Pentecostalism's sketchy origins
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Where does it say in Acts 2 that all will speak in tongues? It does not. If it did, it would contradict what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 12.
Acts says that receiving the Spirit is for everyone that God calls... how do we get it? Look at Acts 2:38...
Yes, there is always the assumption that the person just wasn't somehow good enough, or sincere enough, or .... whatever. That thinking plays right into the pentecostal belief that if a professed believer doesn't speak in tongues, he/she is somehow spiritually lacking.
Pentecostals are completely invested and hung up on the LEAST desirable gift... that, in itself should raise red flags to you...
How do you know I do not have the spiritual gift of wisdom? Or, teaching? Or any of the MORE DESIRABLE gifts?
How in the world can you judge someone else's salvation status? You (pentecostals) scream "FOUL, FOUL" if anyone questions your sincerity, yet you do the same thing, to a greater extent, towards anyone that doesn't speak in tongues.
Honestly, you should all fall on your knees and beg God's forgiveness for falsely judging your brothers and sisters.
Acts says that receiving the Spirit is for everyone that God calls... how do we get it? Look at Acts 2:38...
Yes, there is always the assumption that the person just wasn't somehow good enough, or sincere enough, or .... whatever. That thinking plays right into the pentecostal belief that if a professed believer doesn't speak in tongues, he/she is somehow spiritually lacking.
Pentecostals are completely invested and hung up on the LEAST desirable gift... that, in itself should raise red flags to you...
How do you know I do not have the spiritual gift of wisdom? Or, teaching? Or any of the MORE DESIRABLE gifts?
How in the world can you judge someone else's salvation status? You (pentecostals) scream "FOUL, FOUL" if anyone questions your sincerity, yet you do the same thing, to a greater extent, towards anyone that doesn't speak in tongues.
Honestly, you should all fall on your knees and beg God's forgiveness for falsely judging your brothers and sisters.
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You DO realize I wasn't talking about people's salvation, don't you? I've been only talking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which isn't required for salvation. I wasn't talking about tongues, either.
The baptism of the Spirit isn't the same as receiving the Spirit at salvation. Two totally different things.
I would suggest you hold your temper & rethink what I stated, because I said NOTHING about salvation.
Acts 2:38 is receiving the Spirit at salvation. It is NOT talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The baptism of the Spirit isn't the same as receiving the Spirit at salvation. Two totally different things.
I would suggest you hold your temper & rethink what I stated, because I said NOTHING about salvation.
Acts 2:38 is receiving the Spirit at salvation. It is NOT talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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Because they want to think of themselves as still decent Christians who aren't perfect and like to party or something along those lines. What church do they prefer?
I think they prefer a church where everyone is like them. They don't need to feel any pressure to change. They don't think anyone would even notice that they are hung over on Sunday morning or care if they smelled like stale beer. They know they would not be the only one. And they know that no one will ever mention it except as a joke but not as a sin. What church in your community would they prefer to attend? And if they repented and got real with God again would they want to keep going to that church or would they then prefer a different kind of church?
Is there a church that backsliders go to hide? Do they leave it to go find real Christians when they repent?
I think they prefer a church where everyone is like them. They don't need to feel any pressure to change. They don't think anyone would even notice that they are hung over on Sunday morning or care if they smelled like stale beer. They know they would not be the only one. And they know that no one will ever mention it except as a joke but not as a sin. What church in your community would they prefer to attend? And if they repented and got real with God again would they want to keep going to that church or would they then prefer a different kind of church?
Is there a church that backsliders go to hide? Do they leave it to go find real Christians when they repent?
Support that, scripturally.
Oh, and my temper is resting quietly, as it has been through this whole discussion. Don't presume my moods, please.
I'll give you scriptures that explain there is only one baptism, and it involves receiving the Spirit... which is manifested in different ways.
Acts 2
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
1 Cor 12
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He [l]wills.
13 For [m]by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
Exegesis shows us that the baptism of the Holy Spirt happens when a believer is baptized.
Oh, and my temper is resting quietly, as it has been through this whole discussion. Don't presume my moods, please.
I'll give you scriptures that explain there is only one baptism, and it involves receiving the Spirit... which is manifested in different ways.
Acts 2
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
1 Cor 12
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He [l]wills.
13 For [m]by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
Exegesis shows us that the baptism of the Holy Spirt happens when a believer is baptized.
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So.... drinking beer is a sin now? Scriptures that tell us that? 
It could just as easily be said that the "backsliders" would want to go to a church where all they had to do was fall down, holler gibberish, laugh maniacally, and everyone would assume they were "filled with the Spirit".... that would be pretty good camouflage as well, would it not?
Really guys.... this has gotten just way too silly...
It could just as easily be said that the "backsliders" would want to go to a church where all they had to do was fall down, holler gibberish, laugh maniacally, and everyone would assume they were "filled with the Spirit".... that would be pretty good camouflage as well, would it not?
Really guys.... this has gotten just way too silly...
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When Jesus resurrected from the dead & showed Himself to His disciples, those who believed were saved right then.
But, Jesus commanded his disciples to tarry in the upper room until they received power from on high.
