Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[fredoheaven]

Huh? Appointed to eternal life doesn't convey eternity? Umm, yeah, ok, right!
Anyway, the point of the verses was to show HOW the word was used: that certain outcomes were pre-appointed and occurred in certain situations. Its use in Acts 13:48 perfectly adheres to that usage and matches the other examples. You and Freegrace2 are
definitely grasping at straws at this point. You guys can try to run but you can't hide!

I think I'm about out of patience in discussing this with you anyway.

The appointment itself is not of course pre or before the world began as Calvinism infer. What is clear is that when the gospel preached is believed results to eternal life, an that life is eternity and I have no problem about that. Your problem while looking at the lens of Calvinism is the word ordained, unfortunately, this is after the Gentiles were saved of the gospel preaching and as obviously seen in v49 where the word of the Lord was published...

 

[Grandpa]

Obviously you have no idea what free will is.

So, I'll enlighten you on what it is.

It is the freedom to choose between options. In EVERY case, whether it is about choosing which politial candidate to vote for, or whether to believe or not believe the gospel message.

God created mankind with a conscience by which to recognize right from wrong. Calvinists seem not to understand that.

Like I said, calvinists do not understand what free will is.

If you are being influenced, one way or the other, none of your choices are free.

The following is my quote from one of my posts. Grandpa, you need to figure out how to format your posts so that my quotes don't appear as yours.
"Don't you believe that God created mankind with a conscience? And a conscience chooses which direction to go.

A conscience can be a restraining device. But it is also influenced in several ways. And not everyone is affected in the same way by their conscience.

You are already confused enough as it is, we should probably just stick to biblical topics.

Read Isa 55:7 and you will find out clearly on whom He will have mercy.

Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

I guess calvinists either are ignorant of this verse, or they just outright reject it.

Nope. Its called RECONCILING the scriptures.

If it is GOD who has mercy on who He has mercy and it is GOD who hardens whom He Will, then only those who God has had mercy on are ABLE to forsake their ways and their thoughts.

Should be obvious to a SAVED person.

Since you don't believe in free will, you are admitting that you are basically a puppet or robot. No other "choice" for you.

When you sin, who made that choice?

Please answer. It's basic to this discussion.

When people succumb to the influences from below they sin.

When people listen to the influences of God they don't.


There is no real choice, except the ones people THINK they have based on their own image of themselves.

You will be what you were made to be. You will make the choices you were made to make.

 

[Grandpa]

Right, and that is the point.

We DON'T "trust in ourselves for faith". We trust IN Jesus Christ for salvation. What's wrong with that?

Ro 10:10 SAYS that man believes from the heart. That is where we believe from.

Where does your belief come from?

Man believes from their heart of stone, unto Righteousness???

Or the New Heart that God gives them? Making Righteousness a gift as well...

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you are being influenced, one way or the other, none of your choices are free.

Nope. Free will is simply opportunity. YOU make the choice among options. That's all it is.

Of course everyone can be influenced. So what? That doesn't mean anything. You are treating "influence" as if it FORCES you to make certain choices.

A conscience can be a restraining device.

According to Rom 2:14,15 that is exactly what the conscience is for.

But it is also influenced in several ways. And not everyone is affected in the same way by their conscience.

This is just irrelevant. In EVERY political election, everyone is exposed to every whatever is shown on TV, radio, newspaper, etc.

You are already confused enough as it is, we should probably just stick to biblical topics.

And the Bible is clear about free will. We first read about free will in the Garden of Eden.

But, it would appear that you believe that Adam was FORCED to eat the fruit. Nonsense. He made a choice.

If it is GOD who has mercy on who He has mercy and it is GOD who hardens whom He Will, then only those who God has had mercy on are ABLE to forsake their ways and their thoughts.

Go ahead and keep reading Isa 55:7 BACKWARDS if you want to. But the Bible refutes your twist on it.

When people succumb to the influences from below they sin.

To succumb is to make a choice. Thanks for the example. That's free will.

Who do you know who is FORCED to sin? When you sin, are you FORCED to?

When people listen to the influences of God they don't.

That's a choice. Not a FORCE.

There is no real choice, except the ones people THINK they have based on their own image of themselves.

Thanks for a very clear example of total confusion about what free will is.

You will be what you were made to be. You will make the choices you were made to make.

You can believe that you are a puppet or robot all you want.

I know better. The ONLY REASON man is accountable and responsible for their actions is because they are FREE to make choices.

But I'm real sure that puppets don't understand that.

I guess God programmed you to be unable to understand what freedom is since He didn't give you any.

I'm still curious how you choose to sin, since you have no free will.

btw, free will can be defined as simply freedom to think. It really is that simple.

Not that puppets will be able to understand it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Right, and that is the point.

We DON'T "trust in ourselves for faith". We trust IN Jesus Christ for salvation. What's wrong with that?

Ro 10:10 SAYS that man believes from the heart. That is where we believe from.

Where does your belief come from?

Man believes from their heart of stone, unto Righteousness???

It is really amazing to see how much hostility you have for Rom 10:10. Why is that?

Or the New Heart that God gives them? Making Righteousness a gift as well...

