Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[TheLearner]

"9. This Psalm can be taken as in the Person of Christ another way; which is that whole Christ should speak. I mean by whole, with His body, of which He is the Head, according to the Apostle, who says, You are the body of Christ, and the members. 1 Corinthians 12:27 He therefore is the Head of this body; wherefore in another place he says, But doing the truth in love, we may increase in Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ, from whom the whole body is joined together and compacted. Ephesians 4:15-16 In the Prophet then at once, the Church, and her Head (the Church founded amidst the storms of persecution throughout the whole world, which we know already to have come to pass), speaks, O Lord, how are they multiplied that trouble me! Many rise up against me; wishing to exterminate the Christian name. Many say unto my soul, There is no salvation for him in his God. For they would not otherwise hope that they could destroy the Church, branching out so very far and wide, unless they believed that God had no care thereof. But You, O Lord, art my taker; in Christ of course. For into that flesh the Church too has been taken by the Word, who was made flesh, and dwelt in us; John 1:14 for that In heavenly places has He made us to sit together with Him. Ephesians 2:6 When the Head goes before, the other members will follow; for, Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Romans 8:35 Justly then does the Church say, You are my taker. My glory; for she does not attribute her excellency to herself, seeing that she knows by whose grace and mercy she is what she is. And the lifter up of my head, of Him, namely, who, the First-born from the dead, Colossians 1:18 ascended up into heaven. With my voice have I cried unto the Lord, and He heard me out of His holy mountain. This is the prayer of all the Saints, the odour of sweetness, which ascends up in the sight of the Lord. For now the Church is heard out of this mountain, which is also her head; or, out of that justice of God, by which both His elect are set free, and their persecutors punished. Let the people of God also say, I slept, and took rest; and rose, for the Lord will take me up; that they may be joined, and cleave to their Head. For to this people is it said, Awake you that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall lay hold on you. Ephesians 5:14 Since they are taken out of sinners, of whom it is said generally, But they that sleep, sleep in the night. 1 Thessalonians 5:7 Let them say moreover, I will not fear the thousands of people that surround me; of the heathen verily that compass me about to extinguish everywhere, if they could, the Christian name. But how should they be feared, when by the blood of the martyrs in Christ, as by oil, the ardour of love is inflamed? Arise, O Lord, save me, O my God. The body can address this to its own Head. For at His rising the body was saved; who ascended up on high, led captivity captive, gave gifts unto men. For this is said by the Prophet, in the secret purpose of God, until that ripe harvest Matthew 9:37 which is spoken of in the Gospel, whose salvation is in His Resurrection, who vouchsafed to die for us, shed out our Lord to the earth. Since You have smitten all who oppose me without a cause, You have broken the teeth of the sinners. Now while the Church has rule, the enemies of the Christian name are smitten with confusion; and, whether their curses or their chiefs, brought to nought. Believe then, O man, that salvation is of the Lord: and, You, O Lord, may Your blessing be upon Your people. "
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801003.htm

 

[TheLearner]

Texts are posted for encouragement.

"31. He Ascended into Heaven, and Sits on the Right Hand of the Father: from Thence He Shall Come to Judge the Quick and the Dead. These clauses follow with suitable brevity at the end of this part of the Creed which treats of the Son. What is said is plain, but the question is how and in what sense it is to be understood. For to ascend, and to sit, and to come, unless you understand the words in accordance with the dignity of the divine nature, appear to point to something of human weakness. For having consummated what was to be done on earth, and having recalled souls from the captivity of hell, He is spoken of as ascending up to heaven, as the Prophet had foretold, Ascending up on high He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men, those gifts, namely, which Peter, in the Acts of the Apostles, spoke of concerning the Holy Ghost, Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, He has shed forth this gift which you do see and hear. He gave the gift of the Holy Ghost to men, because the captives, whom the devil had before carried into hell through sin, Christ by His resurrection from death recalled to heaven. He ascended therefore into heaven, not where God the Word had not been before, for He was always in heaven, and abode in the Father, but where the Word made flesh had not been seated before. Lastly, since this entrance within the gates of heaven seemed new to its ministers and princes, they say to one another, on seeing the nature of flesh penetrating into the secret recesses of heaven, as David full of the Holy Ghost, declares, Lift up your gates, you princes, and be lifted up ye everlasting gates, and the King of glory shall enter in. Who is the King of glory? The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle. Which words are spoken not with reference to the power of the divine nature, but with reference to the novelty of flesh ascending to the right hand of God. The same David says elsewhere, God has ascended jubilantly, and the Lord with the sound of the trumpet. For conquerors are wont to return from battle with the sound of the trumpet. Of Him also it is said, Who builds up His ascent in heaven. And again, Who has ascended above the cherubims, flying upon the wings of the winds. "
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2711.htm

