Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

Really? No. Question: can someone who is physically dead be convinced into making themselves physically alive? Answer: no.
Same thing with the spiritually dead - they can't make themselves alive spiritually: it has to be given externally.

This is all totally irrelevant and not even reality.

The biblical definition of physical death is found in James 2:26 - As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

So "death" refers to separation. In the physical sense, the separation is soul from body.

In the spiritual sense, the separation is the person from God. That's spiritual death.

A spiritually dead person THINKS, ACTS, SPEAKS. A physically dead person doesn't do anything. There is no parallel about function.

But you are trying to compare the relate the 2, which CAN'T be done.

That's why it is called dead in sin: dead is dead, life is life

No, to be "dead in sin" is to be separated from God; having NO relationship with Him. Believers ARE spiritually alive and God is their Father.

- the physically and spiritually dead cannot give life unto themselves.

This is a red herring. NO ONE argues that people give themselves life or give birth to themselves. That would be sheer idiocy.

So, the spiritually dead cannot spiritually hear or trust in Christ of themselves.

And...this is where all this folly leads to. A terribly FALSE conclusion.

Rom 10:9 says man believes from the heart. Believing in Christ means to believe in or TRUST IN the work of Christ on the cross on your behalf, and trusting that Christ WILL save those who to believe or trust in Him.

Over the years, I've read a number of articles in magazines such as Time, Newsweek, etc where the writer was commenting on religion and would accurately explain the gospel ALL THE WHILE not believing it.

So your conclusion is wrong on the evidence of unbelievers who can accurately describe the gospel message even while rejecting it as truth.

They must be given spiritual life and from that comes hearing and faith.

OK, if you are convinced that this is true, what evidence FROM Scripture led you to being convinced?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not as good as dead, they were dead - dead spiritually:

Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

Please explain how "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God...and live".

Jesus said nothing about being given life BEFORE they could hear. The dead (obviously spiritually dead) hear and then live.

Calvinism cannot explain this verse.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The meaning of the words that represent the doctrine of election are self-evident.

reword that to "The meaning of the words that represent [rogerg's understanding of] the doctrine of election ..."

And to be born-again they first had to have been saved.

to be saved is to be born again.

I'm sure we will never agree on things spiritual because we each start from a different basis

yes ... you start from your dogma and you try to align Scripture to your dogma.

I start from Scripture and align my doctrine to Scripture.

I have no desire
to go through each post of yours to refute them (although I could)

... you can but you won't ... what a cop out ...

you are unable to understand what I'm saying anyway.

I understand what you're saying.

My not agreeing with you does not equal my not understanding what you're saying.

 

[rogerg]

Please explain how "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God...and live".

Jesus said nothing about being given life BEFORE they could hear. The dead (obviously spiritually dead) hear and then live.

Really? Here's how:

[Jhn 5:28-29 KJV]
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[brightfame52]

The gospel of Christ is the power God unto salvation to every one that believeth. All are lost, but the scripture is clear to those who believes and those that are not. John 5:40 speaks of those who refused " and ye will not come to me, that ye might life". Should the come and believe Christ, the lost will be saved.

The Gospel is foolisheness to the lost 1 Cor 1:18


For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

As long as one is in a lost state, the Gospel is to them foolishness , not the power of God..

 

[Grandpa]

No, you haven't taught me anything. You may think you have. That is quite different.


I'll keep saying it UNTIL you finally do actually teach me something from Scripture.


This is just a cheap shot smokescreen to avoid having to actually produce evidence for your claims.

Since you DON'T provide any evidence, all you can do is:

1. claim you have
2. claim that I don't want to see the evidence.


Oh, I've acknowledged the facts all right. Election is to service, which I proved by giving many examples of those chosen and WHAT they were chosen for.

What examples have you provided that clearly states the purpose of election to be for salvation?

Hm?

Also @fredoheaven

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Is it really my fault that you don't understand scripture? Or that you don't want to understand scripture? This is CRYSTAL CLEAR scripture showing that election is to SALVATION. And that ALL that are saved are given service.

You can try to twist it around or deny scripture but that doesn't change the facts.


If you still don't get it I could explain. But you have to show the part(s) you don't understand.

The VERY FIRST verse (eph 2:8) shows Election to Salvation. That is all that should be needed. But there are 2 more that re-inforce the first.


