The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.
- Thread starter Marilyn
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
WHY IS THERE NO NEED FOR A 'PRE TRIB APOSTASY'?
Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
WHAT DID PETER SAY THAT WAS SO BAD AS IF TO COME FROM SATAN? SUFFER AND BE KILLED. PETER SAID NO, NO WAY. JESUS BASICALLY SAID YOU ARE CARNAL
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
PRE TRIB SAYS THE EXACT SAME THING ABOUT THE CHURCH.
'GOD WOULD NEVER ALLOW THE CHURCH TO BE TESTED'
23 But He turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD NEVER BE QUESTIONED IF IT WEREN'T FOR 'PRE TRIB APOSTASY'?
WHEN
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
WHAT DID PETER SAY THAT WAS SO BAD AS IF TO COME FROM SATAN? SUFFER AND BE KILLED. PETER SAID NO, NO WAY. JESUS BASICALLY SAID YOU ARE CARNAL
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
PRE TRIB SAYS THE EXACT SAME THING ABOUT THE CHURCH.
'GOD WOULD NEVER ALLOW THE CHURCH TO BE TESTED'
23 But He turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD NEVER BE QUESTIONED IF IT WEREN'T FOR 'PRE TRIB APOSTASY'?
WHEN
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works.
The regicide is the reason given for the destruction of the city. It happened ,as per Christ, with a generation of his prophetic word. The judgement was historically and geographically local but its effects are still felt today. Only those who saw Him in the flesh could commit this particular crime and they all lived as contemporaries of Christ. These are just a few basic reasons the 'great tribulation' is a past event and unique in history, never to be repeated. Those watching ang hoping to see it start may as well join with those still awaiting the First Advent. Israel had before been brought down and every instance ended with the promise of return. Not this time. the kingdom has been taken away and given to the nation that produces its fruit. This is the real 'greatness' of the trouble, it is the covenantal destruction of ancient Israel , punishment rather than chastisement . This had never before been imposed and though the warnings began with Moses , they were not headed.
SATAN AND ANGELS CAST TO EARTH IS THE ONLY OTHER TIME ANGELS WERE ON EARTH 'GIVING AND TAKING IN MARRIAGE'* (except for little influx done away with sword)
BEING IN CHRIST IS
BEING IN THE ARK,
BEING KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION,
BEING DELIVERED FROM EVIL
BECAUSE HE IS THE WORD AND THE WORD IS OUR ARMOR AGAINST DECEPTION AND LYING SIGNS AND WONDERS AND BEING TAKEN BY THE ANTICHRIST.
THE FLOOD IN THE DAYS OF TRIBULATION IS CAST OUT BY SATANS MOUTH AKA LIES DECEPTION FALSE DOCTRINES THAT MAKE VOID THE WORDS OF GOD.
JESUS CAN NOT COME TO THE EARTH BEFORE SATAN KICKED OUT OF HEAVEN AS PER COMMAND OF GOD (those who 'believe' He has come and set forth verses 'that prove it' are to be expected to arise as we are told of the many false prophets)
PRE TRIBULATION DOCTRINE IS 'UNTEMPERED MORTAR' AS NOT ONE WORD OF IT IS WRITTEN.
MANY FALSE CHRISTS ARE COMING TO DECEIVE EVEN GODS VERY ELECT
Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: AND THEN SHALL ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH MOURN, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
PRE TRIB TELLS US AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN THAT 'THE EARTH WILL MOURN' WHEN THEY SEE THEY ARE LEFT BEHIND, but THAT ISN'T WHAT IS WRITTEN. THEY WILL ALL MOURN WHEN SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY
AND WHEN IS THAT
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
*(except for little influx done away with sword)
BEING IN CHRIST IS
BEING IN THE ARK,
BEING KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION,
BEING DELIVERED FROM EVIL
BECAUSE HE IS THE WORD AND THE WORD IS OUR ARMOR AGAINST DECEPTION AND LYING SIGNS AND WONDERS AND BEING TAKEN BY THE ANTICHRIST.
THE FLOOD IN THE DAYS OF TRIBULATION IS CAST OUT BY SATANS MOUTH AKA LIES DECEPTION FALSE DOCTRINES THAT MAKE VOID THE WORDS OF GOD.
JESUS CAN NOT COME TO THE EARTH BEFORE SATAN KICKED OUT OF HEAVEN AS PER COMMAND OF GOD (those who 'believe' He has come and set forth verses 'that prove it' are to be expected to arise as we are told of the many false prophets)
PRE TRIBULATION DOCTRINE IS 'UNTEMPERED MORTAR' AS NOT ONE WORD OF IT IS WRITTEN.
