Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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FreeGrace2 said:
Please stop this. you know very well what I've said.
Why won't you acknowledge the verses I've quoted and prove to me that they don't teach that election is to service?
Of course you don't. And that is the ENTIRE PROBLEM here. You just won't face the verse that SAY that election is to service. So you avoid them like a plague.
To avoid a verse is basically the SAME as rejecting them. They REFUTE you and you know it.
I reject the errors of calvinism, which is NOT THE TRUTH of Scripture.
Here's another verse that shows what election is to:
Acts 10:41 - He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
So, clearly, God chose or elected certain believers to witness the resurrected Christ.
And you STILL don't have any verse showing that election is to salvation.
Please stop this. you know very well what I've said.
Why won't you acknowledge the verses I've quoted and prove to me that they don't teach that election is to service?
Of course you don't. And that is the ENTIRE PROBLEM here. You just won't face the verse that SAY that election is to service. So you avoid them like a plague.
To avoid a verse is basically the SAME as rejecting them. They REFUTE you and you know it.
I reject the errors of calvinism, which is NOT THE TRUTH of Scripture.
Here's another verse that shows what election is to:
Acts 10:41 - He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
So, clearly, God chose or elected certain believers to witness the resurrected Christ.
And you STILL don't have any verse showing that election is to salvation.
So, your point is that those of the above have to save themselves by giving to themselves belief (if they could), which according to Christ they can't? So, your belief is that we are to save ourselves, and by that, remove the role of Savior from Christ Himself? Really?
Anyway, the term "saved" isn't the saved you have in mind. It is the salvation of the following:
[1Co 5:5 KJV] 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[1Co 15:52-54 KJV]
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Two types of references to salvation exist within the Bible: 1) positionally saved at the time of being placed under the authority of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and taken from the law of sin and death; that is, being saved spiritually and judgmentally (this happens to people individually throughout time), and 2) when, at the end of time, actual physical salvation occurs (see 1 Co 15:52 - 54 above) for all of those who had previously been saved spiritually. The salvation being referenced in Luke 8:12 and 1 Co 5:5, 15: 52 - 54, is of the latter.
Anyway, the term "saved" isn't the saved you have in mind. It is the salvation of the following:
[1Co 5:5 KJV] 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[1Co 15:52-54 KJV]
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Two types of references to salvation exist within the Bible: 1) positionally saved at the time of being placed under the authority of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and taken from the law of sin and death; that is, being saved spiritually and judgmentally (this happens to people individually throughout time), and 2) when, at the end of time, actual physical salvation occurs (see 1 Co 15:52 - 54 above) for all of those who had previously been saved spiritually. The salvation being referenced in Luke 8:12 and 1 Co 5:5, 15: 52 - 54, is of the latter.
nope ... Abraham's faith:
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham
I stated that all descendants of Adam have faith ... that's what I believe.
Even atheists have faith. The issue is not "do you have faith". The issue is in what you place your faith.
Atheists believe the lie that there is no God. They don't just "think" there is no God ... they actually believe there is no God.
Sometimes truth is truth without that "truth" being the Lord Jesus Christ. When I say the sky is blue ... that is truth and it will not save your soul.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon concerning the word "truth" in Romans 1:18:
Thayer's Greek Lexicon concerning the word "truth" in John 14:6:
Thayer's makes a distinction between the way the word "truth" is used in Romans 1:18 and the way the word "truth" is used in John 14:6.
What Romans 1:18 is saying is that truth is spoken to some people and they restrain the truth ... they suppress and hinder the truth from hitting their heart which is where God brings increase (1 Cor 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase).
Romans 1:18 is not saying that God withholds anything from those who restrain the truth before they hear the truth. Those who restrain the truth actively reject the truth. They do it to themselves.
Prior to believing, those who do not restrain the truth are not given something that God withholds from those who restrain the truth.
Romans 10:17 tells us faith by hearing and hearing by Word of God.