 

[TheLearner]

Chapter 50 [XXIX.]— Righteousness is the Gift of God
Let no man therefore boast of that which he seems to possess, as if he had not received it; 1 Corinthians 4:7 nor let him think that he has received it merely because the external letter of the law has been either exhibited to him to read, or sounded in his ear for him to hear. For if righteousness is by the law, then Christ has died in vain. Galatians 2:21 Seeing, however, that if He has not died in vain, He has ascended up on high, and has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men, it follows that whosoever has, has from this source. But whosoever denies that he has from Him, either has not, or is in great danger of being deprived of what he has. For it is one God which justifies the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith; Romans 3:30 in which clauses there is no real difference in the sense, as if the phrase by faith meant one thing, and through faith another, but only a variety of expression. For in one passage, when speaking of the Gentiles — that is, of the uncircumcision, — he says, The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen by faith; Galatians 3:8 and again, in another, when speaking of the circumcision, to which he himself belonged, he says, We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Jesus Christ. Observe, he says that both the uncircumcision are justified by faith, and the circumcision through faith, if, indeed, the circumcision keep the righteousness of faith. For the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith, Romans 9:30 — by obtaining it of God, not by assuming it of themselves. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. And why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works Romans 9:31-32 — in other words, working it out as it were by themselves, not believing that it is God who works within them. For it is God which works in us both to will and to do of His own good pleasure. Philippians 2:13 And hereby they stumbled at the stumbling-stone. Romans 9:32 For what he said, not by faith, but as it were by works, Romans 9:32 he most clearly explained in the following words: They, being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes. Romans 10:3-4 Then are we still in doubt what are those works of the law by which a man is not justified, if he believes them to be his own works, as it were, without the help and gift of God, which is by the faith of Jesus Christ? And do we suppose that they are circumcision and the other like ordinances, because some such things in other passages are read concerning these sacramental rites too? In this place, however, it is certainly not circumcision which they wanted to establish as their own righteousness, because God established this by prescribing it Himself. Nor is it possible for us to understand this statement, of those works concerning which the Lord says to them, You reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition; Mark 7:9 because, as the apostle says, Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Romans 9:31 He did not say, Which followed after their own traditions, framing them and relying on them. This then is the sole distinction, that the very precept, You shall not covet, Exodus 20:17 and God's other good and holy commandments, they attributed to themselves; whereas, that man may keep them, God must work in him through faith in Jesus Christ, who is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes. Romans 10:4 That is to say, every one who is incorporated into Him and made a member of His body, is able, by His giving the increase within, to work righteousness. It is of such a man's works that Christ Himself has said, Without me you can do nothing. John 15:5

Chapter 51.— Faith the Ground of All Righteousness
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1502.htm

 

[TheLearner]

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01286.htm
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01283.htm
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1503.htm

"And these things the prophets proclaim every day, each of them in a different way publishing this glorious triumph. For one says, You have gone up on high, You have led captivity captive, and hast received gifts among men. And, The Lord strong and mighty in battle. And another says, He shall divide the spoils of the strong. Isaiah 53:12 For indeed to this purpose He came, that He might preach deliverance to captives, and recovery of sight to the blind. "
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200119.htm

"14. Since those also which are called our deserts, are His gifts. For, that faith may work by love, the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. And He was then given, when Jesus was glorified by the resurrection. For then He promised that He Himself would send Him, and He sent Him; because then, as it was written and foretold of Him, He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. These gifts constitute our deserts, by which we arrive at the chief good of an immortal blessedness. But God, says the apostle, commends His love towards as, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more, then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. To this he goes on to add, For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son; much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Those whom he first calls sinners he afterwards calls the enemies of God; and those whom he first speaks of as justified by His blood, he afterwards speaks of as reconciled by the death of the Son of God; and those whom he speaks of first as saved from wrath through Him, he afterwards speaks of as saved by His life. "
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130113.htm

 

[kenallen]

Hi, Ken, if someone accused your father of being a murderous tyrant who tortured people in ways too incredibly sadistic to comprehend, would you not feel a need to speak in defense of him?

If you've seen Jesus, you've seen the Father, and Jesus would NEVER burn people alive for all eternal ages in flames of eternal torment.

