Is it possible to determine God’s divine will through casting lots in the present day?

[Pilgrimshope]

Correct. One could say that Mathias was a "fill-in" unto Paul was commissioned. So Paul is indeed the 12th, and there are no others than the twelve apostles of the Lamb, who will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Mt 18:28).

Getting back to the casting of lots, that was valid in the OT, but is not recommended for Christians. However, if you want to study Probability Theory, no one will stop you.

amen that’s my belief also also we have the pattern of the twelve tribes in the ot which also appear at the gates attended by angels The other 12 elders just as mannasah was cut out and replaced so was Judas

“And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Oblio]

I'm glad that we can agree to disagree...we can work on the "without being disagreeable" part.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I'm glad that we can agree to disagree...we can work on the "without being disagreeable" part.

yes Gods the only one who is going to bring change in ones conviction we often try to do it with a bludgeoning instrument but it doesn’t work it just creates this environment

“For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we want to make others see what we do but only God is able to change those deep thoughts and convictions he does it when we are able to move out from our fleshly attitudes , pride , and insistence of being right and anyone who doesn’t agree is wrong the carnal
Operation will never lead to the spiritual truth

but intentional peace and sharing the word among ourselves can and will bring our minds into shape once we find humility and reverence for his ways

 

[Runningman]

Correct. One could say that Mathias was a "fill-in" unto Paul was commissioned. So Paul is indeed the 12th, and there are no others than the twelve apostles of the Lamb, who will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Mt 18:28).

Getting back to the casting of lots, that was valid in the OT, but is not recommended for Christians. However, if you want to study Probability Theory, no one will stop you.

Acts 1 says that Matthias replaced Judas as an apostle. Are you saying they were wrong? Furthermore, I don't see a problem with their being 13 apostles. Why can't Matthias be a God adorned apostle like Paul was?

 

[Oblio]

How about, "Rock, Paper, Scissors," that would work, wouldn't it? It would be more fun, too!

 

[Runningman]

yes right the ot folk weren’t believers that’s why they didn’t receive christ but we’re set under the angels instead those ot doctrines are because of unbelief if they had the Holy Spirit and a relationship where they heard from God personally why would they then cast lots ?

they didn’t have the Holy Ghost in them so they had an external law they were dead and blind so To make decisions they did things like cast lots. Christ hadn’t come yet to offer the reconciliation and fullness of the Holy Ghost taking his rightful place inside the heart and mind of man

the ot folk weren’t believers brother they didn’t believe because they couldn’t hear. So they were given the law and ways of the ot all Outward commands given to these kinds of folks

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they couldn’t see and hear until Christ came to offer the Holy Ghost but we’re actually enemies of God and rejected him from the start when they worshipped the golden calf and took
Up the tabernacle of moloch

Isreal Wouldn’t hear and believe it’s a lesson we can learn from them

“Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:11‬ ‭

someone with the holy spirit has no need to cast lots to make decisions the ot wasn’t based on Mans belief but on thier unbelief and stiff necks of rebellion

it’s why the ot doctrine is so different from the new just my own opinion though

Jesus' s 11 disciples already had the Holy Spirit after the resurrection of Christ, pre-ascension.

John 20:22
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

They were waiting for power from the Holy Spirit to come upon them while they waited in Jerusalem. This isn't the same thing as waiting for the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. People can have the Holy Spirit in them but also have no power. It's completely by God's will and not something people can control.

Acts 1:4-5
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 1:8
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you...

Given that the 11 apostles already had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit within them according to John 20:22, I humbly request you rethink your stance.

 

[Runningman]

Refuting some of the common points of opposition to the use of casting lots:

1. The unbelievers casted lots at the cross to get the clothes of Jesus:

They did this because it was fulfillment of God-ordained prophecy, as mentioned by the prophet in Psalm 22:18:

Matthew 27:35KJV
35And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Lev. 16:8 KJV
8And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

2. They 11 apostles were instructed to wait so they should not have casted lots to pick Matthias:

The 11 apostles were instructed to wait for power from the Holy Spirit when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit, but they were not without the Holy Spirit:

Acts 1:4-5 KJV
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 1:8 KJV
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you...

3. The 11 apostles did not have the Holy Spirit yet so that's why they casted lots because they didn't know how to determine God's will:

Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to His 11 apostles post-resurrection, pre-ascension, so they already had the Holy Spirit. That means it's possible to still have the Holy Spirit and see casting lots as a valid method of determining God's will:

John 20:22 KJV
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost...

4. Paul is the real 12th apostle:

There isn't anything in scripture that I am aware of that creates a problem with having 13 or more apostles. The 11 apostles in Acts 1:24-26 believed Matthias was an apostle of God through the casting of lots. They also accepted Paul as an apostle of God. If the apostles all accepted each other as valid maybe we should too?

Acts 1:26 KJV
26And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

2 Timothy 1:1 KJV
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

5. There can't be 13 apostles:

This claim is not found in scripture as far as I am aware.

