Two Resurrections, Two Deaths, Three Lives.

[Mem]

Rev 21:4 says there will no longer be [any] death;

Without changing the word 'death' to 'dying,' there is only one way to reconcile dead 'forever and ever' and no more death, which Strong's Greek explains as thanatos, physical or spiritual.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 21:4 says there will no longer be [any] death;

It also says there is no more pain. That rules out people being in pain forever.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is correct translation:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

There is no "they". The verse only says devil will be tormented day and night for ever and ever and that is very likely to be a figure of speech does not mean for ever and ever literally.

Nice try, but no dice.

I assume you use the KJV. However, ALL English translations on biblehub.com include "they", EXCEPT the KJV.

King James Bible
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

New King James Version
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Even the interlinear of this verse includes "they".

So you don't have a case at all. Your 1 translation against ALL the others.

[QUOE]I have already explained the idea of a "greater damnation". Not all get the same level of punishment.[/QUOTE]
And I have already explained this. Jesus taught that it will be "more tolerable" for citizens of Sodom & Gomorha than for some cities during jesus' day.

God can easily make one person die instantly in the lake of fire and others taking longer to die.

Of course. The Bible SAYS that God IS ABLE to destroy the soul

What you DON'T HAVE is any verse that actually says that God has or will destroy any soul.

You lack evidence for your opinion.

I said:
"Annihilationism is unbiblical. The word "they" in Rev 10:10 refutes that idea thoroughly."

It is biblical and that verse does not refute it at all.

It is NOT biblical and you have NO evidence for your opinion.

It speaks of one person tormented forever and that is a figure of speech so you have ZERO evidence for your position which was created by the early RCC.

I don't care what the RCC believe. My position is based on the FACT that the Bible NEVER says that God has or will destroy souls.

You are the one who needs such a verse for evidence for annihilation.

And calling Rev 20:10 a "figure of speech" is just a desperate attempt to justify your unjustified opinion.

1/6 of the Early churches' theological schools taught eternal torment, ROME, where the birth of the Catholic church and Jesuits originated from.

I couldn't care less. You hace ZERO evidence for soul killing.

Rome is well known for paganism, perversions and heresies and the labeling of true doctrines as heresies. They are responsible for a massive number of Christian murders and torturing (no wonder they like doctrines that teach about torture). Most people consider that denomination to be antichrist and where the actual Antichrist will come from. Why believe in their doctrine??

Quit trying to hide behind the RCC as "bad theology". Sure, they are full of it. But the simple FACT is, you have no evidence for God having ever killed anyone's soul, or that some humans will cease to exist.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Mem said:
Rev 21:4 says there will no longer be [any] death;

It also says there is no more pain. That rules out people being in pain forever.

You really should pay attention to context Rev 21:4 describes life in the eternal state, which is only for believers on the new earth.

There will be no death or pain there.

In fact, there will be no pain in heaven NOW as well.

 

[DavidTree]

This is correct translation:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

There is no "they". The verse only says devil will be tormented day and night for ever and ever and that is very likely to be a figure of speech does not mean for ever and ever literally.






I have already explained the idea of a "greater damnation". Not all get the same level of punishment. God can easily make one person die instantly in the lake of fire and others taking longer to die.






It is biblical and that verse does not refute it at all. It speaks of one person tormented forever and that is a figure of speech so you have ZERO evidence for your position which was created by the early RCC.


1/6 of the Early churches' theological schools taught eternal torment, ROME, where the birth of the Catholic church and Jesuits originated from. Rome is well known for paganism, perversions and heresies and the labeling of true doctrines as heresies. They are responsible for a massive number of Christian murders and torturing (no wonder they like doctrines that teach about torture). Most people consider that denomination to be antichrist and where the actual Antichrist will come from. Why believe in their doctrine??

Good Morning - OP - Are we resurrected in our physical bodies and spirits at the same time?

 

[Mem]

Mem said:
Rev 21:4 says there will no longer be [any] death;

You really should pay attention to context Rev 21:4 describes life in the eternal state, which is only for believers on the new earth.

There will be no death or pain there.

In fact, there will be no pain in heaven NOW as well.

Keep in my the written language is limited to the processes of expressing and deciphering concrete signs and symbols into abstract concepts into meaning with an added risk of cognitive interference in the transfer but, I realize that believers are the only ones conscious and showed that there is no death or pain there or anywhere, from my point of view, or anywhere, that is, no longer 'any' pain, no longer 'any' death, i.e. to be found anywhere not limiting it to just 'there.' Without looking up the verse, as I am fully convinced and confident of your knowledge of scripture saying, "the death are conscious of nothing."

 

[FreeGrace2]

Keep in my the written language is limited to the processes of expressing and deciphering concrete signs and symbols into abstract concepts into meaning with an added risk of cognitive interference in the transfer but, I realize that believers are the only ones conscious and showed that there is no death or pain there or anywhere, from my point of view, or anywhere, that is, no longer 'any' pain, no longer 'any' death, i.e. to be found anywhere not limiting it to just 'there.'

Quite a long sentence. Did you perchance review it before you posted? The first 2 lines hardly make sense.

For me, words mean things, and much of the Bible is quite straightforward.