KJV Dictionary Definition: torment
torment
TOR'MENT, n. L. tormentum.; torqueo, torno; Eng. tour; that is, from twisting, straining.
1. Extreme pain; anguish; the utmost degree of misery, either of body or mind.
The more I see
Pleasure about me, so much I feel
Torment within me.
Lest they also come into this place of torment. Luke 16. Rev.9. 14.
2. That which gives pain, vexation or misery.
They brought to him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments. Matt. 4.
3. An engine for casting stones.
tormented
TORMENT'ED, pp. Painted to extremity; teased; harassed.
tormenting
TORMENT'ING, ppr. Paining to an extreme degree; inflicting severe distress and anguish; teasing; vexing.
TORMENT'ING, n. In agriculture, an imperfect sort of horse-hoeing.
Definitions from Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language, 1828.
Growing up I loved my dad; one of the reasons was you knew where the line was and you know that if you crossed it there would be a price to pay. That is the same way with God we cross the line there is a price to pay. If I didn't complete a chore around the house that price was less than if I did not come home when I was told to, or I just took off with out leaving a note or telling someone. If I rape a little girl or boy do I not deserve to be put to death. I thank this applies "do unto others as you want them to do to you. The rich man got what was coming to him

 

[TheLearner]

"upon Him the entire operation of the Spirit of grace, which, so far as the Jews were concerned, would cease and come to an end. This result the case itself shows; for after this time the Spirit of the Creator never breathed among them. From Judah were taken away the wise man, and the cunning artificer, and the counsellor, and the prophet; that so it might prove true that the law and the prophets were until John. Luke 16:16 Now hear how he declared that by Christ Himself, when returned to heaven, these spiritual gifts were to be sent: He ascended up on high, that is, into heaven; He led captivity captive, meaning death or slavery of man; He gave gifts to the sons of men, that is, the gratuities, which we call charismata. He says specifically sons of men, and not men promiscuously; thus exhibiting to us those who were the children of men truly so called, choice men, apostles. For, says he, I have begotten you through the gospel; 1 Corinthians 4:15 and You are my children, of whom I travail again in birth. Galatians 4:19 Now was absolutely fulfilled that promise of the Spirit which was given by the word of Joel: In the last days will I pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh, and their sons and their daughters shall prophesy; and upon my servants and upon my handmaids will I pour out of my Spirit. "
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03125.htm

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

Most interesting

"
24. The course of instruction in the Faith would lead me to speak of the Ascension also; but the grace of God so ordered it, that you heard most fully concerning it, as far as our weakness allowed, yesterday, on the Lord's day; since, by the providence of divine grace, the course of the Lessons in Church included the account of our Saviour's going up into the heavens ; and what was then said was spoken principally for the sake of all, and for the assembled body of the faithful, yet especially for your sake. But the question is, did you attend to what was said? For you know that the words which come next in the Creed teach you to believe in Him Who rose again the third day, and ascended into Heaven, and sat down on the right hand of the Father. I suppose then certainly that you remember the exposition; yet I will now again cursorily put you in mind of what was then said. Remember what is distinctly written in the Psalms, God is gone up with a shout ; remember that the divine powers also said to one another, Lift up your gates, you Princes , and the rest; remember also the Psalm which says, He ascended on high, He led captivity captive ; remember the Prophet who said, Who builds His ascension unto heaven ; and all the other particulars mentioned yesterday because of the gainsaying of the Jews.

25. For when they speak against the ascension of the Saviour, as being impossible, remember the account of the carrying away of Habakkuk: for if Habakkuk was transported by an Angel, being carried by the hair of his head , much rather was the Lord of both Prophets and Angels, able by His own power to make His ascent into the Heavens on a cloud from the Mount of Olives. Wonders like this you may call to mind, but reserve the preeminence for the Lord, the Worker of wonders; for the others were borne up, but He bears up all things. Remember that Enoch was translated Hebrews 11:5; but Jesus ascended: remember what was said yesterday concerning Elias, that Elias was taken up in a chariot of fire 2 Kings 2:11; but that the chariots of Christ are ten thousand-fold even thousands upon thousands : and that Elias was taken up, towards the east of Jordan; but that Christ ascended at the east of the brook Cedron: and that Elias went as into heaven ; but Jesus, into heaven: and that Elias said that a double portion in the Holy Spirit should be given to his holy disciple; but that Christ granted to His own disciples so great enjoyment of the grace of the Holy Ghost, as not only to have It in themselves, but also, by the laying on of their hands, to impart the fellowship of It to them who believed."
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310114.htm

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Actually, Jesus didn't give a parable about Lazarus and a rich man. He gave us a glimpse of life after death. There are no second chances. Everyone is accountable for their decisions.