In Genesis 15:1-6 we read that God spoke to Abraham and Abraham believed God.
Abraham heard God's Word ... Abraham did not suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... Abraham believed what God told him ... Abraham's faith resulted in God counting Abraham's faith to Abraham in righteousness.
Genesis 15:6 And [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and [God] counted it to [Abraham] for righteousness.
[quote="rogerg][Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.[/quote]
In Romans 4:9, the circumcision refers to Jews ... the uncircumcision refers to gentiles. The point is that God imputed righteousness to Abraham before Abraham received the covenant of circumcision. So God had in mind not only Jews being blessed by the Lord Jesus Christ, but also gentiles ... just as God told Abraham all the nations of the earth shall be blessed. God is the God of the Jews as well as the gentiles.
Genesis 15:6 where God counted the faith of Abraham to him for righteousness occurred years before Genesis 17:10-27 where Abraham entered into covenant of circumcision. Genesis 15:6 occurs prior to the birth of Ishmael and Ishmael was 13 years old when he was circumcised. So we know there was at least 13 years between Genesis 15 and the time Abraham was circumcised ... and we can figure close to 14 years when we take into consideration the gestation period ... and even longer because Sarah had to talk Abraham into having a child with Hagar.
When you read Rom 4:16, recall what you read in Rom 4:5 ... that faith is not works.
vs 5 - to him that worketh not, but believeth ... his faith is counted for righteousness.
vs 16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace
The reason righteousness by faith is by grace is because faith is not works.
This is a non-issue, rogerg. We all believe that salvation is wholly of God. I don't know why you continue to argue this point. You obviously believe that faith is works and you have been shown in Scripture that faith is not works. Believe what is written in Scripture. Faith is not works.
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham
I stated that all descendants of Adam have faith ... that's what I believe.
Even atheists have faith. The issue is not "do you have faith". The issue is in what you place your faith.
Atheists believe the lie that there is no God. They don't just "think" there is no God ... they actually believe there is no God.
Sometimes truth is truth without that "truth" being the Lord Jesus Christ. When I say the sky is blue ... that is truth and it will not save your soul.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon concerning the word "truth" in Romans 1:18:
2. In reference to religion, the word denotes what is true in things appertaining to God and the duties of man, (`moral and religions truth'); and that a. with the greatest latitude, in the sceptical question τί ἐστιν ἀλήθεια, John 18:38;
b. the true notions of God which are open to human reason without his supernatural intervention: Romans 1:18
Thayer's Greek Lexicon concerning the word "truth" in John 14:6:
c. "the truth, as taught in the Christian religion, respecting God and the execution of his purposes through Christ, and respecting the duties of man," opposed alike to the superstitions of the Gentiles and the inventions of the Jews, and to the corrupt opinions and precepts of false teachers even among Christians: ἡ ἀλήθεια τοῦεὐαγγελίου the truth which is the gospel or which the gospel presents ... I am he in whom the truth is summed up and impersonated, John 14:6
Thayer's makes a distinction between the way the word "truth" is used in Romans 1:18 and the way the word "truth" is used in John 14:6.
What Romans 1:18 is saying is that truth is spoken to some people and they restrain the truth ... they suppress and hinder the truth from hitting their heart which is where God brings increase (1 Cor 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase).
Romans 1:18 is not saying that God withholds anything from those who restrain the truth before they hear the truth. Those who restrain the truth actively reject the truth. They do it to themselves.
Prior to believing, those who do not restrain the truth are not given something that God withholds from those who restrain the truth.
Romans 10:17 tells us faith by hearing and hearing by Word of God.
In Genesis 15:1-6 we read that God spoke to Abraham and Abraham believed God.
Abraham heard God's Word ... Abraham did not suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... Abraham believed what God told him ... Abraham's faith resulted in God counting Abraham's faith to Abraham in righteousness.
