Every “solution” to the problem of evil is itself evil

KelbyofGod · Feb 11, 2022

@KrisWampler In reply to your OP, I'll answer with a broad stroke of info because a lot of the answers are contained within the answer to the question I'd asked God while attempting to ask Him something that He would struggle to answer. (I was asking because I thought I'd take him up on the implied challenge of Ephesians 3:20.)

I'd asked God "What IS the purpose of THIS life?" (meaning mankind's earthly life)

His answer (which he only waited about 20 seconds to provide) is "The purpose of THIS life (meaning mankind's earthly life) is for man to CHOOSE." Not meaning it is for us to choose the purpose, but the purpose is set to allow man the opportunity/opportunities to choose.

For "Choice" to exist there has to be an option other than "Good" which of course is "Evil". That is why evil MUST be possible and equally available... during the time allowed for choosing.

And for there to be equal representation of the "evil" option there has to be someone advocating for the "evil" option as much as there has to be someone advocating for the "good" option. That is why the devil must be allowed to remain... during the time allowed for choosing.

Once the time allotted for choosing has expired there is no reason for the time of evil, the place of evil, the advocate of evil, or even the evil itself to remain... So the time ends(Rev. 10:6), the place (heavens and earth) are folded up and changed (Heb 1:10-12), and the advocate with all the associated evil (and followers of evil) are cast into the lake of fire and burned forever.

That's a good portion of the answers... in a nut shell, so to speak.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

KelbyofGod · Feb 11, 2022

@KrisWampler ;

And Rev. 19:20, Rev. 20:10, and Rev. 20:14-15 regarding destruction in the lake of fire.

(I'd run out of editing time whilst adding scripture references.)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Journeyman · Feb 11, 2022

FaithWillDo said:

But you didn't directly give your view of what I cited. I gave my view of the passages you cited. Understand? Then I cited passages to support what I believe. Understand? I don't ignore scripture I'm presented with. Understand? I give my view if what others cite and then support it with other scripture. Understand? I just had a lengthly conversation with soneone who did what you're doing, ignoring my view of what he cited and then citing other scripture that refuted his belief, but meshed perfectly with my view. Understand? So, if you think I'm wrong, then please look at what I cited and gove me your view of what it says. Fair enough?

Now you cited,

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Click to expand...

Paul isn't saying people are born with no ability to consider anything about God. He's saying people who mind only worldy things can't understand anything about God. As a proof text to support what I'm saying, I iofer you,

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good giftsunto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Fathe rgive the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? Lk.11:13

Now my point is, our Lord is saying evil people can ask Gid for the holy Spirit, because evil people have the ability to consider God.

Ok? Understand? I'll deal with the rest of your post, the scripture you cited later. But for now, you comment on why Jesus said people who don't have the holy Spirit can ask for him.

FaithWillDo · Feb 11, 2022

Journeyman said:

Dear Journeyman,
I did respond to your post but your post was mostly incorrect comments and assumptions. Here is a more specific reply to your verse.

Here is the full scripture:
Luke 11:9-13 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

This scripture is speaking of a chosen Christian who has only been "called out" and has only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. But nevertheless, they are still considered a "son" (verse 11) because they are chosen.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

However, at this time, the "son" is still evil and is in need of the Latter Rain/Baptism of the Holy Spirit to be converted. They have fallen for Satan's deceptions and are now "worse than before" (Mat 12: 43-45). But since they are "chosen", Christ will come to them a second time and reveal the Man of Sin whom they have become. This knowledge will cause them to repent from their "works" (Doctrine of Free Will) and pray for the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Their eyes are now fully opened (Mark 8:25). This great work of conversion happened because it was God's "will" for it to happen.

John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Early Rain Christians (both those who chosen and not chosen) are left spiritually blind after being called out. They have a paradigm of God that comes from this world (Satan). They understand scripture in a very different way than does a believer who has received the Latter Rain and has their spiritual blindness healed. Once a believer has their blindness healed, their paradigm changes. Instead of seeing Christ in the flesh (carnally), they now see Him in the spirit (spiritually).

When this change of paradigms happens to a chosen believer, it is said to be like earthquakes, thunder, lightning and trumpets. The sun is darkened and the moon turns to blood. It is a monumental moment in that person's life. They no longer receive their light from this world (sun and moon). They now receive it from the brightness of Christ appearing to them.

This Latter Rain event happened to me on October 8th, 2005. My conversion testimony is posted in my profile.

I will make a second and third post in a few minutes which will help explain what I presented above. It is Christ's teaching on the healing of a blind man (Mark 8:21-25) and the Parable of the Ten Virgins.

Joe

FaithWillDo · Feb 11, 2022

Journeyman said:

Dear Journeyman,

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response from the Apostles is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Since Christ is the Word of God, He teaches us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer in "type" by healing a blind man. This "type" is the same "type" which Christ uses with the Old Testament events to teach His spiritual truths.