Without looking up the verse, as I am fully convinced and confident of your knowledge of scripture saying, "the death are conscious of nothing."

Even this sentence doesn't make sense.

Are you trying to say "the DEAD are not conscious"? If so, you qre quite wrong. People who physically die are STILL quite conscious of where they are in eternity.

Believers are conscious in heaven, and unbelievers are in a place of torments. If dead unbelievers are in a place of torments, you can be quite sure they ARE VERY conscious.

It is unconscious people who cannot be tormented.

 

[ewq1938]

Nice try, but no dice.

I assume you use the KJV. However, ALL English translations on biblehub.com include "they", EXCEPT the KJV.

The Greek word for they is not in the manuscripts.

 

[ewq1938]

Mem said:
Rev 21:4 says there will no longer be [any] death;

You really should pay attention to context Rev 21:4 describes life in the eternal state, which is only for believers on the new earth.

There will be no death or pain there.

In fact, there will be no pain in heaven NOW as well.

There won't be pain at all, not in the lake of fire because no one can survive that.

 

[Mem]

The Greek word for they is not in the manuscripts.

And neither is the English word 'torment.'

 

[Mem]

There won't be pain at all, not in the lake of fire because no one can survive that.

Seeing that it won't be as much as remembered anymore, I can't imagine there being any sort of 'secret chamber of torment,'

 

[ewq1938]

And neither is the English word 'torment.'

The Greek word is there in the manuscripts:

G928
βασανίζω
basanizō
bas-an-id'-zo
From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.
Total KJV occurrences: 12

 

[Mem]

Quite a long sentence. Did you perchance review it before you posted? The first 2 lines hardly make sense.

For me, words mean things, and much of the Bible is quite straightforward.


Even this sentence doesn't make sense.

Are you trying to say "the DEAD are not conscious"? If so, you qre quite wrong. People who physically die are STILL quite conscious of where they are in eternity.

Believers are conscious in heaven, and unbelievers are in a place of torments. If dead unbelievers are in a place of torments, you can be quite sure they ARE VERY conscious.

It is unconscious people who cannot be tormented.

The Greek word is there in the manuscripts:

G928
βασανίζω
basanizō
bas-an-id'-zo
From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.
Total KJV occurrences: 12

torment is derived from a word meaning 'blackstoned' which means judged as in a death sentence,
whereas receiving a whitestone (as in with your name written upon it) is to life.

 

[Magenta]

Believers are conscious in heaven, and unbelievers are in a place of torments. If dead
unbelievers are in a place of torments, you can be quite sure they ARE VERY conscious.

Scripture says outright that the dead know nothing.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Good Morning - OP - Are we resurrected in our physical bodies and spirits at the same time?

Definitely not. No physical resurrection till the second coming. Before that, we SLEEP. Also, that PRECEDEs the rapture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Nice try, but no dice.

I assume you use the KJV. However, ALL English translations on biblehub.com include "they", EXCEPT the KJV.

The Greek word for they is not in the manuscripts.

Not exactly true. Do you believe in interlinears?

This is from biblehub.com's interlinear for Rev 20:10 -

right under the Greek word translated tormented:

"they will be tormented"

Which would explain why EVERY English translation except the KJV includes "they".

Not hard to figure out.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There won't be pain at all, not in the lake of fire because no one can survive that.

Your statements are quite stunning.

Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Now, you are free to ignore or reject what this verse says, but being "tormented day and night for ever and ever" does mean pain.

I'm amazing that the annihilationists are so aligned with atheists.

If any person ceases to exist, then there is no punishment. But Scripture says tormenting will be for ever and ever.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And neither is the English word 'torment.'

Really?

From biblehub.com

basanizó: to torture
Original Word: βασανίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: basanizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bas-an-id'-zo)
Definition: to torture
Usage: I examine, as by torture; I torment; I buffet, as of waves.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Believers are conscious in heaven, and unbelievers are in a place of torments. If dead
unbelievers are in a place of torments, you can be quite sure they ARE VERY conscious.

Scripture says outright that the dead know nothing.

Consider context, please.

The verse refers to dead people as opposed to living people.

If dead people know nothing, please explain Rev 6:9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

The "they" in v.10 and v.11 and the "them" in v.11 all refer to "the souls who had been slain" in v.9.

Doesn't look like they "know nothing". Rather, it SHOWS that they KNOW SOMETHING.

 

[Magenta]

FreeGrace2 said:
Believers are conscious in heaven, and unbelievers are in a place of torments. If dead
unbelievers are in a place of torments, you can be quite sure they ARE VERY conscious.

Consider context, please.

The verse refers to dead people as opposed to living people.

If dead people know nothing, please explain Rev 6:9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

The "they" in v.10 and v.11 and the "them" in v.11 all refer to "the souls who had been slain" in v.9.

Doesn't look like they "know nothing". Rather, it SHOWS that they KNOW SOMETHING.

Good morning First off and again, Rev is a highly symbolic book. But even with that aside, that one verse does not say they were conscious the whole time of them waiting. Many other verses say those who are saved and pass on sleep in Christ. Sleep is not a euphemism for wakeful awareness as so many claim. I mean really, the idea that is, is is outlandish.