Very, Very simple. If salvation is the gift of God and not from ANY of your works then the ONLY way to be saved is for God to do it.

Since some are saved and some are not that means that God has given the Gift of Salvation to some and not to others. That is the very GIST of election. (See Romans 9)

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Please explain how "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God...and live".

Jesus said nothing about being given life BEFORE they could hear. The dead (obviously spiritually dead) hear and then live.

Really? Here's how:
[Jhn 5:28-29 KJV]
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This doesn't answer your claim about "spiritually dead people". You claimed they can't hear until they are regenerated.

Are the unsaved dead regenerated in order to hear Jesus' voice?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Also @fredoheaven

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Is it really my fault that you don't understand scripture? Or that you don't want to understand scripture? This is CRYSTAL CLEAR scripture showing that election is to SALVATION. And that ALL that are saved are given service.

Oh, I understand what you claim. And I've repeatedly shown that your claim cannot be found in the Bible.

Not even in the 3 verses above. If election is to salvation, we would have seen that word in v.8 - "for by grace are ye saved through ELECTION; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

But you just don't get it. If election were to salvation, there WOULD be a verse that says that. But there isn't a verse.

You can try to twist it around or deny scripture but that doesn't change the facts.

Don't embarrass yourself so much! All embarrassment is on those who claim that election is to salvation WHEN there aren't any verses that say that.

Every example I gave about election actually stated the purpose of that election; in every case it was about service.

If you still don't get it I could explain. But you have to show the part(s) you don't understand.

What you CAN'T do is provide a verse that actually shows election is to salvation. Why you assume Eph 2:8-10 does is weird.

In fact, v.10 proves that all believers are saved "for or unto good works". That is service, whether you can understand that or not.

The VERY FIRST verse (eph 2:8) shows Election to Salvation.

OK, then prove it. Actually exegete the verse. There is no mention of election at all.

That is all that should be needed. But there are 2 more that re-inforce the first.

Nope. v.10 proves that saved people are God's workmanship, for good works. Service.

Very, Very simple. If salvation is the gift of God and not from ANY of your works then the ONLY way to be saved is for God to do it.

Of course salvation is from God. But we are saved through faith, NOT election. They are not synonymous.

Since some are saved and some are not that means that God has given the Gift of Salvation to some and not to others.

Of course. But that is NOT "unconditional" as calvinism claims about being chosen for salvation.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

So, let's examine this a bit. The ONLY WAY one can say that God chooses who will be saved is that He chooses to save those who believe.

So, iow, being chosen for salvation is CONDITIONED upon faith. God does NOT chose to save anyone who has not believed in Christ.

That is the very GIST of election. (See Romans 9)

I've already given you the GIST of election, by all the examples from the Bible. And EVERY ONE OF THEM was being chosen for service.

 

[John146]

Very, Very simple. If salvation is the gift of God and not from ANY of your works then the ONLY way to be saved is for God to do it.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Jesus has accomplished all the work. All man has to do is call upon the Lord for salvation.

 

[fredoheaven]

Also @fredoheaven

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Is it really my fault that you don't understand scripture? Or that you don't want to understand scripture? This is CRYSTAL CLEAR scripture showing that election is to SALVATION. And that ALL that are saved are given service.

You can try to twist it around or deny scripture but that doesn't change the facts.


If you still don't get it I could explain. But you have to show the part(s) you don't understand.

The VERY FIRST verse (eph 2:8) shows Election to Salvation. That is all that should be needed. But there are 2 more that re-inforce the first.


Very, Very simple. If salvation is the gift of God and not from ANY of your works then the ONLY way to be saved is for God to do it.

Since some are saved and some are not that means that God has given the Gift of Salvation to some and not to others. That is the very GIST of election. (See Romans 9)

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, salvation is not earned, it is not what we are doing, it is Christ who did it. It's nothing about we do, it's done by Christ. The Saviour Christ is come to seek and save that which was lost. Christ came to save those who will believe on him. He was not come to give faith. As usual Ephesian 2;8-10, although you already included in your quote vv 8-9 yet still, they are no bearing in support for election to salvation. This seems to begin to your fallacious reasoning. The very first verse had nothing to do with election. The scripture is clear how can one be saved. Even the word ordain as in v. 13 is moot because the Greek has worded it differently from the Greek eklektos.