In verses 23, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (understanding). This is the same time when an unbeliever is "called out from the world" and becomes a Christian. After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a spiritual symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this spiritual aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down at the earth. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a “type” of a Called and Chosen believer.

Joe

FaithWillDo · Feb 11, 2022

Journeyman said:

Dear Journeyman,

Mat 25:1-13 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto TEN virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in flasks with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The parable begins by showing us Ten Virgins. The term “Virgins” symbolizes all believers who have been “Called out from the world” (the church).

2Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

All Ten Virgins have received the Early Rain of the Spirit at this point, but not the Latter Rain. The number TEN represents the completeness of their carnality. They have all been made “worse than before” (Mat 12:43-45).

The Lamp in verse 1 represents the Word of God (Christ/Truth) and the “Oil” with which it is filled represents the Holy Spirit. This original filling of Oil represents the Early Rain of the Spirit within the “called out” believer. The Light that the Lamp gives off is “truth” which lights the pathway to Christ.

Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

This “truth” that lights the way to Christ is the Old Covenant of Law (man’s works).

Mat 25:2 And FIVE of them were Wise, and FIVE were Foolish.

The parable continues with two additional symbols: FIVE Wise Virgins and FIVE Foolish Virgins. The number FIVE is a symbol for how we relate to God. Those two ways are either by “works” or by “faith”.

The FIVE Foolish Virgins represent those who have been Called Out but are not chosen to be saints. They approach Christ by “works”. They will remain under the Law until their physical deaths.

The FIVE Wise Virgins represent those who have been Called Out and Chosen to be saints. They will for a time approach Christ by “works” alongside the Called Out believers but they will eventually change their approach to “Grace through Faith”.

Mat 25:3-5 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in flasks with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

While the Ten Virgins wait for the Bridegroom to come a second time (the first time was when the betrothal was made/Early Rain), they all slumber & sleep and do not keep watch. The symbol “slumbered and slept” represents the time when we are spiritually blind and spiritually dead. At this time, the Wise Virgins are no different from the Foolish Virgins. They too, are in a worsened spiritual state (Man of Sin) and still carry the Lamp that gives off the light of the Old Covenant of Law (man’s works).

However, verse 4 lets us know that the Wise Virgins are those who are also chosen to be saints because they carry an extra flask of Oil.

Mat 25:6-9 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

At midnight, the deepest part of our spiritual darkness when we are under Satan's deceptions, the call goes out to announce the Bridegroom’s approach. This is the same call that was made by John the Baptist to the Nation of Israel and later by the Apostle John to “Called Out” (Early Rain) Christian believers. It is a call to repent from our own “works” so as to prepare the way for us to receive Christ and the New Covenant.

When both the Wise Virgins and the Foolish Virgins hear “the voice of one crying in the wilderness” (Luke 3:4) “come out of her my people” (Rev 18:4), it tells them the Bridegroom is coming. They all awake from their slumber and trim their Lamps. As they do, the Lamps begin to go out. A second filling of Oil is needed. The 5 wise Virgins, since they brought a second filling of Oil, receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit and go out to meet Christ. They follow the light from the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. But because the 5 Foolish Virgins do not have a second filling of Oil, they are forced to “turn back” from whence they came. They will remain under Law.

This time of turning back is symbolized by Lot’s wife who turned back.

Luke 17:31-32 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife.

It is also shown to us in John 6:66 when some of the Christ’s disciples turned away from following Him after responding to the cry of John the Baptist.

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

The 5 Foolish Virgins cannot continue on to meet the Bridegroom because they did not receive a second filling of Oil for their Lamps. This New Oil symbolizes the Latter Rain of the Holy Spirit which would have lighted their way to walk by the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. The 5 Foolish Virgins simply were not chosen from the foundation of the world and had no choice but to remain under Law. Because they never became the wife of Christ, a new child of God was never produced. As a result, they remained under Law and were not saved.

Mat 25:10-12 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

The Foolish Virgins will later find that their portion is with the unbelievers. This event occurs at their resurrection to judgment (Lake of Fire):

Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

The Foolish Virgins will not be blessed to be in Christ’s harvest of First Fruits and they will be resurrected to judgment with the unbelievers. They will receive their portion at the end of the final age when the great harvest of mankind occurs. They will not have life in the Kingdom of Heaven during the ages. They will only be given life at the end of the ages.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

When the Great Day of the Harvest (Feast of Tabernacles) finally arrives, Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father which now contains “all” who died in Adam.

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Christ’s reign will come to an end because He accomplished all that the Father gave Him to do, which was:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Joe

Evmur · Feb 11, 2022

KrisWampler said:

Sovereign freewill is what God has.