Genesis 15:6 And [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and [God] counted it to [Abraham] for righteousness.
[quote="rogerg][Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.[/quote]
In Romans 4:9, the circumcision refers to Jews ... the uncircumcision refers to gentiles. The point is that God imputed righteousness to Abraham before Abraham received the covenant of circumcision. So God had in mind not only Jews being blessed by the Lord Jesus Christ, but also gentiles ... just as God told Abraham all the nations of the earth shall be blessed. God is the God of the Jews as well as the gentiles.
Genesis 15:6 where God counted the faith of Abraham to him for righteousness occurred years before Genesis 17:10-27 where Abraham entered into covenant of circumcision. Genesis 15:6 occurs prior to the birth of Ishmael and Ishmael was 13 years old when he was circumcised. So we know there was at least 13 years between Genesis 15 and the time Abraham was circumcised ... and we can figure close to 14 years when we take into consideration the gestation period ... and even longer because Sarah had to talk Abraham into having a child with Hagar.
When you read Rom 4:16, recall what you read in Rom 4:5 ... that faith is not works.
vs 5 - to him that worketh not, but believeth ... his faith is counted for righteousness.
vs 16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace
The reason righteousness by faith is by grace is because faith is not works.
This is a non-issue, rogerg. We all believe that salvation is wholly of God. I don't know why you continue to argue this point. You obviously believe that faith is works and you have been shown in Scripture that faith is not works. Believe what is written in Scripture. Faith is not works.
So, to be clear here, the verses I have shared with you that clearly speak of election to be for service, you DO BELIEVE THAT??? Is that correct?
I just want to be clear on what you have "acnknowledged" and "believe".
No I don't. In fact, I believe that election is unconditional. God has chosen/elected ALL believers for service. Unconditonally chose all believers for service. Absolutely.
Please get your facts straight, rather than spew this fake news, disinformation, lies.
calvinism claims election is to salvation. But, where are the verses that say so? You STILL haven't provided ANY verse that says so.
If you can't even quote one verse that supports your belief, why do you keep holding on to it?
I just want to be clear on what you have "acnknowledged" and "believe".
No I don't. In fact, I believe that election is unconditional. God has chosen/elected ALL believers for service. Unconditonally chose all believers for service. Absolutely.
Please get your facts straight, rather than spew this fake news, disinformation, lies.
calvinism claims election is to salvation. But, where are the verses that say so? You STILL haven't provided ANY verse that says so.
If you can't even quote one verse that supports your belief, why do you keep holding on to it?
As you've quoted in the above verse: BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED
Abraham's faith was GIVEN to Abraham by God. If faith was by Abraham, how can his seed receive the same faith as he? For we are told in the verse that the promise was SURE TO ALL THE SEED! For anyone to realize the promise, they must receive the exact same faith as Abraham. The verse does not say those of the seed of Abraham must come to their own faith. It says they are of the faith of Abraham, which is a singular faith that came from God to Abraham and likewise to all of his spiritual seed (the elect).
That statement doesn't tell us anything. I guess you could say that people can have faith in something else -- various types of beliefs. But faith in Christ is the only important and significant faith.
Nope - not where salvation is concerned.
[Jhn 14:6 KJV] 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Have you not read these verses? Abraham, (and only those born-again) are able to hear God's word
[Mar 4:12 KJV]
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.
[Rom 3:10-13 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
The acquisition of faith, and faith itself, is a work.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
I already went through this and explained to you that faith was reckoned to Abraham. Faith, to be true faith, and as the Bible so states, must have works as central to it. If it was really just a faith of Abraham's doing, then it would also have to include within it the works of Abraham's doing, but we know that no one can be saved by their works (just the opposite in fact), so we can know that Abraham's faith could not have been what was in view in the verse.
The verse tells us that our faith results from the actions of the Holy Spirit.
I don't follow your point.
The "his faith" is Christ's faith, not ours, and that is what is counted for righteousness.