What happen in the upper room was separate from believing in Jesus' resurrection. John the baptist spoke that Jesus would baptize believers with the Holy Spirit & fire... again, not speaking about salvation.
That is proper exegesis.
Besides this, we have the Welsh Revival, Azuza Revival, as well as others where already saved people were receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. The same things happened exactly in all the meetings. Saved people were receiving Power from on high. Many sinners were saved as well.
Cornelius' household was the only place in scripture where they were saved & Baptized at the same time.
But, Jesus commanded his disciples to tarry in the upper room until they received power from on high.
What happen in the upper room was separate from believing in Jesus' resurrection. John the baptist spoke that Jesus would baptize believers with the Holy Spirit & fire... again, not speaking about salvation.
That is proper exegesis.
Besides this, we have the Welsh Revival, Azuza Revival, as well as others where already saved people were receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. The same things happened exactly in all the meetings. Saved people were receiving Power from on high. Many sinners were saved as well.
Cornelius' household was the only place in scripture where they were saved & Baptized at the same time.
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So.... drinking beer is a sin now? Scriptures that tell us that?
It could just as easily be said that the "backsliders" would want to go to a church where all they had to do was fall down, holler gibberish, laugh maniacally, and everyone would assume they were "filled with the Spirit".... that would be pretty good camouflage as well, would it not?
Really guys.... this has gotten just way too silly...
It could just as easily be said that the "backsliders" would want to go to a church where all they had to do was fall down, holler gibberish, laugh maniacally, and everyone would assume they were "filled with the Spirit".... that would be pretty good camouflage as well, would it not?
Really guys.... this has gotten just way too silly...
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Exegesis clearly separates water baptism from Holy Spirit baptism, both in the Gospel and in Acts:
A.) some received the Holy Spirit Baptism immediately after water baptism = Two separate Baptisms
B.) some disciples were already water baptized BEFORE the baptism of the Holy Spirit
C.) some disciples were water baptized, saved but were taught error and had not yet received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
Move on 2,000 Years later and, as foretold by the Holy Spirit, as we have the reverse trend:
Factual occurrence (C.) is the most prevailing situation of the modern churches
Factual occurrence (B.) is the next most prevailing situation of modern churches
Factual occurrence (A.) is the least most occurring situation of modern churches
Brother, i have not suggested nor implied to you or other that 'you must speak in tongues'.
Neither have i questioned anyone's salvation on this matter.
There are some who seek to change scripture or add to it for their desired outcome which is detrimental to fellowship in Christ.
A.) some received the Holy Spirit Baptism immediately after water baptism = Two separate Baptisms
B.) some disciples were already water baptized BEFORE the baptism of the Holy Spirit
C.) some disciples were water baptized, saved but were taught error and had not yet received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
Move on 2,000 Years later and, as foretold by the Holy Spirit, as we have the reverse trend:
Factual occurrence (C.) is the most prevailing situation of the modern churches
Factual occurrence (B.) is the next most prevailing situation of modern churches
Factual occurrence (A.) is the least most occurring situation of modern churches
Brother, i have not suggested nor implied to you or other that 'you must speak in tongues'.
Neither have i questioned anyone's salvation on this matter.
There are some who seek to change scripture or add to it for their desired outcome which is detrimental to fellowship in Christ.
um.... Pentecost?
the Ethiopian eunuch and Philip?
Paul and Silas' jailer and his household?
even Paul... the first thing he did, when he was physically able, was to be baptized, where, if you believe Peter in Acts, he received the Spirt at that time.
Actually, Cornelius' household was the ONE place in scripture where believers received the Spirit BEFORE they were baptized... and that was a special, one-off event to prove to the Jews that Gentiles were accepted by God just like they were.
the Ethiopian eunuch and Philip?
Paul and Silas' jailer and his household?
even Paul... the first thing he did, when he was physically able, was to be baptized, where, if you believe Peter in Acts, he received the Spirt at that time.
Actually, Cornelius' household was the ONE place in scripture where believers received the Spirit BEFORE they were baptized... and that was a special, one-off event to prove to the Jews that Gentiles were accepted by God just like they were.
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So.... drinking beer is a sin now? Scriptures that tell us that?
It could just as easily be said that the "backsliders" would want to go to a church where all they had to do was fall down, holler gibberish, laugh maniacally, and everyone would assume they were "filled with the Spirit".... that would be pretty good camouflage as well, would it not?
Really guys.... this has gotten just way too silly...
It could just as easily be said that the "backsliders" would want to go to a church where all they had to do was fall down, holler gibberish, laugh maniacally, and everyone would assume they were "filled with the Spirit".... that would be pretty good camouflage as well, would it not?
Really guys.... this has gotten just way too silly...
Backsliders do go to church. They prefer the ones that make them feel like they are still saved even if they were to die doing what they are doing. They prefer those churches where everyone is saved regardless of how they are living.
Maybe that is where the "holier than thou" accusation is coming from. They don't feel comfortable in the Charismatic churches because they preach a message about repentance and fleeing from drunkenness and fornication and that there is an eternal hell waiting for those who choose to keep doing it.