We do not say that man does not have a will but we say it is not free. He can will to repent eg but he has not the power to actually repent, he is totally reliant upon the Holy Spirit to work that repentance into him this is what Acts means when it says of the crowd hearing Peter's sermon "they were pricked in their hearts"

Man can will but he cannot execute his will. This Paul teaches is bondage, we are all in bondage until Christ sets us free.

slavery [to sin] and bondage do not spell free.

Evmur · Feb 11, 2022

KrisWampler said:

You seem to be saying we have to wait until we get to heaven before we are sanctified but the bible says we are sanctified by a single sacrifice [Christ's death on the cross] it is done the instant we believe and are born again. In the twinking of an eye.

You say "but we still sin" yes we do, we don't have to but we generally do. This is because we have to learn to live out this new sanctified life which we have been given as a free gift of God's grace. We have to train ourselves up.

The soonest folk learn that it is something they already are, something God has wonderfully done in us, the soonest we start to live and walk before God in grateful holiness.

KrisWampler · Feb 11, 2022

Evmur said:

You just described sanctification.

Journeyman · Feb 12, 2022

FaithWillDo said:

Your posts are way too long. You're going from how people perceive our Lord, to God is going to save every individual who ever existed. Lets stick with one subject at a time.

My point is, people believe before the holy Spirit indwells them and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of your beliefs that nobody can believe in God before Christs' Spirit indwells them?
How are you defining "the early rain of the Spirit"?

Evmur · Feb 12, 2022

KrisWampler said:

That's right, that's what you asked me to clarify [my position on] but we do not have to wait until we are perfect or in heaven. We are now sanctified made so by the blood of Jesus. Until we recognise that, understand that, believe that we will never be able to manifest it in our lives.

General Booth founder of the Salvation Army tells how he spent many, many hours on his knees begging for God to make him holy, then he read "Christ is our sanctification" and instead of begging he started praising God for what He had already done.

This is the key to all of God's miracles.

FaithWillDo · Feb 12, 2022

Journeyman said:

Dear journeyman,
If God has given a person a love for the truth, they will find the time to read my posts.

Truth is given to us in bits and pieces, "here a little and there a little". In order to understand the truth, it must be assembled much like a jigsaw puzzle is assembled:

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and ANOTHER TONGUE will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

For this reason, I include other related subjects to support the main points of what I am presenting.

You asked:
My point is, people believe before the holy Spirit indwells them and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of your beliefs that nobody can believe in God before Christs' Spirit indwells them?

There are no verses scripture which teach we can seek out Christ, understand His truth and accept Him as "Lord" BEFORE He comes to us and gives us the Holy Spirit.

These two verses below teach what mankind is like in our created state:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

In this condition, no one can "believe" in Christ before Christ comes to them and gives them His "gifts". Those gifts include a measure of faith and an earnest amount of the Holy Spirit.

This verse below confirms this truth:

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Unless Christ as "prepared our hearts" by giving us the Holy Spirit, the "answer of our tongue" will not be saying that Jesus is Lord. And once He gives us this gift, we can no longer call Jesus accursed. We have no "free will" ability to do otherwise.

Do you believe these verses?

Scripture says that Paul is the "pattern" whereby all will be saved. I posted a blog yesterday that goes through the scripture of Paul's conversion. Rather than post it here, it would be better for you to just read the blog.

You asked:
How are you defining "the early rain of the Spirit"?

The Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit is the key part of the "great mystery of Christ and His church" (Eph 5:32). It is the most hidden teaching in scripture. It is the teaching of the pathway to salvation that Christ causes His chosen Elect to follow.

Paul's conversion, which is presented in "type", presents the overall summary of this pathway. However, it does not stand alone in scripture. Christ teaches on this pathway frequently. In fact, all the parables that start off with the phrase, "the Kingdom of Heaven is like" is a teaching on a specific aspect of the pathway. Just remember that Christ teaches us "line upon line" and "here a little, and there a little". From those parts, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we must assemble them before we can see the full picture.

Since you specifically asked about the Early Rain. Here is my short answer: The Early Rain of the Spirit is the event when Christ comes to an unbeliever and gives them an earnest amount of the Holy Spirit (not the baptism of the Spirit, that is the Latter Rain) and a measure of faith. When Christ comes to an unbeliever, He comes "spiritually" in their heart. When He comes, He does so solely because of His "grace" and His decision to do so. He does NOT come to them because they asked Him to come. Nor does Christ ask them for permission to come. Remember the verses I posted above? Mankind will not seek God nor can they understand Him. We are at the mercy of Christ to come and give us what we need. When Christ comes to us and gives us the Early Rain, we CANNOT perceive that He came to us with our human senses. The only way to know that He came is by seeing the evidence of His "visitation". And that evidence is that we now accept Him as "Lord". Once a believer receives the Early Rain, they are now "called out from the world" and they have entered the church. It is solely the work of Christ that it happened. There is no "free will" of choosing Him first involved.

