Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[rogerg]

Who has said that? I have asked a number of times.

Either God gives it to us as a gift, or it has to be of ourselves. I say it is, and can only be, from God though Christ as Saviour. You believe otherwise. There is no middle ground. Which do you believe? And you are evading my question. Why is that so hard for you to answer?

 

[Magenta]

Either God gives it to us as a gift, or it has to be of ourselves. I say it is, and can only be, from God though Christ as
Saviour. You believe otherwise. There is no middle ground. Which do you believe? And you are evading my question.

Where have I said I believe otherwise?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

God does not offer it to anyone - He gives it to those whom He has so chosen for it.

Sorry, But this is not scriptural. And puts Gods character on the line..

We are all born under sin and deemed guilty by God from the womb. There is no technicality available that would us to offer to us a legal plea or justification before God for sin.

[Psa 58:2-3 KJV]
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Yet God so loved THE WORLD, he gave his only son, that WHOEVER (of this world) believes....

The HS is sent to the WORLD to convict of sin righteousness and judgment

Jesus was sent to the LOST (that would be every one of us who has not recieved the gift of Salvation)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

My goodness.

This is what you said, that I asked about, and was commented
on by at least one other, and you change it again? Really???


I even bolded it so you would see what I was asking about.

But somehow you twist it into me not believing in Christ. How very devilish of you.

they do not understand what we believe, they were told what we believe and they will listen blindly whether it is true or not

 

[Magenta]

they do not understand what we believe, they were told what we believe and they will listen blindly whether it is true or not

Somehow me asking "who says we generate faith of ourselves" gets twisted into me not believing in Jesus.

A pretense is put forth that I was asked a question I was not, have said things I did not, believe things
I do not, don't believe that which I do, and all manner of nonsense that he demands I answer to.

All while he refuses to answer a simple straightforward question.

Then he accuses me of evasion. LOL!

Good thing we know who the father of all lies is

 

[rogerg]

Sorry, But this is not scriptural. And puts Gods character on the line..

Oh, but it is scriptural:

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Yet God so loved THE WORLD, he gave his only son, that WHOEVER (of this world) believes....

He does not love this world but He

Jesus was sent to the LOST (that would be every one of us who has not recieved the gift of Salvation)

loves the world to come that He loves. Please observe:

[1Jo 2:15 KJV]
15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

[Jhn 18:36 KJV]
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Jesus was sent to the LOST (that would be every one of us who has not recieved the gift of Salvation)

Jesus was sent to save those, and only those, that the Father gave to Him

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[rogerg]

they do not understand what we believe, they were told what we believe and they will listen blindly whether it is true or not

Okay, what do you "we" believe? Is it by Christ alone as Saviour, or is it otherwise. You can clarify it right now.
Please be specific.

 

[fredoheaven]

You have it backwards, when the Gospel is the power of God it causes conversion to faith, and it only comes in power to Gods elect 1 Thess 1:4-5

4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Umm, because you jump into another passage of scripture, you did not even counter my proposition in Romans 1:16, not a bit. Now looking into the context of 1 Thess.1:4-5, you have missed v.3 that the election is referring to as service. Noticed the word "work of faith", labour of love, and patience of hope" these are actually the fruit of our service, they are what the election of God Paul is being referred to. Understanding what the gospel of Christ results in salvation through faith and we're elected of God to service.

 

[fredoheaven]

Sorry fredoheaven, respectfully, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree. True belief is a fruit of the Spirit given when someone becomes born-again - I don't believe it is a choice anyone makes - it is a gift:

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Umm, quite a difference to what Paul is saying. Romans 1:16 is how we are saved. Galatians 5:22 are for those who are already saved.

 

[kaylagrl]

Yes God created the non elect to suffer His eternal vengeance for their sins, and He created the elect to experience His Rich Mercy for their sins.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

The Word says he loved/loves the whole word. You're maligning the character of God.

 

[John146]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

The Word says he loved/loves the whole word. You're maligning the character of God.

But we all know that the whosoever is only going to be those God has elected....

