Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
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You have hardened your heart in the sin of pride and unbelief.
It is written: "But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’
For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”
Then some of the scribes answered and said, “Teacher, You have spoken well.”
Even some scribes recognized that Christ spoke Truth according to the Scripture.
How much more should you bend your knee before HIM and Love the Lord God with all your heart mind soul and strength.
It is written: "But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’
For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”
Then some of the scribes answered and said, “Teacher, You have spoken well.”
Even some scribes recognized that Christ spoke Truth according to the Scripture.
How much more should you bend your knee before HIM and Love the Lord God with all your heart mind soul and strength.
Hey, I have a chiasm for you.
A. good courage
B. absent from the Lord = at home in the body
X. we walk by faith
B. absent from the body = at home with the Lord
A. good courage
“Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight— we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 5:6–8)
A. good courage
B. absent from the Lord = at home in the body
X. we walk by faith
B. absent from the body = at home with the Lord
A. good courage
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To the soul sleepers and soul annihilators on this thread.
These 2 theories create a huge unanswered question for those who push them.
If the soul sleeps at physical death, until the resurrection, either for the saved or for the unsaved, and the souls of unbelievers will be annihilated at the GWT judgment, then please answer this question.
Why did Jesus come to earth and die for everyone? And what, specifically, does He save anyone FROM? John 1:29 and 4:42 and 1 Tim 4:10 and 1 John 4:14 call Jesus the Savior of the world.
So, what does He save us FROM?
Because, here's the deal, if your 2 theories are accurate.
Believers will eventually wake up and go to heaven.
Unbelievers can live like hell, then go to sleep at death (no consequences for their behavior) and be resurrected to appear at the GWT judgment. And then be cast into the lake of fire and cease to exist. Again, no consequences for their behavior.
So basically, these theories remove ANY consequences for sinful, rebellious behavior after death. There is sleep and then ceasing to exist.
So, basically, these theories are unbiblical. They remove ANY reason for even thinking one needs to be saved!!!!
So, what specifically does Jesus save us from? If you claim that He saves us from ceasing to exist, why would ceasing to exist even be a problem that we need to be saved from?
Is there any suffering, whether mental, emotional or physical, that is experienced for anyone who ceases to exist? No, there isn't.
Obviously nothing, if the 2 theories are correct.
These 2 theories create a huge unanswered question for those who push them.
If the soul sleeps at physical death, until the resurrection, either for the saved or for the unsaved, and the souls of unbelievers will be annihilated at the GWT judgment, then please answer this question.
Why did Jesus come to earth and die for everyone? And what, specifically, does He save anyone FROM? John 1:29 and 4:42 and 1 Tim 4:10 and 1 John 4:14 call Jesus the Savior of the world.
So, what does He save us FROM?
Because, here's the deal, if your 2 theories are accurate.
Believers will eventually wake up and go to heaven.
Unbelievers can live like hell, then go to sleep at death (no consequences for their behavior) and be resurrected to appear at the GWT judgment. And then be cast into the lake of fire and cease to exist. Again, no consequences for their behavior.
So basically, these theories remove ANY consequences for sinful, rebellious behavior after death. There is sleep and then ceasing to exist.
So, basically, these theories are unbiblical. They remove ANY reason for even thinking one needs to be saved!!!!
So, what specifically does Jesus save us from? If you claim that He saves us from ceasing to exist, why would ceasing to exist even be a problem that we need to be saved from?
Is there any suffering, whether mental, emotional or physical, that is experienced for anyone who ceases to exist? No, there isn't.
Obviously nothing, if the 2 theories are correct.
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I guess the "immortal soul" crowd thinks dead Saints in heaven have no choice but to come at the beck and call of demons when summoned by them, right? 
And, you choose not to believe the wisest man who ever lived when he said "the dead know not anything"?
IT WAS A DEMONIC FAMILIAR SPIRIT IMPERSONATING SAMUEL.