Scripture says that "many are called" but "few are chosen". The "many called" is everyone who has received the Early Rain of the Spirit. If a person is also one of the "few" who have been "chosen", Christ will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is also called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and is the same event the apostles received on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room. The Latter Rain event is when a person is actually "born again" and enters the Kingdom of Heaven.

There is a great deal of scripture which teaches the pathway to salvation (Early and Latter Rain) and it is not limited to only the New Testament.

Here is one of Christ teachings from the book of John on the pathway to salvation. But like all His teachings, it is presented in Christ's "another tongue" (spiritual language). To understand and accept His teaching, one must have "eyes that can see".

John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

A “woman” in scripture represents God’s wife who is mankind.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

From the very start of Adam’s creation, his marriage relationship with God was based upon faith. However, Adam was created spiritually weak and spiritually blind. He quickly became carnally minded. Because of these flaws, Adam soon sinned by committing adultery with Satan (believing Satan instead of God). Rather than going to God in faith and asking for forgiveness, Adam turned to the ways of Satan and tried to hide (apron of fig leaves, filthy rags) his adultery through his own “works”. If Adam would have come to God in faith and simply asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven and the marriage relationship would have been restored. But Adam turned to his own works and strayed from approaching God by faith alone. Because of Adam’s adultery with Satan, the marriage ended and God cast him out of the Garden. Ever since that time, God has been working to restore His marriage relationship with mankind.

In the story from John 8:3-10, the woman represents Adam (all mankind). When Christ first writes in the earth it represents the time when He writes His law in our hearts.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This verse is speaking of the New Covenant which is spiritual.

When Christ first writes His Law of the Spirit in our hearts, it is the time of the Early Rain of the Spirit when we are “called out from the world”. Now, instead of by approaching God by "works", we are to approach Him by "faith" alone. However, shortly after receiving the Early Rain, Satan comes to us and deceives us. This happens because we remain spiritually blind. Because of Satan's deception, we fall away from faith alone and mix in our own works (like Adam did). This is the sin that leads to death and we remain under the Law of Sin and Death. Because this happens, the Pharisees do not drop the stones after Christ first writes in the earth. The Law is still accusing us.

Then in verse 8, Christ stoops down again and writes His Law of the Spirit upon our hearts a second time. This is the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is at this point that Christ heals our spiritual blindness and we come out from Satan’s deception. We begin to walk by faith alone and as a result, the Law of Sin and Death can no longer accuse us. After this change from religion (man’s works) to Faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The Law of Sin and Death is now of no effect over the woman (mankind) and we are restored to God.

Joe

Journeyman · Feb 13, 2022

FaithWillDo said:

i read them.

FaithWillDo said:

This passage is speaking of the law, which was given to humble Israel, by teaching them that we are all in need of Gods' mercy. That's where a child begins learning. That's the milk,

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. Isa.28:9

But when people use the law as a means of self righteousnes, this is how God sees them,

they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. Isa.28:7-8

FaithWillDo said:

I understand, but if the foundation is off, error is built on top.

FaithWillDo said:

I gave you one, but instead of seeing how the Apostles believed because of what Jesus was doing, you assume they believed because God chose them for no reason.
Here's another,

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Act.2:38

A repentant heart comes before receiving Christs' Spirit. See?

FaithWillDo said:

And I told you, Paul isn't saying people have no capacity to understand God. He's saying people who focus only on the things of this world can't understand God.

FaithWillDo said:

Paul is teaching that we're all sinners. He isn't teaching people who saw what Jesus did and heard what he said can't repent.

FaithWillDo said:

Yes I believe them, but not the way you're portraying them. Our Lord said,

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven Mt.7:21

Here, the person calling Jesus "Lord", isn't speaking by the holy Spirit.

FaithWillDo said:

Paul believed because he was stricken blind, not because he had the holy Spirit. How hard is that to understand?

Journeyman · Feb 13, 2022

You asked:
How are you defining "the early rain of the Spirit"?

The Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit is the key part of the "great mystery of Christ and His church" (Eph 5:32). It is the most hidden teaching in scripture. It is the teaching of the pathway to salvation that Christ causes His chosen Elect to follow.

Paul's conversion, which is presented in "type", presents the overall summary of this pathway. However, it does not stand alone in scripture. Christ teaches on this pathway frequently. In fact, all the parables that start off with the phrase, "the Kingdom of Heaven is like" is a teaching on a specific aspect of the pathway. Just remember that Christ teaches us "line upon line" and "here a little, and there a little". From those parts, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we must assemble them before we can see the full picture.

