Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[rogerg]

You are quite mistaken. Believing is God's REQUIREMENT.

John 6:29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

The Jews' question: v.28 - Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

I don't think these verses you support your position.

John 6:29, says that it is God's work that someone believes. So, the only work then that will satisfy God, and is that which He requires (v28), is His work alone. This means belief is God's work, not ours. So, since not everyone comes to a true belief, God then obviously doesn't give it to everyone.

For 1 Cor 1:21 - if it is the work of God for someone to believe (as you said above), then the belief of this verse must also be of the work of God, which belief He does not give to everyone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You are quite mistaken. Believing is God's REQUIREMENT.

John 6:29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

The Jews' question: v.28 - Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

I don't think these verses you support your position.

What does that have to do with clear truth?

John 6:29, says that it is God's work that someone believes.

No it doesn't say that. And that's the problem. Calvinists just can't seem to read anything clearly.

The Jews asked Jesus what works does God require for eternal life?

Jesus' answer in v.29 was kinda tongue-in-cheek. He used their terminology in His answer.

iow, God requires believing in Christ for salvation.

So, the only work then that will satisfy God, and is that which He requires (v28), is His work alone. This means belief is God's work, not ours. So, since not everyone comes to a true belief, God then obviously doesn't give it to everyone.

This is a calvinistic twist of Scripture.

For 1 Cor 1:21 - if it is the work of God for someone to believe (as you said above), then the belief of this verse must also be of the work of God, which belief He does not give to everyone.

What a misread of Scripture!!

 

[rogerg]

No it doesn't say that. And that's the problem. Calvinists just can't seem to read anything clearly.

It doesn't say that it is God's work to believe? Really?

Here's what you posted. That is exactly what it says: that it is God's work, not theirs. How do you read it?

ohn 6:29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Here are some other translations that effectively say the same thing

[Jhn 6:29 NIV] 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
No it doesn't say that. And that's the problem. Calvinists just can't seem to read anything clearly.

It doesn't say that it is God's work to believe? Really?

Really. It says that God requires belief for salvation. You should understand "the work of God" means "the work that God requires". Jesus was using language that these Pharisee legalists would understand. They even asked what did God require for eternal life.

Here's what you posted. That is exactly what it says: that it is God's work, not theirs. How do you read it?
FreeGrace2 said:
ohn 6:29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

OK, Jesus was telling them what God REQUIRED.

John 6:28 - 28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

How do you read this verse?

Here are some other translations that effectively say the same thing

[Jhn 6:29 NIV] 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.[/QUOTE]
Jesus' answer was in response to v.28. They were asking Him what works did God REQUIRE for eternal life.

If you ignore v.28, you cannot properly understand v.29.

 

[rogerg]

This is one of the major fallacies of Calvinists, because they simply ignore the fact that sinners must obey the Gospel in order to be saved.

The elect are GIVEN "grace and apostleship" to make them obedient to the faith. The obedience of the Bible is obedience
to the faith, which obedience, is given them

[Rom 1:4-6 KJV]
4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

 

[rogerg]

Really. It says that God requires belief for salvation. You should understand "the work of God" means "the work that God requires". Jesus was using language that these Pharisee legalists would understand. They even asked what did God require for eternal life.

Your statement is mind boggling. Here it is again. If you are unable to perceive the words that are clearly written, it makes no sense
to continue this discussion with you. Below is the verse that YOU posted: that IT IS THE WORK OF GOD TO BELIEVE

ohn 6:29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

 

[kaylagrl]

I guess where we disagree on this particular subject, awelight, is that the verses above do not identify which Israel is to be the kingdom since the Bible describes two Israels: one being of the flesh (earthy); one being of the spirit(heavenly).


Rip,rip, rip, ever get that part out of the Bible that you deny? Nope, see you're still here at it, spewing the same nonsense. You were proven wrong with Scripture already.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The elect are GIVEN "grace and apostleship" to make them obedient to the faith. The obedience of the Bible is obedience
to the faith, which obedience, is given them

[Rom 1:4-6 KJV]
4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

These verses refer to Paul as an apostle. It doesn't refer to every believer as an apostle.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Really. It says that God requires belief for salvation. You should understand "the work of God" means "the work that God requires". Jesus was using language that these Pharisee legalists would understand. They even asked what did God require for eternal life.

Your statement is mind boggling. Here it is again. If you are unable to perceive the words that are clearly written, it makes no sense to continue this discussion with you. Below is the verse that YOU posted: that IT IS THE WORK OF GOD TO BELIEVE

ohn 6:29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

I quoted v.28 and asked you how you understand that verse. Where is your answer?

Why did you blow off v.28, which forms the context for Jesus' reply?

What truly is mind boggling is your refusal to accept clear facts. But I'm not surprised.

 

[rogerg]

I quoted v.28 and asked you how you understand that verse. Where is your answer?

Actually, I did answer your question, but you obviously overlooked it. Here it is again.


[Jhn 6:28 KJV] 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Christ's answer in 6:29 to their question of 6:28 was, in effect, telling them there was no work they could do since belief is exclusively the work of God, and God's alone to accomplish. So, by these verses we can see that the obtaining of belief is a work, and that it is God's work. Furthermore, it being God's work, the faith that He alone gives is the only faith that is able to please Him.

 

[rogerg]

These verses refer to Paul as an apostle. It doesn't refer to every believer as an apostle.

Where do you get that from? Again, you clearly ignore and add to the words of the verses. Do you see the "WE" and "YE" and the "CALLED OF GOD", parts? Those called of God receive grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith, period. Everyone is saved/born again in the same manner - not one way for Paul, another for everyone else. Again, you seem unable to process/accept the words the verses that are clearly before you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually, I did answer your question, but you obviously overlooked it. Here it is again.