Works are central to faith, and therefore faith IS a work. The only time the acquiring of faith is not a work is when given/received as a gift. We are told in the Bible that faith without works is dead.
Well one of us doesn't either believe or understand Scripture, that's for sure
I believe faith is a work, but they are the works of Christ and not of ourselves
But...you've entirely missed the point. The point is that salvation and faith are gifts given SOLELY because of God's promise. If our faith were needed for any part of it, then God could not have made the promise that He did. And being God's promise, nothing can interfere with or prevent its completion, to include anything else needed from its recipients. It's really not complicated.
Here read these verses slowly, and please, think about what they're saying:
[Rom 4:16 KJV] 16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
[Gal 3:18 KJV] 18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.
[Heb 6:13 KJV] 13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
God used the faith of Christ and His grace alone. Nothing outside of that was needed nor was possible. By that, we can know that God has sworn Himself to the achieving of His own promise,
Abraham's faith was GIVEN to Abraham by God. If faith was by Abraham, how can his seed receive the same faith as he? For we are told in the verse that the promise was SURE TO ALL THE SEED! For anyone to realize the promise, they must receive the exact same faith as Abraham. The verse does not say those of the seed of Abraham must come to their own faith. It says they are of the faith of Abraham, which is a singular faith that came from God to Abraham and likewise to all of his spiritual seed (the elect).
That statement doesn't tell us anything. I guess you could say that people can have faith in something else -- various types of beliefs. But faith in Christ is the only important and significant faith.
Nope - not where salvation is concerned.
[Jhn 14:6 KJV] 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Have you not read these verses? Abraham, (and only those born-again) are able to hear God's word
[Mar 4:12 KJV]
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.
[Rom 3:10-13 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
The acquisition of faith, and faith itself, is a work.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
I already went through this and explained to you that faith was reckoned to Abraham. Faith, to be true faith, and as the Bible so states, must have works as central to it. If it was really just a faith of Abraham's doing, then it would also have to include within it the works of Abraham's doing, but we know that no one can be saved by their works (just the opposite in fact), so we can know that Abraham's faith could not have been what was in view in the verse.
The verse tells us that our faith results from the actions of the Holy Spirit.
I don't follow your point.
The "his faith" is Christ's faith, not ours, and that is what is counted for righteousness.
Works are central to faith, and therefore faith IS a work. The only time the acquiring of faith is not a work is when given/received as a gift. We are told in the Bible that faith without works is dead.
Well one of us doesn't either believe or understand Scripture, that's for sure
I believe faith is a work, but they are the works of Christ and not of ourselves
But...you've entirely missed the point. The point is that salvation and faith are gifts given SOLELY because of God's promise. If our faith were needed for any part of it, then God could not have made the promise that He did. And being God's promise, nothing can interfere with or prevent its completion, to include anything else needed from its recipients. It's really not complicated.
Here read these verses slowly, and please, think about what they're saying:
[Rom 4:16 KJV] 16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
[Gal 3:18 KJV] 18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.
[Heb 6:13 KJV] 13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
God used the faith of Christ and His grace alone. Nothing outside of that was needed nor was possible. By that, we can know that God has sworn Himself to the achieving of His own promise,
Ha, 24,000 views and 2,000 replies. It must be another Calvinist debate 
Ok I'll throw myself in. Although I am Arminian-leaning, I'm more like neither - just a Christian.
And I'll start by asking this question: If Jesus was here on earth today, and we ask Him, what should we do? All become Calvinist? or all become Armenian? What would He say?
I'm sure each side will pull in their direction. A typical human reaction "us and them". But let's look at it from a God's perspective. I think Jesus would say neither! He would say it is not your business to know this detail. If you desire to be part of the Kingdom of God, you just do as taught in the Bible, in the Sermon on the Mount for example. Mainly seek God always. And let God worry about the details like the "Elect"
What difference does it make if you're sure of the answer one way or the other? Are you going to change your ways, for example stop seeking God or reading the Bible because the answer is "this", or start reading the Bible because the answer is "that". We are wasting way too much time on this. If we had spent the time reading the scriptures instead of the 2,000 replies and many other thousand replies in other forums, we would have been in a far better standing in our spiritual walk with God!