Since you specifically asked about the Early Rain. Here is my short answer: The Early Rain of the Spirit is the event when Christ comes to an unbeliever and gives them an earnest amount of the Holy Spirit (not the baptism of the Spirit, that is the Latter Rain) and a measure of faith. When Christ comes to an unbeliever, He comes "spiritually" in their heart. When He comes, He does so solely because of His "grace" and His decision to do so. He does NOT come to them because they asked Him to come. Nor does Christ ask them for permission to come. Remember the verses I posted above? Mankind will not seek God nor can they understand Him. We are at the mercy of Christ to come and give us what we need. When Christ comes to us and gives us the Early Rain, we CANNOT perceive that He came to us with our human senses. The only way to know that He came is by seeing the evidence of His "visitation". And that evidence is that we now accept Him as "Lord". Once a believer receives the Early Rain, they are now "called out from the world" and they have entered the church. It is solely the work of Christ that it happened. There is no "free will" of choosing Him first involved.

Scripture says that "many are called" but "few are chosen". The "many called" is everyone who has received the Early Rain of the Spirit. If a person is also one of the "few" who have been "chosen", Christ will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is also called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and is the same event the apostles received on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room. The Latter Rain event is when a person is actually "born again" and enters the Kingdom of Heaven.

There is a great deal of scripture which teaches the pathway to salvation (Early and Latter Rain) and it is not limited to only the New Testament.

Here is one of Christ teachings from the book of John on the pathway to salvation. But like all His teachings, it is presented in Christ's "another tongue" (spiritual language). To understand and accept His teaching, one must have "eyes that can see".

John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

A “woman” in scripture represents God’s wife who is mankind.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

From the very start of Adam’s creation, his marriage relationship with God was based upon faith. However, Adam was created spiritually weak and spiritually blind. He quickly became carnally minded. Because of these flaws, Adam soon sinned by committing adultery with Satan (believing Satan instead of God). Rather than going to God in faith and asking for forgiveness, Adam turned to the ways of Satan and tried to hide (apron of fig leaves, filthy rags) his adultery through his own “works”. If Adam would have come to God in faith and simply asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven and the marriage relationship would have been restored. But Adam turned to his own works and strayed from approaching God by faith alone. Because of Adam’s adultery with Satan, the marriage ended and God cast him out of the Garden. Ever since that time, God has been working to restore His marriage relationship with mankind.

In the story from John 8:3-10, the woman represents Adam (all mankind). When Christ first writes in the earth it represents the time when He writes His law in our hearts.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This verse is speaking of the New Covenant which is spiritual.

When Christ first writes His Law of the Spirit in our hearts, it is the time of the Early Rain of the Spirit when we are “called out from the world”. Now, instead of by approaching God by "works", we are to approach Him by "faith" alone. However, shortly after receiving the Early Rain, Satan comes to us and deceives us. This happens because we remain spiritually blind. Because of Satan's deception, we fall away from faith alone and mix in our own works (like Adam did). This is the sin that leads to death and we remain under the Law of Sin and Death. Because this happens, the Pharisees do not drop the stones after Christ first writes in the earth. The Law is still accusing us.

Then in verse 8, Christ stoops down again and writes His Law of the Spirit upon our hearts a second time. This is the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is at this point that Christ heals our spiritual blindness and we come out from Satan’s deception. We begin to walk by faith alone and as a result, the Law of Sin and Death can no longer accuse us. After this change from religion (man’s works) to Faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The Law of Sin and Death is now of no effect over the woman (mankind) and we are restored to God.

Joe[/QUOTE]The woman caught in adultery wasnt condemned by the people who accused her because of what Jesus said to them. They understood that they were also sinners. Your belief that people have no ability to understand things about our Lord unless they're indwelt by his Spirit isn't true. Otherwuse this is senseless,

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Rom.10:14

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Jn.20:31

Faith in God comes from the ability to understand things, the capacity to learn, which God created all people with.

“I also withheld rain from you,
When there were still three months to the harvest.
I made it rain on one city,
I withheld rain from another city.
One part was rained upon,
And where it did not rain the part withered. So two or three cities wandered to another city to drink water,
But they were not satisfied;
Yet you have not returned to Me,”
Says the LORD. Amos 4:7-8

Amos is teaching that God held back his blessing so people would go to him.

Journeyman · Feb 13, 2022

FaithWillDo said
You asked:
How are you defining "the early rain of the Spirit"?

The Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit is the key part of the "great mystery of Christ and His church" (Eph 5:32). It is the most hidden teaching in scripture. It is the teaching of the pathway to salvation that Christ causes His chosen Elect to follow.