[Jhn 6:28 KJV] 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Christ's answer in 6:29 to their question of 6:28 was, in effect, telling them there was no work they could do since belief is exclusively the work of God, and God's alone to accomplish. So, by these verses we can see that the obtaining of belief is a work, and that it is God's work. Furthermore, it being God's work, the faith that He alone gives is the only faith that is able to please Him.

Well, you are just misreading the verse AGAIN.

The Jews wanted to know "what shall we DO". They wanted to know what God required, as the better translations say.

Jesus' answer was to believe. That's what they SHOULD DO.

But your calvinistic eyeballs just can't seem to read clear verses.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
These verses refer to Paul as an apostle. It doesn't refer to every believer as an apostle.

Where do you get that from?

From Paul's own words.

Again, you clearly ignore and add to the words of the verses.

No, you are failing to comprehend simple sentences.

Do you see the "WE" and "YE" and the "CALLED OF GOD", parts? Those called of God receive grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith, period.

If you think you have been called to be an apostle, that is delusional.

Everyone is saved/born again in the same manner - not one way for Paul, another for everyone else. Again, you seem unable to process/accept the words the verses that are clearly before you.

Yes, everyone is saved THROUGH FAITH. Eph 2:8.

But it seems you read that verse as "we are saved by election".

And you have NO verses that say that God unconditionally chooses who will believe. That would make God a puppetmaster and human beings mere puppets. But that is the foundation for calvinism's "doctrine of election".

It is totally unbiblical.

You STILL haven't shared a verse that shows that election is to salvation. So, why do you still believe it?

Why do you believe a statement that the Bible doesn't make?

 

[rogerg]

Well, you are just misreading the verse AGAIN.

The Jews wanted to know "what shall we DO". They wanted to know what God required, as the better translations say.

Jesus' answer was to believe. That's what they SHOULD DO.

But your calvinistic eyeballs just can't seem to read clear verses.

Okay we're done. No more posts to me on this subject.

 

[rogerg]

If you think you have been called to be an apostle, that is delusional.

[Rom 1:5-7 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you see the " :Among whom are ye also"? The "all that be in Rome"; the "beloved of God"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, you are just misreading the verse AGAIN.

The Jews wanted to know "what shall we DO". They wanted to know what God required, as the better translations say.

Jesus' answer was to believe. That's what they SHOULD DO.

But your calvinistic eyeballs just can't seem to read clear verses.

Okay we're done. No more posts to me on this subject.

Amazing stubbornness! You just won't face the truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

[Rom 1:5-7 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you see the " :Among whom are ye also"? The "all that be in Rome"; the "beloved of God"?

OK, since you have already demonstrated a very weak ability to grasp verses, I'll explain what each verse says.

v.5 is Paul's explanation of he and the apostles have received.
v.6 tells the Roman believers that "among whom" being the apostles, THEY are the called of Christ. Paul didn't tell them they were apostles.
v.7 addresses the epistle to Roman believers.

 

[awelight]

awelight said:
By explanation - it saddened me because way to many so called Christians run too John 3:16. Churches are full of easy believism. Anyone who has studied the Bible knows it is not quite that easy. To begin with, true Repentance is required first. If I say I believe on Jesus Christ but never Truly Repented, then my believing is not genuine.

Charles Spurgeon once said: (I paraphrase), I fear that to many have come to believe in Jesus Christ, in the churches today, before they came to truly know what sin is. This would be belief without Repentance.

I never reject a Scripture. Nor do I hide behind a few that seem to give me creditability. I desire the whole council of God. Rom 10:10 is a great verse. My favorite, on the subject of belief is this because it requires this:

Mat_22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

And this takes a replacement heart from our old stony heart. This is accomplished in the New Birth and leads one to true Repentance.

Easy. Matt 11:28-30

There you go - picking and choosing Scriptures again. You say it 's easy and quoted Matthew 11:28-30.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Yet, once again, no attempt to reconcile these statements with other Scriptures also spoken by our Lord. Such as these:

Luke 14:26 If any man cometh unto me, and does not hate his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:27 Whosoever doth not bear his own cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, doth not first sit down and count the cost, whether he have wherewith to complete it?
Luke 14:29 Lest haply, when he hath laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all that behold begin to mock him,
Luke 14:30 saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.


Luke 18:22 And when Jesus heard it, he said unto him, One thing thou lackest yet: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Luke 18:23 But when he heard these things, he became exceeding sorrowful; for he was very rich.
Luke 18:24 And Jesus seeing him said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to enter in through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 11:28-30, are verses dealing with the rest of being IN Jesus Christ. Only in verse 28 do we see the condition outside of Christ. A person labors and is heavily burdened and needs rest. In order to understand the teachings of Scripture, one must be open to the Whole Counsel of God. A person who is in Christ finds rest but a person coming to Christ.... that is hard and potentially, costly. Without combining Scripture with Scripture one will never understand Scripture.

Mat_15:9 But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.

Man can see the Words on a page but without the Holy Spirit, man cannot weave the Tapestry of God.

John_4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers.

 

[awelight]

Has the Lord Jesus made salvation a hard thing to get or easy?

See Post # 3,348 - therein is my response.

 

[fredoheaven]

It sure does if their doing it is a requirement for their salvation. How can it not be?

Umm, you try to make an "if" statement, making a doubt to a true statement. Such belief in Christ will offend no one. Again, those that believed as the Bible says don't make them a co-savior. O that we may hear him and even Paul and of John.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.