The Wet Paint Principle (Freedom from sin)

[justbyfaith]

May I ask which denomination you are

I currently attend a Calvary Chapel but have a background with the Oneness Pentecostals.

In support of my statement I refer you to Acts 11:22-24, Galatians 5:22-23.

Which statement I also said to you under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Faithiskey1]

I currently attend a Calvary Chapel but have a background with the Oneness Pentecostals.

In support of my statement I refer you to Acts 11:22-24, Galatians 5:22-23.

Ah I see. I was raised AOG Pentecostal. I could give you a testimony, but it would take a long time to write out and I doubt it would interest you that much. Yes, I know Gal5:22&23 and have often quoted those verses myself.

 

[Faithiskey1]

I currently attend a Calvary Chapel but have a background with the Oneness Pentecostals.

In support of my statement I refer you to Acts 11:22-24, Galatians 5:22-23.

Which statement I also said to you under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

I read of someone once. He was addicted to pornography on the internet. He dreaded going away on business and leaving his family behind, for it always ended up the same, internet porn on his laptop. One day he joined a church, where it was taught Jesus died for all your sins, past, present and future. He dared to believe it. In a short time, while he believed that he was completely delivered from internet porn. Here's the thing, if he had heard you preaching he never could have seen victory over the porn, for you would have continuously given him bible verses stressing christians must obey the law, they are expected not to commit sin. He would not have been freed that way

 

[justbyfaith]

I read of someone once. He was addicted to pornography on the internet. He dreaded going away on business and leaving his family behind, for it always ended up the same, internet porn on his laptop. One day he joined a church, where it was taught Jesus died for all your sins, past, present and future. He dared to believe it. In a short time, while he believed that he was completely delivered from internet porn. Here's the thing, if he had heard you preaching he never could have seen victory over the porn, for you would have continuously given him bible verses stressing christians must obey the law, they are expected not to commit sin. He would not have been freed that way

He may indeed have been freed that way though it may have taken a little longer and the results would have been more permanent.

For it is written,

Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25, But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 

[Faithiskey1]

At the age of ten I responded to an altar call. I had been a normal healthy kid before I did so, but everything was about to change. The first big difference I noticed was, I became aware of my faults/sins in a way I never had previously (yes, even at that age!) I was determined to follow Christ and live a pure and holy life, for that is how in my heart I wanted to live. But as I now had the law within me, I could not hide from that law. If I lived as I had previously lived, I would be going against it. At times I got angry, and knew this was wrong, it was going against God’s moral law(didn’t reason it that way that young) so I had to stop being angry. I had unkind thoughts about some others, that was wrong also. I didn’t love many others as I should, that was wrong too. And I had a conscience about not always acting as I should act. In fact, I was starting to become much less happy than I had been before I made a commitment to Christ, for now I was burdened by my imperfections as I had not previously been.

Then I reached puberty, and along came impure thoughts. I so much did not want them, I knew they were sin (it was breaking the moral law inside of me) but no matter how hard I tried to resist them, they would not stop. In truth, I feared them, they could send me to hell, for Christians must live a life of obeying God, you cannot expect to attain heaven if you live a life of sin. The more I feared those thoughts, the more I feared they could send me to hell, the worse they got. I was not a happy young man anymore. I was guilt ridden by my inability to obey God, and live a pure and holy life for him. I started to feel condemned, and all the time the sin got worse. On the outside, I could still appear to be living a very good and holy life, but the inside was completely different. I was despondant, and felt it was all hopeless, I would end up in hell because I could not live as others did I saw in church on Sundays(AOG church). For I imagined they were afflicted with none of the faults I had, they constantly told me how I should live my life, and we must obey God/his laws. They dressed immaculately, the women wore expensive hats, and after the service I received a handshake, a Godply smile and a relevant scripture verse if it was felt neccessary. Surely these people were obeying God's laws whilst I on the inside was not.

In the end, I walked away from the church. I refused to be a hypocrite, I could not live as Christians should live. I certainly could not be righteous before God by obeying his good and holy laws. I was a condemned sinner who would be cast into hell.

Looking back at that time, how can I describe it? I had felt alive once before the law came to me as it did, for there was no condemnation then, but when it did come, sin(consciousness) sprang to life and I died/felt condemned. The commandment that I believed was ordained to life/enable me to be a Christian and attain to heaven(if I obeyed it), instead brought death/condemnation (for I could not keep it). Through my knowledge of the commandments all manner of sin was aroused in me. For sin took occasion of the commandment to arouse all manner of concupiscence in me. Was the law death for me? No, the law itself is holy, just and good, but sin took occasion of what was holy, just and good to make me exccedingly sinfull, and through it condemn me. (Rom7:7-13) I had tried to attain to heaven as Saul the Pharisee did and got the same result he did.



