Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

Journeyman · Feb 1, 2022

It's not just one verse, but many dealing with the same subject. I've posted many of them in this thread and if you'll go to my screen name and go to recent activity you can read them.

The main thing of our all study is to know our Lord more intimately. Pray to him. Ask him if he intends to have the unsaved suffer for eternity.

posthuman · Feb 1, 2022

LactoseIntolerant said:

Not tartarus. Tartaroo.
Which is a verb, not a noun.

Runningman · Feb 1, 2022

TheLearner said:

None of the churches I’ve been to for any period of time taught me about what I believe about eternal torment. I haven’t even heard of most of the groups you mentioned.

Where I’m coming from is a mostly non-Christian secular background. I wasn’t ever indoctrinated to any lasting effect. As far as I can tell, most Christian denominations are so far removed from the truth that the truth is unrecognizable. Much like how annihilationism is such a hard pill to swallow for some.

I’m not ready to settle down anywhere in the US. Actually I plan on moving overseas pretty soon so I’ll look into opening a church or maybe doing some missionary work once I get there.

posthuman · Feb 1, 2022

LactoseIntolerant said:

my opinion is worthless and it really doesn't matter what you think.
what matters is what God says.
that being the case, if you want to talk about hell, it means it's word-study time, and you and i both can leave our feelings and opinions about what makes sense or is just at the door. God did not poll our opinions when He established the truth. we agree about this much, yes?

so -- not that i'm qualified at all, but let's get the ball rolling on something actually worthwhile on the subject instead of back-and-forth opinion vs. opinion and feelings vs feelings and yeah-this-is-clearly-wrong-but-i'm-going-to-keep-saying-it vs. facts.

'hell' is not in the Bible at all. that's an English word.

in the Hebrew it's ubiquitously 'sheol'
in the Greek, we have hades used interchangeably for sheol; when NT authors quote OT scriptures containing sheol they directly substitute hades.
but also in the Greek we have gehenna, and we have 1 verse in Peter mentioning tartaroo.
this all bears some examination. let's start with tartaroo --

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment

(2 Peter 2:4)

this is the only place this word is found in the Bible.
for our purposes, it's important to know that this verse ((i quoted nkjv but most follow suit)) does not actually have the word hell in it at all. the whole phrase 'cast them down to hell' is one word in Greek, tartarōsas
that's a verb. it's where the word 'tartarus' in Greek mythos stems from, but Peter doesn't say 'tartarus' -- Peter uses the verb tartaroo.
tartaroo as far as i can tell means to thrust down / push down in an ultimate sense; i.e. as low down as it's possible to push.
the KJV translators apparently didn't really know what to make of this but they figured they knew where evil angels ought to be, so they put it as 'cast to hell' in English.

so: Peter doesn't specifically say where these angels were put ((does 'where' make sense for spiritual beings anyway? or is where only a physical terminology? we going to have to eventually get into topological discussions)). Peter says they are cast down & chained, and that ((very interestingly)) they are reserved for judgement. they have not yet been judged - not in a 'final' sense.
so wherever they are, whatever their present state is, it's analogous to a 'holding cell' -- we can think of it modern terms as being incarcerated waiting for trial.

are they in hell?
if you're a KJV-onlyist, you're bound by oath to say yes ((lol - my friends, i kid. i do love you))
but in Revelation we find later they are cast into the lake of fire -- so then maybe mr. i-don't-like-milk has a case with you, because he's going to say, ok what is the lake of fire? is that hell? but these guys were already in hell, according to KJB, so do you have 2 hells or do you have them taken out of hell and put right back into it?
in a modern sense, that's kinda analogous to you are put in jail, you go to trial, you go back to jail. but the reality even in the modern system is that there are county detention centers you get held in, then after trial, you may go to an actual prison. they are two different places. jail is not equal to prison. i'll leave it to people with actual experience in such matters to give their testimony of what's worse, but we have a place where we detain people against whom there is much evidence of guilt ((jail)) until they are judged, and then we have a whole other place after the day of judgement where they go.