We know it is not a parable because Jesus mentioned proper names, including Abraham and the discussion between Abraham and the rich man. No way that is a parable.

Jesus' account also proves that there is no such thing as soul sleep.

Actually, the fact that the passage is so filled with things which contradict other things Jesus Himself said and things written by Bible authors who were inspired by the Jesus' Spirit...proves it cannot but be a parable.

Where do you get that this "contradicts other things Jesus said"??? Please support your claim.

For instance, Jesus told Solomon to tell us the dead don't know anything...which means Jesus telling a story in which dead people know things should be an immediate sign to anyone who believes ALL the Scripture that He's speaking in parables, which Matthew 13:34-35 KJV said Jesus would do as a fulfillment of the OT prophecy in Psalms 78:1-2 KJV.

One simply needs to understand what Solomon meant: he was describing a dead body. It doesn't know anything. When people misunderstand how "dead" is used in Scripture, it is easy to fall into false doctrine.

BTW, the idea that "proper names" mentioned in passages means nothing.

I understand why someone who is convinced that Lazarus was a parable would say that "proper names" mean nothing. But, of course, they do, because in EVERY instance of where parables are CALLED parables, no proper names are mentioned.

And of course, Abraham himself was in Jesus' account of lazarus. Abraham is a real person, therefore the account is real.

And, Paradise is also called Abraham's bosom. Why in the world would Jesus place a REAL PERSON into a parable?

Jotham used proper names of trees (Olive, Fig, etc) in what is clearly understood to be "Jotham's parable of the trees".

Are you serious?? Calling a tree by its classification is hardly a "proper name". lol

The reason Jesus said "Lazarus" is because very soon the real Lazarus would be raised and the Jews would go away in unbelief plotting to kill them all, as a fulfillment of what Abraham said in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

Lazarus was a common name. No dice.

I really love how the Bible is so harmonious when the OT says Jesus would come and speak parables like the Rich Man and Lazarus and the NT confirms the OT prediction.

Jesus spoke in many parables, and most of the time they were even called or described as parables. But NOT the account of Lazarus and the rich man.

Jesus actually gave us a glimpse of the afterlife in OT times.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The rich man likely lived an evil life. Lazarus was likely a righteous man.

To clarify, the rich man was not saved and Lazarus was saved.

 

[Runningman]

The rich man likely lived an evil life. Lazarus was likely a righteous man.

The passage about Lazarus actually reveals his sin. He was at least slothful, lazy, unwilling to work for food. He just begs and offers nothing, not even willing to offer any service. Yet he still made it to comfort. Furthermore, it never says the rich man did wrong to Lazarus or other people. It just seems to condemn him for being wealthy and having good things in life.

This parable is a warning about the dangers of riches. That's clear because lazy people unwilling to work don't receive blessings from God under the Old Covenant. Rich people don't go to torment of fire either or some of the well-known prophets would be in a lot of trouble such as Job and Abraham who himself made it to the place of comfort.

This parable doesn't make sense as literal.

 

[TheLearner]

read to here

 

[kenallen]

Hi, Ken, if someone accused your father of being a murderous tyrant who tortured people in ways too incredibly sadistic to comprehend, would you not feel a need to speak in defense of him?

If you've seen Jesus, you've seen the Father, and Jesus would NEVER burn people alive for all eternal ages in flames of eternal torment.

So you are saying there is no punishment for sin other than what might happen to us here on earth and ever that we get to live happily ever after?

 

[TheLearner]

To clarify, the rich man was not saved and Lazarus was saved.

Yes, that is what I was saying. I had Eze 18 or 33 in mind.

 

[TheLearner]

The passage about Lazarus actually reveals his sin. He was at least slothful, lazy, unwilling to work for food. He just begs and offers nothing, not even willing to offer any service. Yet he still made it to comfort. Furthermore, it never says the rich man did wrong to Lazarus or other people. It just seems to condemn him for being wealthy and having good things in life.

This parable is a warning about the dangers of riches. That's clear because lazy people unwilling to work don't receive blessings from God under the Old Covenant. Rich people don't go to torment of fire either or some of the well-known prophets would be in a lot of trouble such as Job and Abraham who himself made it to the place of comfort.

This parable doesn't make sense as literal.

Luke 16:19-31 “There was once a rich man who used to dress in purple and fine linen and lead a life of daily luxury. And there was a poor man called Lazarus who was put down at his gate.