So if they dont' want to quit they go somewhere else and say "they think they are holier than thou" Maybe that is the real issue here.
And yet when the backslider repents they often leave the milky compromising churches and look for real Christians that aren't fake like the ones they were hanging with when they were fake. And they end up in Charismatic churches.
This is because on average Charismatic churches have more real holy living Christians and preach a no compromise message.
Like I said, Test out this theory in your area. Go to Charismatic churches and get to know the people. Give it 6 months. Get involved with the people. Then go to a non charismatic church and do the same thing. See if what I said is not true.
I have seen it for 40 years. Without a doubt the Charismatics on average live holier lives than non charismatics. But it is the doctrine that they preach and not because they speak in tongues. That doctrine is a strong holiness message. We believe that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. We believe that a Christian can backslide and go to hell. These differences in our teachings and that of the non charismatics that hold to a Calvin bent will produce a difference in the attitudes of the people in the congregation toward living holy.
It is an obvious difference. One of the reasons that 80% of a Charismatic congregation are for real born again holy living christians is that if they weren't they would prefer a different kind of church. The Charismatic experience is not attractive to the unsaved or the backslider. It is only attractive to those who want to give themselves completely to Christ holding nothing back and who want all that the Spirit did in the lives of the first church for their lives also. This is not something the backslider or the unsaved are interested in. Those who just want to play church on Sunday and live as they please the rest of the time without anyone judging them don't prefer Charismatic churches.
So instead of answering your "You think your holier than thou" false accusation with a cowering and whimpering brow beaten response... nuhn uh.. we don't think that, I am exposing it for what it is. It is a false accusation to deal with the fact that Charismatics have a long history of living holier lives than other churches and instead of trying to find out why, it is turned into an angry response. Like being jealous.
Find out why Charismatics on average live holier lives than the other denominations. Maybe that is what they call good fruit.
Maybe it is time to see why what they have is working better than other "less holy living" denominations?
I felt it necessary to tell you & I did. It's only required that I tell you, not force-feed you. Now I am done.
I was definitely wrong about one thing, & that's you.
You come in here acting like you want some answers, only to argue what you think is right. All pretense, as those kind do.
I was definitely wrong about one thing, & that's you.
You come in here acting like you want some answers, only to argue what you think is right. All pretense, as those kind do.
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Things to ponder from the LORD:
There is only ONE place in ONE Gospel where Jesus said: "you must be born-again." How GREAT of a must, MUST BE
Christianity went the way of man after the Apostles left, as warned and spoken by the Holy Spirit.
The Great News is that the Holy Spirit never left, neither did the Chief Apostle who Remains over us for blessing.
There is only ONE place in ONE Gospel where Jesus said: "you must be born-again." How GREAT of a must, MUST BE
Christianity went the way of man after the Apostles left, as warned and spoken by the Holy Spirit.
The Great News is that the Holy Spirit never left, neither did the Chief Apostle who Remains over us for blessing.
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Did you honestly think that this thread was started as a "please teach me the RIGHT way, the way of the pentecostal" ??
I did not post on this thread to receive "enlightenment" from pentecostals. I posted to discuss differences of opinion.... "why do YOU believe this way? THIS is what I believe... " most of these threads are only educational to those undecided folks who want to hear both sides of an issue.
If you don't want to have a discussion with people who have different understanding of scripture than you, then I suggest that you are in the wrong website. You should find a charismatic, pentecostal website and participate in "rah-rah, yay for our team" discussions, where nobody will challenge you to explain your beliefs with scripture.... and who certainly won't disagree with you.
I find that sad, because your discussion has been welcomed, brother....
I did not post on this thread to receive "enlightenment" from pentecostals. I posted to discuss differences of opinion.... "why do YOU believe this way? THIS is what I believe... " most of these threads are only educational to those undecided folks who want to hear both sides of an issue.
If you don't want to have a discussion with people who have different understanding of scripture than you, then I suggest that you are in the wrong website. You should find a charismatic, pentecostal website and participate in "rah-rah, yay for our team" discussions, where nobody will challenge you to explain your beliefs with scripture.... and who certainly won't disagree with you.
I find that sad, because your discussion has been welcomed, brother....
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Hornetguy-
How can this be tied in with genuine faith, not the faith that Jesus said most would have, not "an outward form denying the power", but the kind His own would have as they do greater works that His?
Ephesians and other letters explain that if we are truly in relationship as He requires we are "no longer our own", but rather we are His, His thoughts become ours as we allow the indwelling Christ to manifest and make Himself known through us.
How do we "quantify" a personal relationship?
blessings
How can this be tied in with genuine faith, not the faith that Jesus said most would have, not "an outward form denying the power", but the kind His own would have as they do greater works that His?
Ephesians and other letters explain that if we are truly in relationship as He requires we are "no longer our own", but rather we are His, His thoughts become ours as we allow the indwelling Christ to manifest and make Himself known through us.
How do we "quantify" a personal relationship?
blessings
I.... dunno how you come to this conclusion that charismatics live holier lives. We've been made holy by the blood of Christ, & yes we are to be holy because the Father is holy.