I see in the Bible a number of elders
appointed from within the very church they are a part of. I see in scripture elders charged with pastoring the church/flock of God.
I see in scripture 'every one of you' sharing a psalm, teaching, tongue, revelation or interpretation-- unto edifying, with more instruction to set parameters and clarify that. I see where Paul commanded the church to let the prophets speak two or three and to let the other judge, and 'for ye may all prophesy' one by one.
But I go to church and I see one pastor. I see him giving one sermon. I see hierarchical titles not found in scripture like 'senior pastor'. But I see Jesus is the chief Pastor in I Peter 5.
Are these churches false? Do the leaders all have no grace to lead or teach?
I also see in scripture that members of the body of Christ can be sent. The Spirit can send, and then the men sent recognized as 'apostles'. The church is not left without scripture that shows how 'the work' can be continued. I see in Ephesians 4 that Jesus gave gifts, including apostles, after the ascension, though the original Twelve were appointed before it.
But I can go to churches and see no application of this or conflicting ideas. I can encounter Christians in these churches who consider the idea of an 'apostle' doing ministry these days to be blasphemy or heresy, with no scripture rightly interpreted that backs that up.
And then I can go to churches where 'apostle' is used for a church leader who is basically creating another layer of hierarchy, trying to be a 'senior pastor' to 'junior pastors.' His layer of hierarchy is called 'apostle' and theirs 'senior pastor' and neither title is in scripture.
If I'm going to consider this last category with their fuzzy hierarchical idea of 'apostle' as unbelieving heretics, why wouldn't I consider all the 'senior pastor' churches the same way? Why wouldn't I think the same way of churches that have board 'elders' but call a 'pulpit minister' an 'evangelist?' I do not see these different patterns of ecclesiology in scripture.
But does that mean that no one in any of these movements has any grace to minister? Do people come to faith in Christ through their ministry? Do those who come to faith learn the word of God and grow? Do they have any spiritual gifts that minister to others? Do they bear the types of fruits in their lives that the Bible talks about.
I could find someone in either the regular 'senior pastor' evangelical churches or the NAR type 'apostle' groups who taught some serious error or sinned, probably, if I started digging. Does that mean no one else that we put these labels on has good fruit?
I also look in the Bible and see messes in churches. The Corinthians are probably the best example. They probably did not understand spiritual gifts. They were dividing into groups-- apparently some were labeling themselves after their favorite ministers. There was even a fornicator having sex with his own step-mother. If he took his father's widow to wife or if it was even more shocking of a scenario, I do not know. Paul did not use the word 'adultery' there. But they were tolerating this sin and shouldn't. Then Paul warned them about all kinds of sin, idolatry, adultery, same-sex sex between men, and went into detail a bit about why not to have sex with a prostitute. What were these people into?
And doctrinally, there were people saying there was no resurrection of the dead! An attack on a core doctrine of the Christian faith.
But he considered them to be believers, and there were people among them operating in genuine gifts of the Spirit. Churches can be messy. I try not to be too quick to dismiss others as unbelievers. And those who are quick to do so often have some kind of doctrinal issues themselves, and sometimes their accusations are at least partly based on their perspective as someone with doctrinal error.
As far as who God has saved, that is up to God. We as believers have to have concern about who we fellowship with, eat with, etc. So there are some practical issues.
@SophieT @Rhomphaeam