And, you choose not to believe the wisest man who ever lived when he said "the dead know not anything"? IT WAS A DEMONIC FAMILIAR SPIRIT IMPERSONATING SAMUEL.
1 Samuel 28
3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.
4 And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa.
5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.
6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
Leviticus 19:26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.
Leviticus 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
Leviticus 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.
Leviticus 19:29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.
Leviticus 19:30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:32 Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the LORD.
Leviticus 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
Isaiah 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Isaiah 8:17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.
Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Revelation 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Are you using what a 'familiar spirit' has brought up or forth or whatever, as the defense of your position? God talks about these familiar spirits and NEVER is it good. Maybe a re thinking of that belief is called for. MUCH Scripture has been given here to pray about.
Revelation 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Are you using what a 'familiar spirit' has brought up or forth or whatever, as the defense of your position? God talks about these familiar spirits and NEVER is it good. Maybe a re thinking of that belief is called for. MUCH Scripture has been given here to pray about.
The spiritually dead while living and breathing and walking on the earth WALK IN DARKNESS AND know nothing. And when the spiritually dead die and are buried and in the grave, they still know nothing.
Those who died UNDER THE LAW without faith SUFFERED THE SAME KIND OF DEATH, HENCE THE NEED FOR THE WORK OF CHRIST AND THE NEW COVENANT. HOW IS THIS GETTING MISSED HERE?
THIS IS ONE OF THE BEST THINGS ABOUT BEING A CHRISTIAN
Hebrews 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in Him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given Me.
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
The spiritually alive walking in the light know. And when they PASS though death (shed the flesh) they continue knowing because they have ACCEPTED THE GIFT OF SALVATION. They are not like the dead. CHOOSE LIFE or DEATH
WHAT the law could not do FORGIVE, CHRIST can/did/does. Why is that important? Because no one could be perfect under the law and so THEY DIED IN SIN AND WERE BOUND BY DEATH.
Those who DIED in faith or WENT on to heaven in transfigurations and Moses knew, but NOT TILL 'UNDER GRACE' did the 'graves open' FOR the rest.
Is the work of Jesus on the cross not understood?
Deuteronomy 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deuteronomy 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deuteronomy 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey His voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto Him: for He is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
It is a truth as it stands yet with more wisdom and knowledge of Gods words there are deeper truths within.
PRAISE YE THE LORD!!!
Those who died UNDER THE LAW without faith SUFFERED THE SAME KIND OF DEATH, HENCE THE NEED FOR THE WORK OF CHRIST AND THE NEW COVENANT. HOW IS THIS GETTING MISSED HERE?
THIS IS ONE OF THE BEST THINGS ABOUT BEING A CHRISTIAN
Hebrews 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in Him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given Me.
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
The spiritually alive walking in the light know. And when they PASS though death (shed the flesh) they continue knowing because they have ACCEPTED THE GIFT OF SALVATION. They are not like the dead. CHOOSE LIFE or DEATH
WHAT the law could not do FORGIVE, CHRIST can/did/does. Why is that important? Because no one could be perfect under the law and so THEY DIED IN SIN AND WERE BOUND BY DEATH.
Those who DIED in faith or WENT on to heaven in transfigurations and Moses knew, but NOT TILL 'UNDER GRACE' did the 'graves open' FOR the rest.
Is the work of Jesus on the cross not understood?
Deuteronomy 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deuteronomy 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deuteronomy 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey His voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto Him: for He is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
It is a truth as it stands yet with more wisdom and knowledge of Gods words there are deeper truths within.
PRAISE YE THE LORD!!!
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I wouldn't call myself a soul sleeper, but I do believe the Bible is referring to literal sleep in 1 Thess. 4:14. Rev 6:11 and Rev. 14:13 use the word "rest" and an acceptable translation for that is repose according to the Strong's concordance; it can mean sleep. That's just sola scriptura.
I think the most straight forward answer is in John 3:16-17. Obviously this passage might be skewed by personal interpretation, but I ask that you just try to accept what the passage literally says.