MANY FALSE CHRISTS ARE COMING TO DECEIVE EVEN GODS VERY ELECT
Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: AND THEN SHALL ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH MOURN, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
PRE TRIB TELLS US AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN THAT 'THE EARTH WILL MOURN' WHEN THEY SEE THEY ARE LEFT BEHIND, but THAT ISN'T WHAT IS WRITTEN. THEY WILL ALL MOURN WHEN SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY
AND WHEN IS THAT
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
*(except for little influx done away with sword)
Most certainly THE WHOLE WORLD was not worshipping SATAN. Most certainly 'the one' people today CLAIM as being worshipped AS GOD was NOT PERFORMING ANY LYING SIGNS AND WONDERS. Most certainly there was no HOUR in which 10 CROWNS were being worn by ANGELS cast out with Satan. Most certainly there was NO FLOOD OF LIES taking place to deceive the whole world.
THE TEMPLE was destroyed JUST AS CHRIST SAID IT WOULD BE. BUT that HAPPENED TO THAT GENERATION.
IF indeed GREAT TRIBULATION had taken place then ALL THE KINGDOMS WOULD BE GOING YEAR AFTER YEAR TO WORSHIP AT THE TEMPLE. There is no temple for this to be done. ALSO, all who were 'ALIVE AND REMAINING' would have been CHANGED.
AND CESAR WOULD HAVE BEEN BOUND IN THE EARTH WITH A SEAL SET UPON HIM.
There would have been
MANY FALSE PROPHETS, CLAIMING THERE IS CHRIST, or there is Christ? none were.
which NATIONS AGAINST NATIONS AND KINGDOMS AGAINST KINGDOMS were taking place at the time? (since it was basically a 'one world order)
what famines were taking place?
earthquakes, were any of those known to be taking place?
did it seem as if those who ENDURED to the end 'in the temple' were saved?
who EXACTLY of GODS ELECT were DECEIVED INTO BELIEVING THAT CHRIST HAD RETURNED AND WAS IN FACT, 'CESAR'?
Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit.
ANY recordings of that?
SO while I would agree 100% THE 70 AD DESTRUCTION TOOK PLACE UP BECAUSE OF
Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
AND WHEN 20 MINUTES LATER HIS DISCIPLES CAME UNTO HIM PRIVATELY THIS WAS SPEAKING OF THE 'TRIBULATION AND GREAT TRIBULATION' THAT IS DISTINCTLY FUTURE.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
FOR TRIBULATION TO HAVE TAKEN PLACE THEN WHAT FOLLOWS GREAT TRIBULATION MUST HAVE ALSO TAKEN PLACE,
AND NONE OF IT HAS
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
^ Whenever Paul spoke [wrote] about us [/the Church which is His body] as "temple," he never used the definite article ('the')... that is, in the Greek.
[yet, the 2 eschatological references to "THE temple of God" are written using the definite article; consider also that we/the Church which is His body will not be present on the earth at the same time that it will be (that is, during the specific, future, LIMITED time-period we call the "7 yr Tribulation period" aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c speaks of]
[yet, the 2 eschatological references to "THE temple of God" are written using the definite article; consider also that we/the Church which is His body will not be present on the earth at the same time that it will be (that is, during the specific, future, LIMITED time-period we call the "7 yr Tribulation period" aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c speaks of]
-
1
- Show all
Your post brought to mind an old post of mine... which matter I find few desire to look into and examine closely:
[quoting old post]
Re: "CALLED"... and the TWO distinct Greek words translated "CALL/CALLED" (or "INVITE/INVITED"):
G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name"
G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon"
It is important to notice how EACH of these is used in BOTH [/EACH] the Matthew 22:1-14 passage AND the Romans 8:28,30 verses
G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name" -
Matthew 22:3 V-ANA
GRK: δούλους αὐτοῦ καλέσαι τοὺς κεκλημένους
NAS: out his slaves to call those
KJV: servants to call them that were bidden
INT: servants of him to call those having been invited
Matthew 22:3 V-RPM/P-AMP
GRK: καλέσαι τοὺς κεκλημένους εἰς τοὺς
NAS: those who had been invited to the wedding feast,
KJV: to call them that were bidden to
INT: to call those having been invited to the
Matthew 22:4 V-RPM/P-DMP
GRK: Εἴπατε τοῖς κεκλημένοις Ἰδοὺ τὸ
NAS: those who have been invited, Behold,
KJV: Tell them which are bidden, Behold,
INT: Say to those having been invited Behold the
Matthew 22:8 V-RPM/P-NMP
GRK: οἱ δὲ κεκλημένοι οὐκ ἦσαν
NAS: but those who were invited were not worthy.
KJV: but they which were bidden were
INT: those moreover having been invited not were
[NOTE: these ^ had rejected the invitation/call, per vv.3,5,6]
Matthew 22:9 V-AMA-2P
GRK: ἐὰν εὕρητε καλέσατε εἰς τοὺς
NAS: as you find [there], invite to the wedding feast.'