6. Casting lots is not recommended for Christians:

And yet the Bible says that Christians, who were filled with the Holy Spirit, were using the method of casting lots to determine God's will:

John 20:22 KJV
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost...

Acts 1:26 KJV
26And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Conclusion: Having weighed and divided the scripture, I have come to the conclusion that casting lots is a method that can be used to determine God's will, supplemented by prayer. Furthermore, the New Testament does not forbid casting lots.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Acts 1 says that Matthias replaced Judas as an apostle. Are you saying they were wrong? Furthermore, I don't see a problem with their being 13 apostles. Why can't Matthias be a God adorned apostle like Paul was?

my opinion is that apostles only 12 men were ever chosen by Jesus in person that’s part of what makes an apostle .

Matthias was chosen before the Holy Ghost was given , by casting lots. The apostles including Paul were each one chosen by Jesus in person . And apppinted and called by him the Christ not by casting lots.

Peter was told to wait until they received power from God receiving the Holy Ghost Matthias was chosen by casting lots this way

“They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.”
‭‭John‬ ‭19:24

if Matthias was chosen by casting lots , he’d be the only apostle not chosen by Jesus in person and called and apppinted tonthe great commission. He appears only one time after his ascention and that’s to Paul the apostle when he chose and appointed him

Matthias wasn’t chosen even by a person with the Holy Ghost but in the same way the Romans decided who got Jesus garments

again it’s only what I think but it seems exactly 12 men were chosen by Jesus himself Judas was appointed to betray him and fulfill scripture which left left eleven , then later Jesus chose Paul in person and appointed him to be an apostle Matthias didn’t have that experience instead Peter decided not having the Holy Ghost to cast lots

that isn’t how apostles were chosen and appointed in scripture 12 were chosen and appointed the same way the eleven and Paul

“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Apostles are messengers so maybe Peter and Paul appointed thier own messengers but Jesus appointed 12

 

[JStates]

Casting lots is a form of divination known as cleromancy. It’s used to determine something by rolling dice or drawing straws for example. The idea is that since since it’s random then God can manifest His will through casting lots.

In the Old Testament they cast lots as a means of determining Gods will.

To name just a few examples:

Leviticus 16:8 - God commanded Moses to cast lots upon two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat.

Numbers 26:25 - Moses gave territory to the 12 tribes of Israel by casting lots.

Joshua 7:14 - someone is found guilty by casting lots.

And many more…

A post-crucifixion example of casting lots is the 11 apostles deciding who to replace Judas with through the casting of lots.

Acts 1:24-26 KJV
24And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 26And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

So the question is can we use the casting of lots as a Biblical method to discern God’s will in the present day? Why or why not?

My answer is yea, citing the above post-crucifixion example of Christians casting lots.

I have heard a different view of the casting of lots to choose Matthias, that this was a fleshly attempt to fulfill God's will but not divinely motivated. Do we even hear about Matthias again in the Scriptures?

According to this view, Paul was the 12th apostle chosen directly by Jesus Christ in a miraculous fashion.

Not answering the main question, just adding some flavor to the discussion.

 

[Runningman]

I have heard a different view of the casting of lots to choose Matthias, that this was a fleshly attempt to fulfill God's will but not divinely motivated. Do we even hear about Matthias again in the Scriptures?

According to this view, Paul was the 12th apostle chosen directly by Jesus Christ in a miraculous fashion.

Not answering the main question, just adding some flavor to the discussion.

That's a view shared by several people in this thread. Prior to making this OP I hadn't considered the views your promoting, but after hearing them I'm forced to examine them. After examining the scriptures I have to reject them and here's why:

Claim 1: "that this was a fleshly attempt to fulfill God's will... "

Casting lots was a God-ordained method in the Old Testament

Leviticus 16:8 - God commanded Moses to cast lots upon two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat.

Numbers 26:25 - Moses gave territory to the 12 tribes of Israel by casting lots.

Joshua 7:14 - someone is found guilty by casting lots.

And there are dozens more examples.

Claim 2: "..but not divinely motivated."

The 11 apostles received the Holy Spirit in John 20:22, prior to the ascension of Jesus, before Pentecost. If they were not divinely motivated then what is?:

John 20:22 KJV
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Claim 3: "According to this view, Paul was the 12th apostle..."

Acts 1:26 says that Matthias was numbered among the apostles so that would make Matthias the 12th apostle, since he was an apostle before Paul, and Paul would be the 13th apostle. If you want to get technical, since the death of Judas Iscariot, Matthias could be considered the 13th and Paul the 14th.

Acts 1:26
26And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Just some points to consider. God bless.

 

[Runningman]

my opinion is that apostles only 12 men were ever chosen by Jesus in person that’s part of what makes an apostle .

Apparently not because the 11 apostles chose an apostle without Christ. I think their opinion about how to chose an apostle probably trumps ours. Do you trust them or not?

Matthias was chosen before the Holy Ghost was given

John 20:22 says the 11 apostles received the Holy Ghost before Pentecost:

John 20:22
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

The apostles including Paul were each one chosen by Jesus in person . And apppinted and called by him the Christ not by casting lots.