Paul's conversion, which is presented in "type", presents the overall summary of this pathway. However, it does not stand alone in scripture. Christ teaches on this pathway frequently. In fact, all the parables that start off with the phrase, "the Kingdom of Heaven is like" is a teaching on a specific aspect of the pathway. Just remember that Christ teaches us "line upon line" and "here a little, and there a little". From those parts, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we must assemble them before we can see the full picture.

Since you specifically asked about the Early Rain. Here is my short answer: The Early Rain of the Spirit is the event when Christ comes to an unbeliever and gives them an earnest amount of the Holy Spirit (not the baptism of the Spirit, that is the Latter Rain) and a measure of faith. When Christ comes to an unbeliever, He comes "spiritually" in their heart. When He comes, He does so solely because of His "grace" and His decision to do so. He does NOT come to them because they asked Him to come. Nor does Christ ask them for permission to come. Remember the verses I posted above? Mankind will not seek God nor can they understand Him. We are at the mercy of Christ to come and give us what we need. When Christ comes to us and gives us the Early Rain, we CANNOT perceive that He came to us with our human senses. The only way to know that He came is by seeing the evidence of His "visitation". And that evidence is that we now accept Him as "Lord". Once a believer receives the Early Rain, they are now "called out from the world" and they have entered the church. It is solely the work of Christ that it happened. There is no "free will" of choosing Him first involved.

Scripture says that "many are called" but "few are chosen". The "many called" is everyone who has received the Early Rain of the Spirit. If a person is also one of the "few" who have been "chosen", Christ will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is also called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and is the same event the apostles received on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room. The Latter Rain event is when a person is actually "born again" and enters the Kingdom of Heaven.

There is a great deal of scripture which teaches the pathway to salvation (Early and Latter Rain) and it is not limited to only the New Testament.

Here is one of Christ teachings from the book of John on the pathway to salvation. But like all His teachings, it is presented in Christ's "another tongue" (spiritual language). To understand and accept His teaching, one must have "eyes that can see".

John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

A “woman” in scripture represents God’s wife who is mankind.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

From the very start of Adam’s creation, his marriage relationship with God was based upon faith. However, Adam was created spiritually weak and spiritually blind. He quickly became carnally minded. Because of these flaws, Adam soon sinned by committing adultery with Satan (believing Satan instead of God). Rather than going to God in faith and asking for forgiveness, Adam turned to the ways of Satan and tried to hide (apron of fig leaves, filthy rags) his adultery through his own “works”. If Adam would have come to God in faith and simply asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven and the marriage relationship would have been restored. But Adam turned to his own works and strayed from approaching God by faith alone. Because of Adam’s adultery with Satan, the marriage ended and God cast him out of the Garden. Ever since that time, God has been working to restore His marriage relationship with mankind.

In the story from John 8:3-10, the woman represents Adam (all mankind). When Christ first writes in the earth it represents the time when He writes His law in our hearts.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This verse is speaking of the New Covenant which is spiritual.

When Christ first writes His Law of the Spirit in our hearts, it is the time of the Early Rain of the Spirit when we are “called out from the world”. Now, instead of by approaching God by "works", we are to approach Him by "faith" alone. However, shortly after receiving the Early Rain, Satan comes to us and deceives us. This happens because we remain spiritually blind. Because of Satan's deception, we fall away from faith alone and mix in our own works (like Adam did). This is the sin that leads to death and we remain under the Law of Sin and Death. Because this happens, the Pharisees do not drop the stones after Christ first writes in the earth. The Law is still accusing us.

Then in verse 8, Christ stoops down again and writes His Law of the Spirit upon our hearts a second time. This is the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is at this point that Christ heals our spiritual blindness and we come out from Satan’s deception. We begin to walk by faith alone and as a result, the Law of Sin and Death can no longer accuse us. After this change from religion (man’s works) to Faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The Law of Sin and Death is now of no effect over the woman (mankind) and we are restored to God.

Joe

The woman caught in adultery wasnt condemned by the people who accused her because of what Jesus said to them. They understood that they were also sinners. Your belief that people have no ability to understand things about our Lord unless they're indwelt by his Spirit isn't true. Otherwuse this is senseless,

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Rom.10:14

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Jn.20:31

Faith in God comes from the ability to understand things, the capacity to learn, which God created all people with.

Journeyman · Feb 13, 2022

FaithWillDo,
I had to split the above into two posts because they were over10,000. No more of these marathon posts.

Runningman · Feb 13, 2022

KrisWampler said:

In a purely physical sense, there isn't anything inherently evil about creation. God created everything and said it was good. There is not anything that our body does that's evil because God didn't create an evil people.

To be specific, it is the heart of people, their spirit, their motivations, and their intentions that are evil.

This can be demonstrated by examining the moral/ethical implications of someone with and/or without a soul in a thought-experiment.