 

[brightfame52]

Umm, because you jump into another passage of scripture, you did not even counter my proposition in Romans 1:16, not a bit. Now looking into the context of 1 Thess.1:4-5, you have missed v.3 that the election is referring to as service. Noticed the word "work of faith", labour of love, and patience of hope" these are actually the fruit of our service, they are what the election of God Paul is being referred to. Understanding what the gospel of Christ results in salvation through faith and we're elected of God to service.

Like stated, you have it backwards.

 

[brightfame52]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

The Word says he loved/loves the whole word. You're maligning the character of God.

Okay, doesnt change anything. God made some people for the purpose of magnifying His justice by the damming them for their sins, and He made others, the vessels of Mercy to magnify His Mercy and Grace, Rom 9

 

[rogerg]

Umm, quite a difference to what Paul is saying. Romans 1:16 is how we are saved. Galatians 5:22 are for those who are already saved.

Christ Himself IS the gospel of Christ, and He alone IS the power of God unto salvation. I'd have to say
that i agree with you, that Galatians 5:22 is for those who are already saved - that actually was my point: that true faith can only be obtained from, by, and when, someone becomes saved, but not before.

 

[kaylagrl]

How do you know that?

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse" (Romans 1:20)

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt.24

That is how I know.

If they're too young to understand to have faith and die what happens to them?

They go to heaven, the same as King David could know his son went to heaven.

Where in the Bible do you find this? Please show it to me.

, “For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted. (Isaiah 7:16; ESV)

So you believe that has never, ever happened - that someone who hasn't heard of Christ and died? A doctrine can't be based upon
what may or may not have happened individually (even though I don't believe that dreams of Jesus constitute the hearing of the Gospel). And you're saying that it happens (if it did happen) in ALL cases? I don't believe it.

I believe what the Word says...

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse" (Romans 1:20)

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt.24

Jer. 13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

I'm saying the doctrine you espouse, if believed, leads to that conclusion - your doctrine, not mine

My "doctrine" is the verses posted above. No one will stand before God and say I didn't have a chance to know You. That is the Word. Take it or leave it.

 

[rogerg]

Sorry, But this is not scriptural. And puts Gods character on the line..

Disagree. We are saved solely by His mercy, and nothing we may, or may not have done. If we contribute anything to it, it can't be
by His mercy. Everything else flows from, by, that.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[rogerg]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

The Word says he loved/loves the whole word. You're maligning the character of God.

Nope - you have the wrong world in view. God is referring to the world to come, not this current world. He does not love this world.
Please observe

[1Jo 2:15 KJV] 15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

[Jhn 18:36 KJV] 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[kaylagrl]

Okay, doesnt change anything. God made some people for the purpose of magnifying His justice by the damming them for their sins, and He made others, the vessels of Mercy to magnify His Mercy and Grace, Rom 9

“And he (Jesus) is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:2


“There is NOOOO respect of persons with God.” Romans 2:11

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALLLLLL men unto me.” John 12:32

“one died for ALL” – 2 Corinthians 5:14.

“he died for all” – 2 Corinthians 5:15.

God sent His only begotten Son to die for the sins of “the WHOLE world” – 1 John 2:2

Whosoever will...

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Oh, but it is scriptural:

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Oh but its not. Because a few verses later. Jesus said it is the will of the father that everyone who sees and believes.

Everyone there saw Jesus, But as jesus said, some could not hear what he was saying, because they did not believe.

He does not love this world but He

So Jesus lied??

Ok whatever

loves the world to come that He loves. Please observe:

Jesus loves his creation. He will not however, force his creation to love him. FOr this reason he has places us ALL under sin through adam, that all may be (have the possibility) to be made alive in christ.

[1Jo 2:15 KJV]
15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

[Jhn 18:36 KJV]
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.



Jesus was sent to save those, and only those, that the Father gave to Him

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Yep

That same world. he came to die for. So those in the world could be saved.

God is not a respector of persons.. We are all guilty. and God died for us all..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Okay, what do you "we" believe? Is it by Christ alone as Saviour, or is it otherwise. You can clarify it right now.
Please be specific.

Its christ alone my friend.

The person who was drowning and totally helpless and unable to save himself did not earn his salvation because he had faith in the one who came to rescue him and said yes.

The one who saved him gets all the credit.