That's true, I don't think that's a problem.

Peter was told to wait until they received power from God receiving the Holy Ghost Matthias was chosen by casting lots this way

They were just told to go to Jerusalem and wait to receive Holy Spirit power. They weren't forbidden from electing a new apostle.

“They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.”
‭‭John‬ ‭19:24

if Matthias was chosen by casting lots , he’d be the only apostle not chosen by Jesus in person and called and apppinted tonthe great commission. He appears only one time after his ascention and that’s to Paul the apostle when he chose and appointed him

That's true as far as we can tell from scripture. I don't see that it's a problem. This is possibly because Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus and killed himself. That was a bit of a plot twist because Jesus was not supposed to lose any He was given:

John 18:9
9That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

Matthias wasn’t chosen even by a person with the Holy Ghost but in the same way the Romans decided who got Jesus garments

When Matthias was chosen by the apostle through the casting of lots, the 11 apostles already had the Holy Spirit as shown in John 20:22.

again it’s only what I think but it seems exactly 12 men were chosen by Jesus himself Judas was appointed to betray him and fulfill scripture which left left eleven , then later Jesus chose Paul in person and appointed him to be an apostle Matthias didn’t have that experience instead Peter decided not having the Holy Ghost to cast lots

According to Acts 1:24-26, Matthias was made an apostle through the will of God.

that isn’t how apostles were chosen and appointed in scripture 12 were chosen and appointed the same way the eleven and Paul

Maybe there isn't a box for how apostles are chosen? Clearly Matthias was an apostle. I am not sure why you are rejecting the authority of the 11 apostles. Why are you doing that?

“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That's a vision of something in the New Jerusalem in the New Earth. That isn't clear which 12 apostles it is speaking of.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Furthermore, I don't see a problem with their being 13 apostles.

If God says there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb, and you contradict Him, then there is a very serious problem. You have virtually called God a liar, since He has actually embedded the names of the twelve apostles in the twelve foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem.

And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel... And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (Rev 21:12,14)

 

[JStates]

That's a view shared by several people in this thread. Prior to making this OP I hadn't considered the views your promoting, but after hearing them I'm forced to examine them. After examining the scriptures I have to reject them and here's why:

Claim 1: "that this was a fleshly attempt to fulfill God's will... "

Casting lots was a God-ordained method in the Old Testament

Leviticus 16:8 - God commanded Moses to cast lots upon two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat.

Numbers 26:25 - Moses gave territory to the 12 tribes of Israel by casting lots.

Joshua 7:14 - someone is found guilty by casting lots.

And there are dozens more examples.

Claim 2: "..but not divinely motivated."

The 11 apostles received the Holy Spirit in John 20:22, prior to the ascension of Jesus, before Pentecost. If they were not divinely motivated then what is?:

John 20:22 KJV
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Claim 3: "According to this view, Paul was the 12th apostle..."

Acts 1:26 says that Matthias was numbered among the apostles so that would make Matthias the 12th apostle, since he was an apostle before Paul, and Paul would be the 13th apostle. If you want to get technical, since the death of Judas Iscariot, Matthias could be considered the 13th and Paul the 14th.

Acts 1:26
26And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Just some points to consider. God bless.

Thanks for the reply. I'm not actually sold on this idea myself. I was only very recently exposed to it in a sermon I heard in the last couple weeks. Still thinking it over.

 

[JStates]

If God says there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb, and you contradict Him, then there is a very serious problem. You have virtually called God a liar, since He has actually embedded the names of the twelve apostles in the twelve foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem.

And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel... And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (Rev 21:12,14)

That's actually pretty interesting. Twelve is an important number for some reason. Months of the year. Tribes of Israel. Apostles.

Would have saved us some brainpower if Revelation had listed out those names, lol

 

[Magenta]

And the 11 apostles believed God picked Matthias through the casting of lots. There's not denying that either.

Yep. They acted against Jesus' instruction to wait.

As far as I can tell, Jesus just told them to wait for the Holy Spirit:

Acts 1:4-5
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

There is no record of them being instructed to select an apostle to replace Judas.

The record shows they took it upon themselves to do so, at Peter's urging.

 

[Oblio]

There are actually 13 tribes.

 

[JStates]

There are actually 13 tribes.

I've heard it put that way too. The Bible says that those who believe in Christ are true Jews in spirit. So Gentile Christians are a 13th tribe of sorts.

And Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. Hmmm...

 

[Oblio]

I've heard it put that way too. The Bible says that those who believe in Christ are true Jews in spirit. So Gentile Christians are a 13th tribe of sorts.

And Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. Hmmm...

I'm talking the physical descendants. The 13th tribe is Levi.

 

[Magenta]

“Ephraim is joined unto idols. Let her alone.”

 

[JStates]

I'm talking the physical descendants. The 13th tribe is Levi.

Weren't Ephraim and Mannaseh half-tribes or something like that?