Fortunately for me, a few years later someone gave me a book, and in it was a chapter on Paul’s message of grace. I was stunned by what I read. I could have no righteousnerss of obeying God’s laws. No one had ever told me that before in churches. But as it was plainly written I believed it. But what of the sin? I didn’t want it for I was born again. I had been a slave to breaking the commandment: ‘Thou shalt not covet’ where masturbation was concerned for six years. It only got worse when I believed such sin could send me to hell. But now I gave it to God and trusted I was saved because Jesus was my righteousness before him, I had no other. For three days the masturbation continued, I was breaking God’s moral law(one of the ten commandments), however, for the first time in my life I did not let myself believe it condemned me, I trusted I was righteous in Gods sight because Jesus died for me. Those three days were so hard, I had to discard logic and just cling to faith in Christ. A voice relentlessly told me in my head, I was just faking christianity, I was a hypocrite, I could not be saved due to what I was doing. And my rational mind agreed with that voice. But I kept looking to Christ and trusting him, clinging to what Paul wrote, logic was cast aside, only faith remained. On the fourth day, this sin I had been a slave to for six years stopped. While I lived under righteousness of observing the law it only got worse. Paul wrote:

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law(of righteousness) but under grace(righteousness of faith in Christ) Rom 6:14 But few it seems dare to actually believe it. For as Jesus said:

Many after drinking the old wine don’t want the new, for they say ‘the old is better’ Luke5:39

 

[justbyfaith]

Good testimony.

I would say that the law about masturbation convicted you as a sinner and that you were not saved until you began to rely on grace so that sin would no longer have dominion over you. The law about masturbation was a schoolmaster to lead you to Christ. It brought you to the place of being discontented with your sins. You said with Paul, "Wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

It is a common teaching that I put forth that is as follows.

If you have faith in Christ, you have an unshakable identity in Christ...that you are righteous...even if you blow it (Romans 4:5).

Now, the exhortation is, "Go and live like you have this identity in reality and not just in name only (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

 

[Faithiskey1]

Good testimony.

I would say that the law about masturbation convicted you as a sinner and that you were not saved until you began to rely on grace so that sin would no longer have dominion over you. The law about masturbation was a schoolmaster to lead you to Christ. It brought you to the place of being discontented with your sins. You said with Paul, "Wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

It is a common teaching that I put forth that is as follows.

If you have faith in Christ, you have an unshakable identity in Christ...that you are righteous...even if you blow it (Romans 4:5).

Now, the exhortation is, "Go and live like you have this identity in reality and not just in name only (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

But that church I grew up in preached exactly the same as you do now, no difference. I knew I had been saved under a righteousness of faith in Christ, I did nothing to earn or deserve it. However, once I was saved, I in effect followed your way. The law must be perfectly obeyed to remain a christian. It doesn't work. I had followed the way of Saul the Pharisee, and so got exactly the same outcome he did. His terstimony in rom7:7-13 is my testimony also

 

[justbyfaith]

Friend, I do not believe that we maintain our salvation through our performance.

I believe that our performance will be affected as we realize salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am asking the following as a question, admitting that I myself may be confused by the scripture in question.

Heb 10:26, For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28, He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29, Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30, For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31, It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Since sin is the transgression of the law; and there is no more sacrifice for sins if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth; and the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross is a sacrifice for sins;

What do you conclude by this passage?

If someone willfully sins after receiving the knowledge of the truth, do they retain salvation?

Keeping in mind that sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4)?

 

[Faithiskey1]

Friend, I do not believe that we maintain our salvation through our performance.

I believe that our performance will be affected as we realize salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

But whether you realise it or not that is your reality. For you continually state we need to fully, or perfectly obey the law to remain justified

 

[Faithiskey1]

I am asking the following as a question, admitting that I myself may be confused by the scripture in question.

Heb 10:26, For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28, He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29, Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30, For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31, It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Since sin is the transgression of the law; and there is no more sacrifice for sins if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth; and the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross is a sacrifice for sins;

What do you conclude by this passage?

If someone willfully sins after receiving the knowledge of the truth, do they retain salvation?

Keeping in mind that sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4)?

Grace is such a hard thing for people to understand. I have met a lot of christians in my time, and from many different denominations. The ones who most earnestly quote law keeping, and to an extremely high degree, and post the verses you have here, never live up to what they state. I am not speaking of you, I can't I don't know you, I am speaking of personal exp-erience, I will give you a few examples if you like. And, to be honest, many of them would be described in your above verses
However, I have also met many people who bvelieve-in their hearts all their sins were paid for at Calvary, past, present and future. They do not insist on law keeping to remain saved, or quote what you are quoting now. In my experience, these people are the most Godly people I have ever met.
People who know in their hearts they are secure forever solely based on what Christ did for them at Calvary, live the most God fearing lives. They do not need those verses from hebrews. Others do

 

[Faithiskey1]

How can I put this more clearly. Those who most stress ''you must obey the ten commandments'' have a problem, love is the first casualty of such an approach. I went to a church once. A women was there, she dressed immaculately, her bible was always with her. When the minister said something she approved of she gave out a hearty ''amen''. And she insisted God's laws must be obeyed. On and on she went about obeying the TC. I have to say, if I had met her in the church I grew up in, it would made me feel even more guilty I could not live as Godly a life as she appeared to live. Anyway, I found out she was having multiple affairs. I said to her one day ''How can you do that, you are breaking the TC. She shrugged her shoulders and said. ''No ones perfect and all sin is equal''


Its those who stress law for continued salvation who need your hebrews quotes. When I have told that story to people who know Jesus died for all their sins/transgressions of the law, past, present and future they shake their heads in bewilderment. As I said, your verses from hebrews are not needed by them

I could give you, many, many more examples. The power to dramatically change lives comes from knowing the law cannot condemn you. If you believe you must nigh on perfectly obey it to remain saved, you never can believe that

 

[justbyfaith]

Grace is such a hard thing for people to understand.