1. If someone dies and comes back to life as a zombie, driven entirely by the desire to survive by feeding on the brains of other people, is it murder or hunting when they kill a human?
2. If someone rises from the dead, fully cognizant with a moral compass entirely intact, is it murder if they opt to kill a person to harvest their brain when the alternative option of purchasing something from a grocery store is available?

What I am hoping to prove is that it isn't the physical, material existence, of things that are evil, but the deciding forces behind what they do - the spiritual element is where evil can be. This is what it means that we do not war against flesh and blood, but with spiritual forces.

Pilgrimshope · Feb 13, 2022

KrisWampler said:

Amen to that Discipleship of Jesus Christ leads to sanctification

“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
….Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
‭
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-36 ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16-18, 22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The doctrine of Christ sanctifies of we continue in his word

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the truth that Jesus came to speak into the world and sent out to all creatures sanctifies because of his bloodshed that remits sin it also sets us free from servitude to sin

“In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Everything we need for salvstion is on the gospel like your saying we just have to start doing this part

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he’s all sufficient so we can truly put all
Our faith in him without any other condition but hearing learning from and following after the gospel in deed and truth

“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

FaithWillDo · Feb 13, 2022

Journeyman said:

Dear Journeyman,
You quoted:
Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and ANOTHER TONGUE will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

You said:
This passage is speaking of the law, which was given to humble Israel, by teaching them that we are all in need of Gods' mercy. That's where a child begins learning. That's the milk,

This verse is specifically teaching on the time when Christ came in the flesh to the Nation of Israel. The words He spoke were recorded in the four Gospels and later expanded by the rest of the NT writers. The Law was written on tablets of stone and was not spoken in ANOTHER TONGUE. And because Christ spoke in this other language with "stammering lips" when He came in the flesh, His meaning is concealed in scripture from anyone who has not been given "eyes that can see". This inability to understand scripture applies to all mankind. It is only after a person receives the Latter Rain and is converted into a child of God that they will understand. Christ will then no longer be "veiled" to them.

You quoted:
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. Isa.28:9

This verse is teaching on WHEN a believer can understand "knowledge". This ability to receive the knowledge of God is given to a chosen believer at the time of the Latter Rain. Only at this time will a chosen believer have their spiritual blindness healed. Paul's conversion story "typed" this healing for us:

Acts 9: 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

When Paul received the Latter Rain (Baptism of the Holy Spirit), the scales fell from His eyes. This symbolizes the healing of his spiritual blindness. After this happens, he is now weaned from milk and is ready to eat "meat". He is now saved and is converted. He is no longer a child of the Devil but is now a child of God. For this reason, His name is changed from Saul to Paul.

You quoted:
But when people use the law as a means of self righteousness, this is how God sees them, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. Isa.28:7-8

Here is a better translation with a more complete statement:

Isa 28: 5-8 IN THAT DAY shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the RESIDUE OF HIS PEOPLE, And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate. BUT THEY HAVE ALSO ERRED THROUGH WINE, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they STUMBLE IN JUDGMENT. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

Here are four points I want to make from this scripture:

1). "In that day" is referring to the Day of the Lord when His judgment starts on the "Old Man" of a believer. For the Elect, the Day of the Lord begins just after Christ gives a chosen believer the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Christ's judgment is what destroys our carnal nature. Judgment's spiritual language term is "fire". Fire is a part of the Narrow pathway that leads to our full salvation.

1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The "reward" is "life during the ages". This reward is for the Elect, the First Fruits. They will also reign with Christ in the final age.

Those who "suffer loss" is speaking of the rest of mankind who are judged in the Lake of Fire age. The loss they suffer is losing the blessings that the Elect receive. But they will still be saved by fire (judgment).

Here are a few verses:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (Word of God, Christ) will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

All mankind must be "slain" in order to be "born again". After the Early Rain, the deadly head wound we receive from the sword of Christ is healed because we "fall away". We then continue on "worse than before" and remain a part of the Seven Headed Beast (represents mankind).

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

2). The "residue of His people" are the Heirs, the Elect, the First Fruits, etc. During the Day of the Lord, Christ will be a "crown of glory" for the Elect because they will stand in judgment and will have already been made righteous by the Latter Rain.

3). "But they have also erred through wine" is referring to the time when the Elect fall away. They too will "fall backward and be broken" (Isa 28:12). The term "wine" is referring to the Old Covenant of Law which is man's works (religion). The Doctrine of Free Will is its foundation.

4). Those who "stumble in judgment" is referring to the those who remain under the Law during their time of judgment. They are not chosen.

5). The phrase "for all tables are full of vomit" relates to this verse:

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

"All tables" is referring to mankind who are all full of vomit. We all experience the steps of salvation which include the Early Rain, falling away, becoming a worse creature, the Latter Rain and judgment. The "words" from Christ which we experience are the same for all mankind but the timing and order will vary.