 

[fredoheaven]

The Gospel is foolisheness to the lost 1 Cor 1:18


For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

As long as one is in a lost state, the Gospel is to them foolishness , not the power of God..

This will completely harmonize and not to contradict to others Paul's writing in Romans 1:16. The gospel preaching is the power of God unto salvation to those who will believe. Letting Calvinism interpretation would allow contradiction to both statement of Paul but who would like to go with that? Paul's statement rather complement and I would rather go to Paul's statements.

 

[brightfame52]

fredoheaven says

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, salvation is not earned, it is not what we are doing, it is Christ who did it. It's nothing about we do, it's done by Christ.

Then says

Christ came to save those who will believe on him

This is a contradiction because believing is something the person does.

 

[brightfame52]

This will completely harmonize and not to contradict to others Paul's writing in Romans 1:16. The gospel preaching is the power of God unto salvation to those who will believe. Letting Calvinism interpretation would allow contradiction to both statement of Paul but who would like to go with that? Paul's statement rather complement and I would rather go to Paul's statements.

The Lost man believes the Gospel is foolishness, its written right in front of you 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

That word perish is the greek word apollymi and its translated lost or be lost no less than nine times in the NT, hence, to the Lost it [the Gospel] is not the power of God to them , its foolishness !

 

[Miriam_Jasmine]

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Does this verse speak about the elect?

 

[rogerg]

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Does this verse speak about the elect?

For what it's worth, my understanding is that "every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear
more fruit", is of the elect

I think Mark 4:3, 7,8 confirms and explains this further

[Mar 4:3, 7-8 KJV]
3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: ...
7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

Likewise, Mar 4:14 - 20:

[Mar 4:14-20 KJV]
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive [it], and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Likewise, John 15:5 - 8:

[Jhn 15:5 - 8 KJV]
5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. ...
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Ultimately, those who do bear fruit can do so only because God Himself caused it.

I'm sure there are other verses that demonstrate the same.

Hope this makes sense. If not, please let me know.

 

[fredoheaven]

fredoheaven says


Then says



This is a contradiction because believing is something the person does.

Your first quote of me is about doing to complete salvation but salvation has been completed. Christ says It is finished and now is being offered free as a gift Romans 6:23. As gift, we do nothing but to either receive or reject, believe or not to believe. The second quote is that belief is meant as a response to the offer. This is what you cannot reconcile even in the lips of Christ and the writing of Paul and John the Beloved John 5:40, Eph1:13 1 John 5:13 so there is no contradiction. It is only child n your Calvinistic position not scriptural position.

 

[brightfame52]

Your first quote of me is about doing to complete salvation but salvation has been completed. Christ says It is finished and now is being offered free as a gift Romans 6:23. As gift, we do nothing but to either receive or reject, believe or not to believe. The second quote is that belief is meant as a response to the offer. This is what you cannot reconcile even in the lips of Christ and the writing of Paul and John the Beloved John 5:40, Eph1:13 1 John 5:13 so there is no contradiction. It is only child n your Calvinistic position not scriptural position.

You were in contradiction and cant see it.

 

[oyster67]

Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

Ridiculous.

Joshua
24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
24:16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
24:17 For the LORD our God, he [it is] that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:
24:18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: [therefore] will we also serve the LORD; for he [is] our God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Does this verse speak about the elect?

If by "the elect" you mean believers, then according to Eph 1:4, yes, it speaks of believers, who are elected for service.

If, however, you mean anyone who has been chosen/elected, not necessarily. In John 6:70 Jesus told the 12 that He chose/elected them, and one of them was a devil, meaning Judas, who never believed. But was chosen to be the betrayer.

Election is to service. All believers have been chosen for service, so there is no such thing as "full time Christian service" vs pew warmers.

 

[Grandpa]

Of course salvation is from God. But we are saved through faith, NOT election. They are not synonymous.

What does "and that not of yourselves" mean to you?

It means that Grace and Faith are not from US. They are from God.

Salvation, from beginning to end is NOT OF OURSELVES.


There is no way to honestly interpret Ephesians 2:8-10 as saying WE provide the Faith and God rewards that Faith with Salvation. It is DISHONEST to say that and WISHFUL THINKING being pushed onto the Scriptures.