Yes indeed.

For it is written,

1Pe 5:10, But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
1Pe 5:11, To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1Pe 5:12, By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.

 

[justbyfaith]

I would suggest that you read over the presiding document a few more times ("The Wet Paint Principle")...

Because I think that you are misunderstanding my position.

If you take and understand the document as a whole I think that it will get rid of your confusion.

 

[Faithiskey1]

You see, grace is too hard to understand for the natural mind, only the Holy S[pirit can turn on the light. Therefore, many say things like ''well of course you are saved under a righteousness of faith in Christ but it is your duty as a believer to obey the law, and obey it to a high degree. for christians have no licence to sin''

That is what the rational mind of man will always rationalise, you get what you earn, you get what you deserve. The rational mind of man cannot accept a salvation which depends on what Christ has done and not what you must do.
And so, in people who have been shown the light by the Spirit they are truly blessed, and they are the ones who do not need those warnings from Hebrews or other places. For the power is in the truth, not a watered down version of it

 

[justbyfaith]

How can I put this more clearly. Those who most stress ''you must obey the ten commandments'' have a problem, love is the first casualty of such an approach.

Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25, But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 

[justbyfaith]

You see, grace is too hard to understand for the natural mind, only the Holy S[pirit can turn on the light. Therefore, many say things like ''well of course you are saved under a righteousness of faith in Christ but it is your duty as a believer to obey the law, and obey it to a high degree. for christians have no licence to sin''

That is what the rational mind of man will always rationalise, you get what you earn, you get what you deserve. The rational mind of man cannot accept a salvation which depends on what Christ has done and not what you must do.
And so, in people who have been shown the light by the Spirit they are truly blessed, and they are the ones who do not need those warnings from Hebrews or other places. For the power is in the truth, not a watered down version of it

Jesus came to "save His people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21); even to "redeem us from all iniquity" (Titus 2:14).

This is the work of Christ...not only justification...but sanctification also.

2Co 5:17, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[Faithiskey1]

Jesus came to "save His people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21); even to "redeem us from all iniquity" (Titus 2:14).

This is the work of Christ...not only justification...but sanctification also.

2Co 5:17, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

In all sincerity, I cannot understand why many are so fixated with ‘’the ten commandments’’ as it were. That term speaks of an external law engraved in stone. The new covenant is very different to that. The core foundation upon which the new covenant stands is twofold, there is no new covenant without both:



This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b]

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.

Heb10:16&17



Note which comes first. The law God wants you to follow is written in your mind once you come into the covenant. In other words, you instinctively in your mind know the basics of how God wants you to live. So you don’t need to fixate on an external written down law do you. If something is in my mind, I don’t have to read up, focus on something external to me and look to it, so I may try to follow it. The law is also in your heart. Meaning, in your heart you want to live as God desires you to live. Some say if you remove righteousness of obeying the law, you give a believer a licence to sin. That is utterly impossible for the born again Christian who has the law in their heart and mind. For though righteousness of obeying the law is removed, you in your heart, still want to follow what has been placed there. I believe I am righteous, from first to last by faith in Christ, not obeying the law, but at the same time, I could never believe that gives me a licence to live as I like. And when we fail, as we all do, our conscience will be seered, and we will have no rest and no peace until we come before your heavenly Father and tell him we are sorry for our folly, only then will we get your peace back.

The penalty of sin was removed, for Christ died for our sins, but you only get a saviour from sin, because the holy, just and righteous law God wants you to follow are now a part of the person you are. And they will never be removed form your most inward parts. And in that fact a licence to sin is removed from the born again believer, in whom dwells the Holy Spirit. God is not stupid, he made a perfect covenant, there are no holes in it

People who insist you must obey the ten commandments if you want to attain to heaven should consider Matthew7:2

The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you.



Paul said the ten commandments are the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. If anyone thinks they fully obey the letter of the ten commandments they do not understand what that letter demands

 

[justbyfaith]

People who insist you must obey the ten commandments if you want to attain to heaven should consider Matthew7:2

You should know that I am not one of the people who says that.

 

[Faithiskey1]

Jesus came to "save His people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21); even to "redeem us from all iniquity" (Titus 2:14).

This is the work of Christ...not only justification...but sanctification also.

2Co 5:17, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

And to you, the above verses speak of perfectly obeying the law-yes? I grew up with all of this. I was a trusting innocent young person. I believed the people preaching this actually practiced what they preached. Now, decades later I see how wrong I was.