No friend, he was handicapped. The fact that an angel took him to paradise is proof that he was a righteous man. Context does matter.

19-31 “There was once a rich man who used to dress in purple and fine linen and lead a life of daily luxury. And there was a poor man called Lazarus who was put down at his gate. He was covered with sores. He used to long to be fed with the scraps from the rich man’s table. Yes, and the dogs used to come and lick his sores. Well, it happened that the poor man died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom.

 

[TheLearner]

The passage about Lazarus actually reveals his sin. He was at least slothful, lazy, unwilling to work for food. He just begs and offers nothing, not even willing to offer any service. Yet he still made it to comfort. Furthermore, it never says the rich man did wrong to Lazarus or other people. It just seems to condemn him for being wealthy and having good things in life.

This parable is a warning about the dangers of riches. That's clear because lazy people unwilling to work don't receive blessings from God under the Old Covenant. Rich people don't go to torment of fire either or some of the well-known prophets would be in a lot of trouble such as Job and Abraham who himself made it to the place of comfort.

This parable doesn't make sense as literal.

As literal it does make sense. You theological glasses has blinded you, brother.

 

[kenallen]

Morning Ken- Everyone that is born into this world gets to the point hat they must make their own decisions. I think the verse that speaks about,”working out your own salvation,“ is a great view of what lies ahead for each of us.

It would be great to have a teacher come into our lives that has the right motivation when teaching us. I think the family unit should be the primary way we learn, but alas, so many families have been broken.

Read, pray, study, and share what God has done for you. God will help you along any road you travel, including this forum. Don’t hesitate to type, there are some fine, mature Christians in this group.

Late start got a lot of catching up to do.
From what I am reading here it is ok to post my thoughts and ask my questions so you will hear from me again I am sure. Keep your eye and heart on the prize.

 

[Runningman]

Luke 16:19-31 “There was once a rich man who used to dress in purple and fine linen and lead a life of daily luxury. And there was a poor man called Lazarus who was put down at his gate.

No friend, he was handicapped. The fact that an angel took him to paradise is proof that he was a righteous man. Context does matter.

19-31 “There was once a rich man who used to dress in purple and fine linen and lead a life of daily luxury. And there was a poor man called Lazarus who was put down at his gate. He was covered with sores. He used to long to be fed with the scraps from the rich man’s table. Yes, and the dogs used to come and lick his sores. Well, it happened that the poor man died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom.
View attachment 238700

Yes context does matter and you're ignoring the elephant in the room. It doesn't say he was handicapped. You're adding to the scriptures by inferring that. It just says he was laid down there.

 

[Runningman]

As literal it does make sense. You theological glasses has blinded you, brother.

My theology attempts to take the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as literal and it produces inconsistencies and contradiction in scriptures. I'm afraid if you can't see that then you're the one who is blind after all. No offense, but sometimes blind people don't know they are blind until they are shown, brother. God bless.

 

[TheLearner]

Late start got a lot of catching up to do.
From what I am reading here it is ok to post my thoughts and ask my questions so you will hear from me again I am sure. Keep your eye and heart on the prize.

welcome

Our SDA friends believe basically,
The dead are unconesious (where is that spell checker)
The unsaved are burned up in the lake of fire aka hell.

Traditional Historical Christians beleives
The dead in the grave sleep like we do in life Isaiah 14, Luke 16
The unsaved in Hell are eternally punished Matthew 25:46

Many questions have been answered and some posters either missed the answers or pretends they were not answered.

wife is kicking me off, have a great Sabbath.

 

[Runningman]

Luke 16:19-31 “There was once a rich man who used to dress in purple and fine linen and lead a life of daily luxury. And there was a poor man called Lazarus who was put down at his gate.

No friend, he was handicapped. The fact that an angel took him to paradise is proof that he was a righteous man. Context does matter.

19-31 “There was once a rich man who used to dress in purple and fine linen and lead a life of daily luxury. And there was a poor man called Lazarus who was put down at his gate. He was covered with sores. He used to long to be fed with the scraps from the rich man’s table. Yes, and the dogs used to come and lick his sores. Well, it happened that the poor man died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom.
View attachment 238700

He was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom, not because he couldn't walk, but because no one can get there unless they are carried there. Tell me how you intend to cross the great gulf fixed between paradise and comfort without being carried?

 

[TheLearner]

Yes context does matter and you're ignoring the elephant in the room. It doesn't say he was handicapped. You're adding to the scriptures by inferring that. It just says he was laid down there.

The fact that HE WAS PUT DOWN IS PROOF OF HANDICAP. emphesis in caps.