KJV: ye shall find, bid to
INT: if you shall find invite to the
Romans 8:30 V-AIA-3S
GRK: τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν καὶ οὓς
NAS: He also called; and these
KJV: he also called: and whom
INT: these also he called and whom
G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon" -
Matthew 22:14 Adj-NMP
GRK: γάρ εἰσιν κλητοὶ ὀλίγοι δὲ
NAS: For many are called, but few
KJV: many are called, but few
INT: indeed are called few however
Romans 8:28 Adj-DMP
GRK: κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς οὖσιν
NAS: to those who are called according
KJV: to them who are the called according
INT: according to [his] purpose called are
[note: the Matthew 22:1-7,8-14 passage is referring to the "guests [plural]" of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom which will be commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, whereas the Romans 8 passage is referring to (that which pertains to) "the Church which is His body" (who is not "the guests [plural]"), so there's that distinction to be noted also--not that this makes much difference in how these two words are used (re: call/invite)]
[quoting from BibleHub]
"In the NT, 2822 /klētós ("divinely called") focuses on God's general call – i.e. the call (invitation) He gives to all people, so all can receive His salvation. God desires every person to call out to Him and receive His salvation (1 Tim 2:4,5). "Unfortunately, many choose not to – but all can; all don't but all can call out to God for His mercy (not just 'some')" (G. Archer)." [source: BibleHub]
[end quoting old post]
[quoting old post]
Re: "CALLED"... and the TWO distinct Greek words translated "CALL/CALLED" (or "INVITE/INVITED"):
G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name"
G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon"
It is important to notice how EACH of these is used in BOTH [/EACH] the Matthew 22:1-14 passage AND the Romans 8:28,30 verses
G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name" -
Matthew 22:3 V-ANA
GRK: δούλους αὐτοῦ καλέσαι τοὺς κεκλημένους
NAS: out his slaves to call those
KJV: servants to call them that were bidden
INT: servants of him to call those having been invited
Matthew 22:3 V-RPM/P-AMP
GRK: καλέσαι τοὺς κεκλημένους εἰς τοὺς
NAS: those who had been invited to the wedding feast,
KJV: to call them that were bidden to
INT: to call those having been invited to the
Matthew 22:4 V-RPM/P-DMP
GRK: Εἴπατε τοῖς κεκλημένοις Ἰδοὺ τὸ
NAS: those who have been invited, Behold,
KJV: Tell them which are bidden, Behold,
INT: Say to those having been invited Behold the
Matthew 22:8 V-RPM/P-NMP
GRK: οἱ δὲ κεκλημένοι οὐκ ἦσαν
NAS: but those who were invited were not worthy.
KJV: but they which were bidden were
INT: those moreover having been invited not were
[NOTE: these ^ had rejected the invitation/call, per vv.3,5,6]
Matthew 22:9 V-AMA-2P
GRK: ἐὰν εὕρητε καλέσατε εἰς τοὺς
NAS: as you find [there], invite to the wedding feast.'
KJV: ye shall find, bid to
INT: if you shall find invite to the
Romans 8:30 V-AIA-3S
GRK: τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν καὶ οὓς
NAS: He also called; and these
KJV: he also called: and whom
INT: these also he called and whom
G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon" -
Matthew 22:14 Adj-NMP
GRK: γάρ εἰσιν κλητοὶ ὀλίγοι δὲ
NAS: For many are called, but few
KJV: many are called, but few
INT: indeed are called few however
Romans 8:28 Adj-DMP
GRK: κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς οὖσιν
NAS: to those who are called according
KJV: to them who are the called according
INT: according to [his] purpose called are
[note: the Matthew 22:1-7,8-14 passage is referring to the "guests [plural]" of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom which will be commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, whereas the Romans 8 passage is referring to (that which pertains to) "the Church which is His body" (who is not "the guests [plural]"), so there's that distinction to be noted also--not that this makes much difference in how these two words are used (re: call/invite)]
[quoting from BibleHub]
"In the NT, 2822 /klētós ("divinely called") focuses on God's general call – i.e. the call (invitation) He gives to all people, so all can receive His salvation. God desires every person to call out to Him and receive His salvation (1 Tim 2:4,5). "Unfortunately, many choose not to – but all can; all don't but all can call out to God for His mercy (not just 'some')" (G. Archer)." [source: BibleHub]
[end quoting old post]
-
1
- Show all
Exactly My POINT. Not going to be one till THE LORD RETURNS. I am not saying 'fake' ones won't come or people wont set up 'tents' and call it what they will but TILL THEN we are the 'lively stones' making up the temple BUT when Christ returns AS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, there will BE LAW AND ORDER and land by LOTS, and divisions by tribes and as it is laid out in Ezekiel and else where, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN WILL COME TO PASS and Christ will sit upon the THRONE OF DAVID. God didn't mark Jerusalem for any old reason. God didn't give us all those 'details' for no reason either.
FreeGrace2 said:
Since you've dusted off your Bible, could you point me to the verse that has Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven please?
OK, if you're not interested or able to defend your position, that's ok.
Since you've dusted off your Bible, could you point me to the verse that has Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven please?
OK, if you're not interested or able to defend your position, that's ok.
- Status