Since Epoh 2:5 and 8 prove that regeneration and faith are THROUGH FAITH, you need to divest yourself of the calvinistic notion that man must be regenerated so he can believe.

 

[brightfame52]

Are you saying you err not knowing the scripture? Or art thou a master...and knowest not these things ? John 3:10. Anyway, these have been tackled many times in this thread if not in the other of the same or like thread. Well, "ordained" has the primary meaning of put in order, to arrange, or to prepare. This is not what Calvinist favourites as foreordained, preordained, predetermined, or predestine be understood in this passage. The verse is not about pre, afore, fore, before but this is after. Unfortunate thing for Calvinist is that the passage does not say anything "who" ordained these Gentiles to eternal life. Yes, God may ordained, yet, man may ordain or both. If Gentiles corporately appointed, then, this may still accepted since, this has been a prophesied plan from Isah. 49:6, but since, this does not say who it was that ordained the Gentiles to eternal life might well have been prepared, established or arranged to eternal life by those who preached to them, who the believed. Acts 13:48 is not a hint of any predetermined, individual salvation decided to eternity.

Lol, You believe men can ordain people to eternal life ? Wow what men will say to avoid the obvious. Only God can ordain a person to eternal life. Jn 17:3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

That word ordained denotes Gods arrangement, forming, creating. I believe it has to do with how God created or made some as vessels of honor like Rom 9:21-23


Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Thats the whole problem now, man wants to contribute to eternal life, going to heaven, to be like the Most High !

 

[John146]

Man believes from their heart of stone, unto Righteousness???

Or the New Heart that God gives them? Making Righteousness a gift as well...

Sounds like robotics to me.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God says these gentiles have the work of the law written in their hearts ... which is the conscience.

The work of the law is our natural desire to justify ourselves before God by our own efforts (work) for righteousness.

well ... "our natural desire to justify ourselves before God" would conflict with your earlier statements that the unbeliever's heart would never seek God to begin with.

Here is what Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges says about your conjecture that "the work of the law is our natural desire to justify ourselves before God by our own efforts (work) for righteousness":

"The work of the law" has been explained as if collective for "works;" but this is ill-supported by real parallels. It is better to explain it as "what the law does," than as "what is done for the law's sake;" and thus it means the teaching of the Difference of right and wrong (see Romans 3:20). This "work," done in an intense degree by the law, is done in a lower degree by conscience alone; but the work is the same in kind. The sense of wrong and right, which it is the law's work to produce fully, is somehow and in some measure, without the law, "written" in heathen "hearts." ​

In all actuality, Rom 2:14-15 clearly states that the gentiles do by nature the things contained in the law. We see the same thing today. There are people who do not believe in God, yet hold themselves to an ethical standard that in some respects is in alignment with God's law (not good to steal, lie, cheat, etc., etc.).

The point of the passage, however, is that even gentiles who do by nature the things contained in the law are still in need of salvation through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no salvation outside of Him.


.

 

[fredoheaven]

Lol, You believe men can ordain people to eternal life ? Wow what men will say to avoid the obvious. Only God can ordain a person to eternal life. Jn 17:3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

That word ordained denotes Gods arrangement, forming, creating. I believe it has to do with how God created or made some as vessels of honor like Rom 9:21-23


Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Thats the whole problem now, man wants to contribute to eternal life, going to heaven, to be like the Most High !

Umm, you really have a problem my friend, what i am talking about the word ordain that man can appoint. It's not about people can remit sins or give eternal life.

 

[rogerg]

well ... "our natural desire to justify ourselves before God" would conflict with your earlier statements that the unbeliever's heart would never seek God to begin with.

Because natural man has not been given faith, there is no desire within them to be justified before God through Jesus Christ. Starting from birth, in the heart of natural man, is a desire to follow a gospel other than God's Gospel: it is the gospel of Satan, from which they strive through works to earn salvation. They perceive Satan as god and God as Satan and so choose to follow Satan's gospel, not God's. The great lie of Satan is in us all from birth. So, to answer your question about my reply, they do seek to justify themselves to him whom they perceive as god (but who is not God) but are blind to the Gospel of the true God and so do not want nor are concerned with their justification before Him.

n all actuality, Rom 2:14-15 clearly states that the gentiles do by nature the things contained in the law. We see the same thing today. There are people who do not believe in God, yet hold themselves to an ethical standard that in some respects is in alignment with God's law (not good to steal, lie, cheat, etc., etc.).

There is nothing a man can do to save himself; God alone must do that for us for He is the Saviour. Those who become saved do demonstrate the attributes of a Christian, but that is an effect, not a cause. Many people who are unsaved maintain very high ethical and moral standards relative to law because they believe by so doing, they assist with their salvation, however, that is not the correct yardstick to measure one's salvation.

The point of the passage, however, is that even gentiles who do by nature the things contained in the law are still in need of salvation through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no salvation outside of Him.

I would state it as "by the faith OF the Lord Jesus Christ" however, I couldn't agree more with your last sentence.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

I am kind of tired and not thinking too clearly, so I really hope my reply makes sense and addressed your questions.
I reread tomorrow and may reply to you again

 

[brightfame52]

Umm, you really have a problem my friend, what i am talking about the word ordain that man can appoint. It's not about people can remit sins or give eternal life.

