death to life, not consciousness in death. Job says he'd wait for his "change" in the house of his grave, not in heaven. Solomon plainly says consciousness in death is impossible, but for some reason people think they're smarter than Solomon.
in an instant in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet, the trumpet will sound for, and the dead will be raised imperishable and we will be changed
Please take note of the HENCE: IMMORTAL because that is what is ASSUMED but not written. THE DEAD/spiritually dead, those who never came to faith (so were not 'raised up'/passed through death) but bound when they died are raised up imperishable, incorruptible, but not immortal, IF IT WERE then there would be no need for the
1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
862. aphthartos ►
Strong's Concordance
aphthartos: imperishable, incorruptible
Original Word: ἄφθαρτος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aphthartos
Phonetic Spelling: (af'-thar-tos)
Definition: undecaying, imperishable
Usage: indestructible, imperishable, incorruptible; hence: immortal.
236. allassó ►
Strong's Concordance
allassó: to change
Original Word: ἀλλάσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: allassó
Phonetic Spelling: (al-las'-so)
Definition: to change
Usage: I change, alter, exchange, transform.
Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered 31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows 32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
NO one seems to notice that the BODY that goes into the lake of fire is not this weak easy to kill body we are in right now but the body that has risen from the dust of the earth. THAT is what is scary about the lake of fire.
Did you reply without reading? I said we are not whisked away IN BODY, but we are taken IN SPIRIT.
And the LAST TRUMP, is not a Judgment Trump, it is referring unto the LAST of 100 Trumps during the Feast of Trumps, they blew 99 times in 9 sets 11, after the new moon was sighted, then on the Last Trump it blew longer and louder than the other 99 and it thus officially ended the Summer Harvest.
Seeing as Jesus fulfilled the Three Spring Feasts (Passover, Unleavened Bread ad First-fruits) and that were are now in the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost or Summer Harvest (Gentile Church Age) then Jesus blowing the LAST TRUMP (Rev. 4:1) means Jesus ends the Summer Harvest (Gentile Church Age) and thus the Feast of Trumps is a Fall Feast fulfilled by Jesus, who ends the Summer Harvest Church Age which we, the Church of Jesus are fulfilling by Harvesting souls unto Christ Jesus. After the Feast of Trumps only the Feasts of Atonement and Tabernacle are left to be fulfilled.
Israel must Atone for their sins during the 70th week, that is only fulfilled when Zechariah 13:8-9 comes to pass. Then when Jesus reigns from Jerusalem with the Jews for 1000 years he thus fulfills the last Feast, the word Tabernacle means to DWELL with God and Jesus is God. So, the LAST TRUMP, is Jesus simply ending the Gentile Church Age by calling us home. The 7 Feasts were Holy Convocations which literally mean Dress Rehearsals in the native Hebrew language.
Satan is defeated and locked up after the 7th Vial which comes from the 7th Trump which is the 3rd Woe, in other words the 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe and ALL 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe. But that has nothing to do with the Last Trump that ends the Church Age Harvest.
And the LAST TRUMP, is not a Judgment Trump, it is referring unto the LAST of 100 Trumps during the Feast of Trumps, they blew 99 times in 9 sets 11, after the new moon was sighted, then on the Last Trump it blew longer and louder than the other 99 and it thus officially ended the Summer Harvest.
Seeing as Jesus fulfilled the Three Spring Feasts (Passover, Unleavened Bread ad First-fruits) and that were are now in the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost or Summer Harvest (Gentile Church Age) then Jesus blowing the LAST TRUMP (Rev. 4:1) means Jesus ends the Summer Harvest (Gentile Church Age) and thus the Feast of Trumps is a Fall Feast fulfilled by Jesus, who ends the Summer Harvest Church Age which we, the Church of Jesus are fulfilling by Harvesting souls unto Christ Jesus. After the Feast of Trumps only the Feasts of Atonement and Tabernacle are left to be fulfilled.
Israel must Atone for their sins during the 70th week, that is only fulfilled when Zechariah 13:8-9 comes to pass. Then when Jesus reigns from Jerusalem with the Jews for 1000 years he thus fulfills the last Feast, the word Tabernacle means to DWELL with God and Jesus is God. So, the LAST TRUMP, is Jesus simply ending the Gentile Church Age by calling us home. The 7 Feasts were Holy Convocations which literally mean Dress Rehearsals in the native Hebrew language.
Satan is defeated and locked up after the 7th Vial which comes from the 7th Trump which is the 3rd Woe, in other words the 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe and ALL 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe. But that has nothing to do with the Last Trump that ends the Church Age Harvest.
OH, we agree here! And so I am just adding to the parts of your post that are about this subject to show more proof that the lake of fire is not eternal (but when you watch a puff of smoke go up it dissipates to nothingness, like it never was.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
THESE guys, they followed Satan his release for the short season and JUDGMENT has been cast upon them.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
UP until that point in time not one soul had 'perished' beside the ones mentioned above. Then all evil went into the lake of fire....
AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS? The first heaven and the first earth were passed away. The 'lake of fire' is gone with that 'age'.