but getting back to the focus of our attention: what is tartaroo? it is being thrust down and chained. it's the result of an immediate judgement before the day of trial. so, we have obvious questions to answer:

who are these angels?
where are they now?
- is it hell?
  - what is hell? it's not even Greek/Hebrew. do we have a definition of it?
- is it sheol?
- is it hades?
  - are sheol/hades truly interchangeable terms?
- is it the lake of fire?
  - is sheol the lake of fire?
  - is hades the lake of fire?
  - is gehenna the lake of fire?
- is it 'death' ?
  - does death belong in this conversation at all?
  - is death a different construct than the things English-speakers call hell?
  - is death = sheol?
  - is death = hades?
  - is death = Abraham's bosom?
  - is death = gehenna?
  - is death something altogether different; is it apples & oranges to the question of hell?
why are they wherever they are?
- what's the point of being chained awaiting judgement? why not just judge them immediately? doesn't God know all the evidence?
- is He giving them space to repent?
- can they repent?
- is God cruel & unjust if He is just 'making them sweat' when their final judgement is a foregone conclusion?
- is God merciful and good if He waits until the appointed time?
- why is there an appointed time?
- if there is an appointed time, why chain them in **wherever they are** ? why not just wait till the time?
is Peter actually making allusions to Tartarus per Greek mythos? is that why he uses this word?
does Peter mean for us to understand this as 'hell' or is this a mistranslation?
- is 'hell' even a good use of language?
- what is i-don't-like-milk's concept of hell?
  - are those concepts scriptural or cultural?
- should we avoid using the word 'hell' altogether because of its inaccurate cultural connotations?

i think i've written enough for a good starting point for now -- and i've left so, so much out, but i realize how long this single post is getting already -- frankly i am not interested in entertaining mr. phone's vain love for arguing anymore over his thoroughly disproven hypothesis, so i'm glad for a better topic for discussion. and frankly, i'm currently working 60+ hour weeks for the next year-ish so while i may have time to think i have very little time to correspond. i say that because i know some of my posts seem curt and possibly rude, but i want you to know i like the direction you're moving the discussion to, but i am sorry that i simply don't have the luxury of fully engaging in the discussion.

tldr:
the Bible is not an English-language text. it uses a lot of words that wind up being translated as 'hell' or wind up being incorporated into our idea of what 'hell' is -- but the Bible is a lot more complex than that. the fact that several different words God uses get lumped into one blanket term 'hell' should immediately make us stop and think, wait, is my idea of 'hell' correct? and the way to find out is to set aside all of our presuppositions and opinions and humbly look at what God actually says, carefully, ask lots of questions, and look for answers.

LactoseIntolerant · Feb 1, 2022

John146 said:

The KJV bible is historically profound. However, I would go wherever the truth takes me. It is vitally important to track and assess the impact on the written word. It is sad but KJ only movement is about controlling the keys of influence not about quest for truth,

John146 said:

Where is it in the bible? Not what your emotions are telling you, what is explicitly stated. Not hodge podge of anecdotes, conjectures and truisms.
The earth can be seen and observed. Can hell be seen with living eyes? What sciemtific tests can be devised to detect hell?

John146 said:

That was the argument. Is lake of fire is hell? One hell burning another hell or hell burning itself. How many hells and where is it documented? Milton?

posthuman · Feb 1, 2022

just so it's out there, let me be extremely clear about my position on the greater subject matter, in case i have left any room for confusion:

i believe the scripture very clearly portrays the soul as having an everlasting existence. existence is derived from God, not from your flesh. God is not limited to your flesh.
existence is not equivalent to life, and death is not equivalent to non-existence.
the soul can exist eternally in a state of death, or in a state of life. God's judgement determines life and death as God defines it wholly separate from the body of dust. God's knowledge of you determines your existence, and God is omniscient.
God can obviously annihilate anyone and anything: He is God. but He doesn't; annihilation is not the design of His creation.
the design of His creation is such that it is embedded in time ((which is itself a created thing, one of the pillars of creation)) and culminates in a fixed state of existence in death or life. God appointed 2 deaths, one we are fairly familiar with before the judgement ((yet also another sense of the word that is entirely spiritual, not physical)), and a second death that all who are not in Him will experience after the judgement. death is a very complicated subject in scripture and it is a really big mistake to presume that it is always equivalent to the body of dust decaying back into dust.

i can support all this from scripture but as i put in the previous post, you may have to wait awhile for me to do it if you press me, because at this time i do not have very many minutes/hours i can spare to chatting. please don't think i am dismissing you if i don't write back or if i don't address every single thing you say. it's just that i'm busy

@tele-person, don't bother. you're wrong. deal with it. you have Genesis 2:7 so screwed up it's not funny.