Ok I'll throw myself in. Although I am Arminian-leaning, I'm more like neither - just a Christian.
And I'll start by asking this question: If Jesus was here on earth today, and we ask Him, what should we do? All become Calvinist? or all become Armenian? What would He say?
I'm sure each side will pull in their direction. A typical human reaction "us and them". But let's look at it from a God's perspective. I think Jesus would say neither! He would say it is not your business to know this detail. If you desire to be part of the Kingdom of God, you just do as taught in the Bible, in the Sermon on the Mount for example. Mainly seek God always. And let God worry about the details like the "Elect"
What difference does it make if you're sure of the answer one way or the other? Are you going to change your ways, for example stop seeking God or reading the Bible because the answer is "this", or start reading the Bible because the answer is "that". We are wasting way too much time on this. If we had spent the time reading the scriptures instead of the 2,000 replies and many other thousand replies in other forums, we would have been in a far better standing in our spiritual walk with God!
Thats what He means, I nver knew you Matt 7:23
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
He always knew His people He Loved Rom 11:2
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
Thats His elect Sheep Jn 10:14
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
He always knew His people He Loved Rom 11:2
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
Thats His elect Sheep Jn 10:14
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
We do what the Lord says, and believe in Him and the salvation He paid for on the cross. We didn’t live a sinless life and die on the cross, He did. We are called to believe.
Those who believe in Him will be saved.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
If You have a scripture that teaches those who do not believe in Him are saved then please post it for us, to see.
Otherwise, please repent of your “Christ-less” gospel; the “gospel” of unbelief.
JPT
Those who believe in Him will be saved.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
If You have a scripture that teaches those who do not believe in Him are saved then please post it for us, to see.
Otherwise, please repent of your “Christ-less” gospel; the “gospel” of unbelief.
JPT
I find it incredible that you and those who believe as you do, reject the doctrine of Election - that God chose those whom He would save before the foundation of the world and then saves them with no qualifications or exceptions to that- and yet you can accept and believe that God would demand that someone without the tools, awareness, wherewithal to do so of their own, to understand the principals of salvation and then bring themselves to faith in them. And if they don't or can't for whatever reason, spend an eternity under God's wrath. How can that seem reasonable or correct to you? By your belief, you condemn billions and billions of people to God's wrath who never had any chance for otherwise. If you are going to maintain your position that we must bring ourselves to faith, then it would only be equitable for God to give everyone equally the same tools, wouldn't' it? If you agree that He didn't provide everyone the same tools (which is what you've said), then you make God into a very unfair God indeed.
So, being honest with yourself, which of the two seems fairer to you? Don't you think that on some level, your understanding must be lacking regarding salvation, and that is why you've come to the conclusions you have?
Scripture teaches that no one can believe UNTIL becoming saved/born-again by which they definitely will believe
And if I do provide those verses, will you repent of yours?
[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
This will probably come as quite a shock and surprise to you, but I am the one who says that Christ ALONE is the Savior, so it is not I who is "Christ-less"; YOU on the other hand, are the one who says we are to save ourselves by our own faith.
So, being honest with yourself, which of the two seems fairer to you? Don't you think that on some level, your understanding must be lacking regarding salvation, and that is why you've come to the conclusions you have?
Scripture teaches that no one can believe UNTIL becoming saved/born-again by which they definitely will believe
And if I do provide those verses, will you repent of yours?
[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
This will probably come as quite a shock and surprise to you, but I am the one who says that Christ ALONE is the Savior, so it is not I who is "Christ-less"; YOU on the other hand, are the one who says we are to save ourselves by our own faith.