An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation
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ALL of those passages prove that our Glorified Bodies ONLY take place at His Second Coming.
ALL of the Saints you see in Rev up to ch20 are the Spirits of the Dead in Christ waiting for the Resurrection.
God does not want you ignorant of this:
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
ALL of the Saints you see in Rev up to ch20 are the Spirits of the Dead in Christ waiting for the Resurrection.
God does not want you ignorant of this:
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
That passage says we meet Christ in the air. It is then that we will precede to the judgment etc etc
Nothing in that passage says he returns to earth boots on the ground.
If you using this to try to disprove pre trib, You wasting your time.
This thread is about the 144000 not the rapture. Can we stick to the subject?
Nothing in that passage says he returns to earth boots on the ground.
If you using this to try to disprove pre trib, You wasting your time.
This thread is about the 144000 not the rapture. Can we stick to the subject?
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Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Galatians 3:16 KJV
This says promises (plural) in every version of the Bible I can find. I don't know what version of the Bible you are looking at.
If the promises go to Christ and those in Christ it has still fulfilled the promise of land being given to descendants, just not all of the descendants. The promises don't go to all of the descendants per Romans 9. And all in Christ are Abraham's seed.
"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:29 KJV
Are you claiming that Christians are not descendants of Abraham through Christ?
Why do you persist in this evil of false speech? It's not too late! Turn around.
Reel this back for a second here. What you are claiming is that "promises" in Gal 3 that were made to Abraham would actually be referring to a different set of "promises" than those given to Abraham in the OT.
How are you differentiating these sets of promises? In your view what are the promises to Abraham that Gal 3 is talking about?
No. Show me the passage that states "these promises were made to the nation of Israel". The promises are Christ's and those in Christ. This happens to beg inclusive of some that were born from the bloodline of Jacob/Israel, but not exclusive to them because the promise is through Christ. Again, Gal 3:29 spells it out.
John saw 144000. This could be an abstract symbol within the vision, it could also be the spirited form of the saints resurrected at the crucifixion. I don't have a problem with interpreting the 144,000 as ethnic Jews. I also don't have a problem with the interpretation that they are abstract symbolism in the same way that there weren't literally 10 virgins trying to enter the kingdom of heaven with lamps.
Make your case if you think otherwise. Rev 7:4 does not say "nation of Israel." Rev 7:4 says "from all the tribes of Israel"
What are you talking about here?
This says promises (plural) in every version of the Bible I can find. I don't know what version of the Bible you are looking at.
If the promises go to Christ and those in Christ it has still fulfilled the promise of land being given to descendants, just not all of the descendants. The promises don't go to all of the descendants per Romans 9. And all in Christ are Abraham's seed.
"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:29 KJV
Are you claiming that Christians are not descendants of Abraham through Christ?
Why do you persist in this evil of false speech? It's not too late! Turn around.
Reel this back for a second here. What you are claiming is that "promises" in Gal 3 that were made to Abraham would actually be referring to a different set of "promises" than those given to Abraham in the OT.
How are you differentiating these sets of promises? In your view what are the promises to Abraham that Gal 3 is talking about?
No. Show me the passage that states "these promises were made to the nation of Israel". The promises are Christ's and those in Christ. This happens to beg inclusive of some that were born from the bloodline of Jacob/Israel, but not exclusive to them because the promise is through Christ. Again, Gal 3:29 spells it out.
John saw 144000. This could be an abstract symbol within the vision, it could also be the spirited form of the saints resurrected at the crucifixion. I don't have a problem with interpreting the 144,000 as ethnic Jews. I also don't have a problem with the interpretation that they are abstract symbolism in the same way that there weren't literally 10 virgins trying to enter the kingdom of heaven with lamps.
Make your case if you think otherwise. Rev 7:4 does not say "nation of Israel." Rev 7:4 says "from all the tribes of Israel"
What are you talking about here?
Since the LORD spoke of these things which HE wants us to know.
A. His Second Coming
B. Enduring through Tribulation
C. World events leading up to His Coming
D. Warning of deception - false teachers, prophets, doctrines of demons
E. the spirit of antichrist, many antichrists and finally the "man of sin" = the antichrist
F. Warning against the Mark of the Beast
G. His Coming = Resurrection of the Dead in Him
H. His Coming = destruction of the antichrist and his followers
I. His Coming = transformed into His Likeness
J. His Coming = Reigning and Ruling with Him on thrones of Glory
Fully agree with you that knowledge of these things does not prove spirituality.
Neither does ignorance of these things.
A. His Second Coming
B. Enduring through Tribulation
C. World events leading up to His Coming
D. Warning of deception - false teachers, prophets, doctrines of demons
E. the spirit of antichrist, many antichrists and finally the "man of sin" = the antichrist
F. Warning against the Mark of the Beast
G. His Coming = Resurrection of the Dead in Him
H. His Coming = destruction of the antichrist and his followers
I. His Coming = transformed into His Likeness
J. His Coming = Reigning and Ruling with Him on thrones of Glory
Fully agree with you that knowledge of these things does not prove spirituality.
Neither does ignorance of these things.
There you go again. You impute into my open question a meaning that is not there. I simply asked in what manner of body was Moses and Elijah found on the mount of Transfiguration. Moses had put off his earthly body - Elijah was yet alive in his earthly body. Yet they were indistinguishable from Christ in their countenance. And you seriously ask me to give you any account of why I believe in a mid tribulation rapture?
Then ask Him. I did.
Then ask Him. I did.
Looking to argue without the desire to seek truth is not complimentary to the desire of the Holy Spirit.
When i ask questions it for the direct purpose to understand what the Member is seeking to convey and/or to challenge the Member to think more deeply into Scripture to see if those things are in complete agreement with Scripture.
There are many false doctrines that have arisen over the past 2,000 years since Christ & the Apostles walked this earth.
This also is not pleasing to the Holy Spirit.
"And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
“So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified."
Acts ch20
When i ask questions it for the direct purpose to understand what the Member is seeking to convey and/or to challenge the Member to think more deeply into Scripture to see if those things are in complete agreement with Scripture.
There are many false doctrines that have arisen over the past 2,000 years since Christ & the Apostles walked this earth.
This also is not pleasing to the Holy Spirit.
"And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
“So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified."
Acts ch20
I am not arguing. Neither do you simply ask questions when you are asked a question and then inferentially impute a meaning which then affords you an opportunity to tell me that I am effectively grieving the Holy Spirit when I do ask plain questions. If I do decline to answer a simple question qualified in your stated terms as to your righteous simplify (as you would have me receive them) then when I answer in my own understanding why I regard eschatological discussions to be a vanity - you correct me and use the very name of the Lord to uphold your correction. In all things I am corrected and in all things I am found in error.
So what does your wife's Rabbi understand when you tell him that you believe in the Ruach HaKodesh? And do you expressly define the Neshamah when you tell him that you love him? Or do you believe that the Rabbi holds to the person of the Holy Spirit as true God?
So what does your wife's Rabbi understand when you tell him that you believe in the Ruach HaKodesh? And do you expressly define the Neshamah when you tell him that you love him? Or do you believe that the Rabbi holds to the person of the Holy Spirit as true God?
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