And all left have incorruptible bodies and immortal souls and no need for a lake of fire anymore.
The former things will not be remembered. How else could all tears be wiped away if just one person was missing someone? Not possible. So along with all else of this age, gone. Blotted out. Like they never were. That is tormenting in itself.
No, this is about ALL being changed. It isn't some random trump.
It is the LAST TRUMP. The further est TRUMP out.
None to follow . The end of the age.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
this sets the TIME. Not some JEWISH FEAST DAY.
ISN"T
PRE TRIB JUST FOR THE CHURCH
WHICH HAS NO JEWS?
How then does the JEWISH feast days regulate the trumps? Just all over the place to what ever verse or thought jumps up.
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
WHEN all have bodies that can ONLY BE KILLED IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. That doesn't take place till the end when Christ returns with armies as KING OF KING AND LORD OF LORDS.
It is the LAST TRUMP. The further est TRUMP out.
None to follow . The end of the age.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
this sets the TIME. Not some JEWISH FEAST DAY.
ISN"T
PRE TRIB JUST FOR THE CHURCH
WHICH HAS NO JEWS?
How then does the JEWISH feast days regulate the trumps? Just all over the place to what ever verse or thought jumps up.
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
WHEN all have bodies that can ONLY BE KILLED IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. That doesn't take place till the end when Christ returns with armies as KING OF KING AND LORD OF LORDS.
You are simply incorrect here. The Dead that are raised are those in Christ, the dead that are judged are raised after the 1000 year reign of Christ during the 2nd Resurrection.
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (THIS UNDERLINED PORTION, points to verse 4 above, which like the Pre Trib Rapture is a part of the "FIRST RESURRECTION" or 1.) Those raised in Christ and 2.) Those Dead Wicked raised 1000 years later, to be judged and burned as seen below)
Rev. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The WICKED DEAD are raise later on, after the 1000 year rein, not in 1 Cor. 15, those are the Dead in Christ. People are not in Heaven as we speak, the Righteous are all judged at the Marriage to the Lamb unless they are Israel, then the are raised at the very end because they are the Fathers Bride of old.
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (THIS UNDERLINED PORTION, points to verse 4 above, which like the Pre Trib Rapture is a part of the "FIRST RESURRECTION" or 1.) Those raised in Christ and 2.) Those Dead Wicked raised 1000 years later, to be judged and burned as seen below)
Rev. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The WICKED DEAD are raise later on, after the 1000 year rein, not in 1 Cor. 15, those are the Dead in Christ. People are not in Heaven as we speak, the Righteous are all judged at the Marriage to the Lamb unless they are Israel, then the are raised at the very end because they are the Fathers Bride of old.
No, the Church has Jews like Paul, Peter and Stephen, etc. etc.
Its not about the Judgment Trumps, its about the Feast of Trumps which always ENDED the Harvest, the problem is you were led down a wrong path by people who shouldn't be teaching the bible.
The TRUMP Pail spoke of was the ENDING of the Harvest (Church Age).
Its not about the Judgment Trumps, its about the Feast of Trumps which always ENDED the Harvest, the problem is you were led down a wrong path by people who shouldn't be teaching the bible.
The TRUMP Pail spoke of was the ENDING of the Harvest (Church Age).
FreeGrace2 said:
So then, how one lives and believes doesn't matter since they will simply cease to exist? That's what atheists believe as well.
Everyone uses verses to support their position. The problem is when said verses DON'T support their position. They only think they do.
Again, you completely miss the point. Those who don't believe end up in non-existence. How is that a negative consequence?
So basically, the nonsensical annihilation theory rewards believers with heaven and there is no consequence for unbelievers.
None whatsoever. Unless one counts the time of physical death to the GWT judgment as a consequence.
Oh, and the nutty soul sleep theory has everyone at a slumber party, so that removes any consequence for unbelievers.
So then, how one lives and believes doesn't matter since they will simply cease to exist? That's what atheists believe as well.
Everyone uses verses to support their position. The problem is when said verses DON'T support their position. They only think they do.
Again, you completely miss the point. Those who don't believe end up in non-existence. How is that a negative consequence?
So basically, the nonsensical annihilation theory rewards believers with heaven and there is no consequence for unbelievers.
None whatsoever. Unless one counts the time of physical death to the GWT judgment as a consequence.
Oh, and the nutty soul sleep theory has everyone at a slumber party, so that removes any consequence for unbelievers.
FreeGrace2 said:
Get real, for heaven's sake.
Rev 1:1 speaks of literal future events. Just because John was trying to describe things that he had no context for is no reason to make up these stories (fantasies) about ALL of Revelation is "highly symbolic".
That's just a cover to be able to make up whatever the fantaziser wants to believe.
Can you rationally explain how your opinion here proves anything? But, go ahead and just keep on making up stuff.
Of course. So show me an ad hominem from my post.
Get real, for heaven's sake.
Rev 1:1 speaks of literal future events. Just because John was trying to describe things that he had no context for is no reason to make up these stories (fantasies) about ALL of Revelation is "highly symbolic".
That's just a cover to be able to make up whatever the fantaziser wants to believe.