John 3:16-17 KJV
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
God sent His son to save the world. Those who believe in Him will have everlasting life. Those who don't believe in Him will perish. God sent His sent His Son to save people from being destroyed.
I think it's more accurate to say that they will sleep sometimes, but not necessarily all of the time. See Rev 6:11 and Rev. 14:13.
Yes, that's accurate. Unbelievers aren't judged and sentenced prior to the GWTJ. There's no verse about a pre-judgement punishment that I'm aware of. That would mean people from thousands of years ago are currently suffering longer for the same crimes than those who died thousands of years later. That's no fair. That's why there is a summary judgement called the GWTJ.
John 5:28-29
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
A resurrection of damnation means a resurrection to judgement. Damnation means judgement.
I think your premise is built on false assumptions. Which verse says that after people die they immediately go to punishment?
But the Bible says we are saved in order to have eternal life and not be put to death; that's the reason.
Saved from death.
I think the most straight forward answer is in John 3:16-17. Obviously this passage might be skewed by personal interpretation, but I ask that you just try to accept what the passage literally says.
John 3:16-17 KJV
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
God sent His son to save the world. Those who believe in Him will have everlasting life. Those who don't believe in Him will perish. God sent His sent His Son to save people from being destroyed.
I think it's more accurate to say that they will sleep sometimes, but not necessarily all of the time. See Rev 6:11 and Rev. 14:13.
Yes, that's accurate. Unbelievers aren't judged and sentenced prior to the GWTJ. There's no verse about a pre-judgement punishment that I'm aware of. That would mean people from thousands of years ago are currently suffering longer for the same crimes than those who died thousands of years later. That's no fair. That's why there is a summary judgement called the GWTJ.
John 5:28-29
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
A resurrection of damnation means a resurrection to judgement. Damnation means judgement.
I think your premise is built on false assumptions. Which verse says that after people die they immediately go to punishment?
But the Bible says we are saved in order to have eternal life and not be put to death; that's the reason.
Saved from death.
I don't make anything up. Solomon says the dead have nothing to do with anything done on Earth (Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV), so I choose to believe the wisest man who ever lived.
It could only have been a demonic apparition and was called "Samuel" because it took on the "familiar" likeness of Samuel; hence the name "familiar spirit". Also, I don't need the Bible to tell me satanic witches don't have power over God's faithful, especially faithful hero prophets like Samuel.
It could only have been a demonic apparition and was called "Samuel" because it took on the "familiar" likeness of Samuel; hence the name "familiar spirit". Also, I don't need the Bible to tell me satanic witches don't have power over God's faithful, especially faithful hero prophets like Samuel.
You said: "I think your premise is built on false assumptions. Which verse says that after people die they immediately go to punishment?"
Judgment is complete now and will be continued at the GWT and Beyond.
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”
verdict
vûr′dĭkt
noun
Judgment is complete now and will be continued at the GWT and Beyond.
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”
verdict
vûr′dĭkt
noun
- The decision of the jury after the trial of a case.
- An expressed conclusion; a judgment or opinion.
- In law, the answer of a jury given to the court concerning any matter of fact in any cause, civil or criminal, committed to their trial and examination
The "inner man" refers to the "I" the "ego" the "self" the "me" - it's what results from the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.
It ceases to be when this union is broken and the Spirit returns to God and the Body to dust. Our hope should be in the resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:18 KJV) not Serpent lies about "thou shalt now surely die".
"Oh, Eve, you'll die all right....but not surely....you're going to continue to exist but on another, higher plane of existence JUST LIKE GOD."
Everybody wants so desperately to be God...celebrities, occult Luciferians and Satanists....and Christians too.
It ceases to be when this union is broken and the Spirit returns to God and the Body to dust. Our hope should be in the resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:18 KJV) not Serpent lies about "thou shalt now surely die".
"Oh, Eve, you'll die all right....but not surely....you're going to continue to exist but on another, higher plane of existence JUST LIKE GOD."
Everybody wants so desperately to be God...celebrities, occult Luciferians and Satanists....and Christians too.