Acts 13:48 is speakig about men being ordained to eternal life, thats Gods jurisdiction not mans.

 

[John146]

Acts 13:48 is speakig about men being ordained to eternal life, thats Gods jurisdiction not mans.

Things that are ordained are not necessarily fixed. It was ordered by God for the gospel to eventually go to the Gentiles. God had ordained Gentiles to eternal life through believing the gospel.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Grandpa said:
Man believes from their heart of stone, unto Righteousness???

Or the New Heart that God gives them? Making Righteousness a gift as well...

Sounds like robotics to me.

Exactly!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Acts 13:48 is speakig about men being ordained to eternal life, thats Gods jurisdiction not mans.

No it is not. The Greek word doesn't mean to appoint or ordain. It means to line up in order. And the voice is either middle or passive, depending on the context.

We know from the text that Luke used the word in the middle voice, meaning they lined themselves up to hear the Word.

v.44 - On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.

This verse demonstrates the eagerness of the people (including Gentiles) to hear what Paul was preaching. So this verse shows that the Gentiles were lining up themselves in order to hear the Word.

But calvinists will reject this because it refutes their presumptions.

 

[Grandpa]

FreeGrace2 said:
Right, and that is the point.

We DON'T "trust in ourselves for faith". We trust IN Jesus Christ for salvation. What's wrong with that?

Ro 10:10 SAYS that man believes from the heart. That is where we believe from.

Where does your belief come from?

It is really amazing to see how much hostility you have for Rom 10:10. Why is that?


Since Epoh 2:5 and 8 prove that regeneration and faith are THROUGH FAITH, you need to divest yourself of the calvinistic notion that man must be regenerated so he can believe.

Why is FAITH listed as a fruit of the Spirit, if its NOT a gift of God?

Why does God BOTHER giving men a New Heart if they don't need it? They can just use their heart of stone to believe unto Righteousness.


Its ok that you're totally confused on what the bible says. Most people are. But to try and argue against scripture because you prefer your IMAGINATION and WILL is comical.

 

[Grandpa]

Sounds like robotics to me.

Sounds like "you can do nothing without me".

Which is Scripture.

 

[John146]

Sounds like "you can do nothing without me".

Which is Scripture.

Did King Agrippa understand the scriptures? Did he have the Holy Spirit? Was he saved?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Right, and that is the point.

We DON'T "trust in ourselves for faith". We trust IN Jesus Christ for salvation. What's wrong with that?

Ro 10:10 SAYS that man believes from the heart. That is where we believe from.

Where does your belief come from?

It is really amazing to see how much hostility you have for Rom 10:10. Why is that?

Why is FAITH listed as a fruit of the Spirit, if its NOT a gift of God?

All spiritual gifts are given to those who are ALREADY saved. So you can quit the claim that God gives faith to save people.

Why does God BOTHER giving men a New Heart if they don't need it?

Wrong conclusion. Of course all men need one. And God gives a "new heart" to those who have believed. It's part of regeneration.

They can just use their heart of stone to believe unto Righteousness.

Except there is NOTHING in Ezek 36 that shows that God gives a new heart of flesh SO THAT THEY CAN BELIEVE. That is just your PRESUMPTION. But the Bible doesn't ever say that regeneration precedes salvation. And Eph 2:5 and 8 prove the opposite.

Both regeneration and salvation are THROUGH FAITH. Faith comes first. Get used to it.

Its ok that you're totally confused on what the bible says.

You should quit embarrassing yourself with YOUR calvinist confusion.

Most people are. But to try and argue against scripture because you prefer your IMAGINATION and WILL is comical.

Said the guy who continually argues against Scripture.

1. The Bible says that Jesus Christ died for everyone.
2. The Bible says that man believes from the heart.
3. The Bible says that believers are encouraged to remain in the faith (persevere), showing it isn't guaranteed.
4. The Bible says that election is about service, and never about salvation.

So go ahead and argue against what the Bible says.

 

[fredoheaven]

Acts 13:48 is speakig about men being ordained to eternal life, thats Gods jurisdiction not mans.

Acts 13:48, does not say "who ordained" that's your stretch. What's is being commanded, ordered, set, appointed is that Paul brings the gospel not only to Jews but also the Gentiles. V.47. Reading the context, shew us that it is only through the preaching of Jesus we will have the forgiveness of sins to those who believe. Those who believe will be justified, synonymous to that of the saved or given eternal life. vv 38-39. By the way the word ordain as used in the Bible can be of God, can be of man or both. Here, you have a problem, not believing the scripture that men or the apostle can ordained and that is what I point. I am not pointing to you, men can deliver, remit sins or give eternal life. Perhaps, you lacked reading of the scripture and haven't read Acts 16:4 that apostles and the elders ordained decrees.
Acts 16:4
And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

 

[brightfame52]

Things that are ordained are not necessarily fixed. It was ordered by God for the gospel to eventually go to the Gentiles. God had ordained Gentiles to eternal life through believing the gospel.

Thats contrary to scripture.