For the Elect, they will receive the Latter Rain prior to their judgment in this age and because they have been purified by Christ, they will receive a "reward". But for those not chosen, they will die in their sins and remain under the Law. They will be resurrected to judgment. But at some point during/after (scripture doesn't say) their judgment in the Lake of Fire, they too will receive the Latter Rain and be saved (by fire).

I hope you read my comments above carefully. This is a complicated subject.

I will respond to your other comments in a second post.

Joe

FaithWillDo · Feb 13, 2022

Journeyman said:

Dear Journeyman,
You said:
I gave you one, but instead of seeing how the Apostles believed because of what Jesus was doing, you assume they believed because God chose them for no reason.

This is why I believe as I do:

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you...

John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

2 Tim 1:9 who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages,

Our salvation is solely by the "choice" and "work" of Christ within us. He is the one who causes it to happen:

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Where is man's supposed "free will" in any of these verses I posted? It isn't there.

You said:
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Act.2:38

A repentant heart comes before receiving Christs' Spirit. See?

This verse applies:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Our "repentant heart" is a work of Christ within us. It does not come from our "free will". Acts 2:38 is silent on the cause of our repenting. You are reading your preconceived beliefs into it.

Consider this verse:

2Tim 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Repentance is a gift from God.

You quoted and said:
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And I told you, Paul isn't saying people have no capacity to understand God. He's saying people who focus only on the things of this world can't understand God.

No where in Paul's comments does he say or infer any such thing.

Here are the previous two verses:

Rom 8:6-7 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

There are only TWO spiritual conditions. Either we mind the things of the flesh or we mind the things of the Spirit. Paul is contrasting people who are saved and those who are not. Mankind from birth mind the things of the flesh UNTIL we are saved. Then as a child of God, we mind the things of the spirit.

You quoted and said:
Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Paul is teaching that we're all sinners. He isn't teaching people who saw what Jesus did and heard what he said can't repent.

Yes, we are all sinners (none righteous) but the rest of your comment is not accurate. Paul doesn't even address whether or not man has a free will to "repent" in this verse. He merely states the fact that mankind in our created spiritual condition cannot understand God nor will they seek Him out.

Here is a verse where Paul taught directly about mankind not having a free will:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Here Paul is saying that mankind has no "free will" ability to deviate from God's "will". And that even when we sin, it is because it is God's "will" for it to happen. Because this is true, this question is asked of Paul "why doth He yet find fault?"

Paul answer by saying:

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Mankind's carnal nature hates the ways of God (enmity toward God) especially the truth that God does not give mankind a free will. God's will rules supreme over mankind's will. These verses below confirm what Paul said above:

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

You quoted and said:
1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Yes I believe them, but not the way you're portraying them. Our Lord said,

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven Mt.7:21

Here, the person calling Jesus "Lord", isn't speaking by the holy Spirit.

No, the believer is speaking by the Holy Spirit just as Paul did on the Damascus Road when he called Jesus "Lord". And Paul was not saved at that time either, just like the believer in Mat 7:21. Your verse is speaking about an Early Rain believer who is not chosen. They are not doing the "will" of the Father. They are still trying to be acceptable by their own "works". They still believe in their own "free will" ability to make the right choices. They are not walking by faith so they remain under the Law. How do I know this? By the final verse in the story:

Mat 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

A person who is saved is no longer under the Law. As a result, they cannot practice "lawlessness". For a believer to remain under Law, they must still be walking by works. In one of my earlier posts, I presented the story of the woman taken in adultery. That story is recorded in scripture to teach us when we come out from being under the Law. We come out from the Law when Christ comes to us a second time and writes His Law of the Spirit in our hearts. That is the Latter Rain of he Spirit (Baptism of the Spirit).

You quoted and said:
FaithWillDo said: "Scripture says that Paul is the "pattern" whereby all will be saved. I posted a blog yesterday that goes through the scripture of Paul's conversion. Rather than post it here, it would be better for you to just read the blog".

Paul believed because he was stricken blind, not because he had the holy Spirit. How hard is that to understand?

No where in scripture does it ever say that Paul's belief in Christ was caused by Christ making him blind. If that is how Christ operates, why hasn't He ever stricken anyone else blind so that they can believe, too?

Paul was stricken blind to symbolize His spiritual blindness at the time He received the Early Rain of the Spirit. The details of Paul's conversion carry spiritual meanings. His blindness was just one of the truths that his "calling" conveyed.

Belief in Christ only comes when Christ comes to us and gives us a measure of faith and an earnest amount of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, we CANNOT believe.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The above verse is very clear.

Mankind's supposed free will is an illusion of the carnal mind of man. Scripture says that we should walk by faith and believe what Christ tells us. Otherwise, we will remain under Law and Christ will say to us "I never knew you".

Joe

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