Can you rationally explain how your opinion here proves anything? But, go ahead and just keep on making up stuff.
Of course. So show me an ad hominem from my post.
FreeGrace2 said:
Get real, for heaven's sake.
Rev 1:1 speaks of literal future events. Just because John was trying to describe things that he had no context for is no reason to make up these stories (fantasies) about ALL of Revelation is "highly symbolic".
That's just a cover to be able to make up whatever the fantaziser wants to believe.
Look.in.mirror. It'll come to you.
Get real, for heaven's sake.
Rev 1:1 speaks of literal future events. Just because John was trying to describe things that he had no context for is no reason to make up these stories (fantasies) about ALL of Revelation is "highly symbolic".
That's just a cover to be able to make up whatever the fantaziser wants to believe.
(editing timed out--reposting)
PS And 'fantaziser' and cover up'???
PS And 'fantaziser' and cover up'???
Who is being ruled and reigned over IF NOT THE DEAD who have just been raised when Christ returns? "let the dead bury their dead' meaning the 'spiritually dead' , still mortal, (didn't believe in the Messiah, believed in some other religion, never heard truth GROUPS OF those who stayed in the grave because they didn't CHOOSE LIFE). are raised from the GRAVE to an incorruptible yet mortal body to be TAUGHT for the 1000 years. The nations come to WORSHIP and those who don't don't get rain.
BELIEVERS GO TO HEAVEN, NON BELIEVERS GO TO THE GRAVE.
SO WHO IS RAISED ON THE DAY CHRIST RETURNS? NOT THE BELIEVERS AS THEY ARE RETURNING WITH CHRIST.
SO, the only ones on earth to RAISE, (notice not resurrect) are those who have been in bondage to death and those who have just been destroyed by the coming of the Lord and His armies
and those who are alive and remaining who will be changed.
THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPURE. BECAUSE NO ONE WHO BELIEVES IN IT CAN SHOW THE CHURCH BEING TAKEN TO HEAVEN AT ANY TIME, EVER.
NEVER IS A GROUP REMOVED FROM THE EARTH TO ESCAPE ANYTHING. ever as a matter of fact,
GOD LIKES TO SEE THE DEATH OF HIS SAINTS. GOD LIKES US TO BE PERFECTED WHILE WE ARE IN FLESH BODIES. PERSECUTION AND TRIBULATION AND AFFLICTION ALL WORK FOR GOOD AND GOD. God makes sure those He loves are CHASTISED.
Do you know why? Because HE IS A CONSUMING FIRE. Everything that doesn't get 'worked out here' gets worked out there. Here your 'flesh' body will suffer. You don't want to ARRIVE in heaven unless you are in the BEST STATE POSSIBLE where every kink and crooked spot has been straightened out and cleansed. You think tribulation from SATAN is rough? Compared to what would take place there, I am all about willing to take on someone I have been given power over and all the armor wisdom and knowledge necessary to over come him. Walking into heaven all crooked and dirty, not a good idea.
TRIBULATION IS A GIFT to us who LOVE AND SEEK AFTER GOD. Singe this flesh no problem, singe you incorruptible flesh, big problem.
YES, Jesus did pay the price so that we could GET INTO HEAVEN, but judgment is still coming to us all. What covers a multitude of sins? GOOD WORKS. So if I am correct, what you believe is instead of being around for the ONE TIME THROUGHOUT ALL ETERNITY in which you could really score some good works, Jesus whisks you away.
Not a good plan FOR ANY SIDE BUT SATANS.
Have you read the state of the churches you claim are being 'raptured'? I can't think of a group IN more NEED OF TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS to learn and be perfected.
Again, there is no rapture. It is not written. Jesus didn't once mention it though there were plenty of time He SHOULD HAVE. It makes Scripture null and void.
GOD gives us details on the parting of the sea and all the other wonderful works BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE BIGGEST miracle He will ever ever do for this flesh age, not one single solitary verse. Not one detail. Verses and verses that go against it. It in itself going against what God says is good for us. If it could be put in scripture it would be. If anyone could find it as a doctrine that was taught as such, they would. If they could find anything specific they would.
But instead the take apart what Christ brought together
They were separated from the circumcised now they separate themselves from them CRAZY.
They became partakes, but just for the easy parts. Yeah, that sounds like God. I am thinking some studies in the OT to find out what that NEVER CHANGES GOD is all about.
Apparently the bible is written to those who will either NEVER NEED IT OR NEVER READ IT.
GOD gives us details on the parting of the sea and all the other wonderful works BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE BIGGEST miracle He will ever ever do for this flesh age, not one single solitary verse. Not one detail. Verses and verses that go against it. It in itself going against what God says is good for us. If it could be put in scripture it would be. If anyone could find it as a doctrine that was taught as such, they would. If they could find anything specific they would.
But instead the take apart what Christ brought together
They were separated from the circumcised now they separate themselves from them CRAZY.
They became partakes, but just for the easy parts. Yeah, that sounds like God. I am thinking some studies in the OT to find out what that NEVER CHANGES GOD is all about.
Apparently the bible is written to those who will either NEVER NEED IT OR NEVER READ IT.