LactoseIntolerant · Feb 1, 2022

Journeyman said:

How should one show obedience to one's God? That is the question.
Consider discipleship to Jesus
Luke 9:59And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 60Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. 61And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. 62And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Consider the golden calf
Exo 32:25Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.27Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’ ” 28The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

These are Archetypes and but these are goals to which we should strive as He is Our God. He is Greater than family and friends. So a little thing to not speak against God is overwhelmed by earthly matters and considerations. God is not spoken as God, but something on a family spectrum where God is not primary, like some crazy uncle thrice removed.
Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

The delusion of the things of man now does not prepare them for an audience with God later and it is a prison.

LactoseIntolerant · Feb 1, 2022

posthuman said:

The question
"Hades, gehenna, tartaroo What are these?

You were asking of places.. Consider Strong's
"...
Usage: I thrust down to Tartarus or Gehenna.
HELPS Word-studies

5020 tartaróō – properly, send to Tartarus ("Tartaros"). The NT uses 5020 (tartaróō) for the netherworld – the place of punishment fit only for demons. Later, Tartaros came to represent eternal punishment for wicked people."

John146 · Feb 1, 2022

LactoseIntolerant said:

There’s only one hell, although the scripture indicates there could be levels. The lake of fire is the eternal fire. I could post many more if needed.

Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

justbyfaith · Feb 1, 2022

Journeyman said:

God does not speak to me except through His word.

And His word teaches me that unredeemed sinners face everlasting fire that is everlasting punishment that will be characterized by wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:41, Matthew 24:46, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

TheLearner · Feb 1, 2022

posthuman said:

The first death is seperation of body and soul. The second death is final separation from God.

TheLearner · Feb 1, 2022

Runningman said:

You really did not answer my question friend. Who did you learn your theology from? The natural reading of Matthew 25:46 is eternal life and eternal punishment.

Amplified Bible
Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”

Christian Standard Bible
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And these will go into eternal torture, and the righteous into eternal life.”

Contemporary English Version
Then Jesus said, "Those people will be punished forever. But the ones who pleased God will have eternal life."

Lamsa Bible
And these shall go into everlasting torment, and the righteous into eternal life.

https://biblehub.com/parallel/matthew/25-46.htm

TheLearner · Feb 1, 2022

read to here

Runningman · Feb 1, 2022

TheLearner said:

You really did not answer my question friend. Who did you learn your theology from? The natural reading of Matthew 25:46 is eternal life and eternal punishment.

Amplified Bible
Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”

Christian Standard Bible
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And these will go into eternal torture, and the righteous into eternal life.”

Contemporary English Version
Then Jesus said, "Those people will be punished forever. But the ones who pleased God will have eternal life."

Lamsa Bible
And these shall go into everlasting torment, and the righteous into eternal life.

https://biblehub.com/parallel/matthew/25-46.htm

I learned it from reading the Bible. I don’t recall learning it from anyone in particular.

Runningman · Feb 1, 2022

TheLearner said:

Thanks for quoting those Scriptures. What everyone really needs to see, is that the wicked don't have eternal life. Their "eternal punishment" is the Second Death in the Lake of Fire. It's called the second death because death is eternal and is a punishment.

Think of it like our capital punishment. The execution is permanent, eternal, and is a punishment.

justbyfaith · Feb 1, 2022

Runningman said:

The everlasting punishment is meted out by being cast into everlasting fire where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:46, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

Duckybill · Feb 1, 2022

Runningman said:

I don’t speak for Jesus, but I know Him. He’s probably disappointed you’re so divisive and accusing the brethren of blasphemy. For someone who clearly exhibits no fruits of the Holy Spirit, I’m not that surprised, but I have a sour taste in my mouth that you walk among us claiming to be a Christian. I hope you figure it out one day Ducky.

But He's not upset for you calling Him hellmonger?

Duckybill · Feb 1, 2022

LactoseIntolerant said:

Yes I can speak for Jesus:

Matthew 5:22 (NKJV)
22 Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Now call Jesus a "hellmonger". I don't think you will to His face.

Duckybill · Feb 1, 2022

Journeyman said:

Belief in the "everlasting fire" is not required for eternal residency therein.
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Couldn't be any clearer to us whom Satan hasn't deceived!

Runningman · Feb 2, 2022

Duckybill said:

I never said that or suggested it. I agree with everything Jesus has said. So why do you insist I am calling Jesus anything?

Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

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