What does "the coming of the Lord" in the NT refer to?
- Thread starter FreeGrace2
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^ @FreeGrace2,
I'm saying that what is being conveyed in v.23 is a continuation from v.22b's "[so also in Christ] all SHALL BE MADE ALIVE [future] BUT each in the own order / rank [shall be made alive--future]: [1] firstfruit Christ [a unit] and ONLY THEN [only once that happens--EPeita] [2] those [pl] who ARE Christ's in the coming of Him"
["EPeita" is never used to speak of items separated by LONG time-spans... like "EITA" can mean]
[we are "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL who've come to faith in Christ "in this present age [singular]")--that's ONE "unit" (see 2Cor4:14's "future tense" aspect; and see 1Cor12:12)... and the other unit (also in v.23, and also "future-ly" shall be made alive) being "those who are Christ's in the coming of Him"; This is how it can be speaking of "but each IN THE OWN ORDER / RANK" (coz there doesn't remain ONLY ONE at ONE SINGULAR point in time)--These words would be superfluous otherwise... no need to say this...]
V.23's "firstfruit Christ" is not backtracking to speak AGAIN of v.20's PAST event (re: Jesus' resurrection ALONE).
I'm saying that what is being conveyed in v.23 is a continuation from v.22b's "[so also in Christ] all SHALL BE MADE ALIVE [future] BUT each in the own order / rank [shall be made alive--future]: [1] firstfruit Christ [a unit] and ONLY THEN [only once that happens--EPeita] [2] those [pl] who ARE Christ's in the coming of Him"
["EPeita" is never used to speak of items separated by LONG time-spans... like "EITA" can mean]
[we are "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL who've come to faith in Christ "in this present age [singular]")--that's ONE "unit" (see 2Cor4:14's "future tense" aspect; and see 1Cor12:12)... and the other unit (also in v.23, and also "future-ly" shall be made alive) being "those who are Christ's in the coming of Him"; This is how it can be speaking of "but each IN THE OWN ORDER / RANK" (coz there doesn't remain ONLY ONE at ONE SINGULAR point in time)--These words would be superfluous otherwise... no need to say this...]
V.23's "firstfruit Christ" is not backtracking to speak AGAIN of v.20's PAST event (re: Jesus' resurrection ALONE).
Paul wrote,
--"Behold, I SHOW you A MYSTERY" (not something that Daniel and Job and Martha and ALL OT saints already WELL-KNEW! They all well-knew of-->"in the resurrection IN THE LAST DAY" [not a singular 24-hr day kind of "day"... but IN that very lengthy time-period known as "THE LAST DAY" (aka "the THIRD day" of Hos5:14-6:3 and the SEVENTH day of Ex31:13,17 / Heb4:9 "sabbatismos")])
--"THIS corruptible" (i.e. the DEAD IN Christ (members of the Body of Christ)... who need to be bodily "resurrected" ['SHALL BE made alive'])... continuing... "and THIS mortal" (the STILL-LIVING members of the Church which is His body, who are ALSO IN Christ, but who do not require being bodily resurrected coz they won't have DIED before the point in time being spoken of in this text: "in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet" [not the 7th [judgment] Trumpet of that set-of-7, in Rev]--where "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to the precise moment when one day turns into the next: "when the sun is eight-degrees below the horizon, AT SUNDOWN" (WE ['the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'] do not step ONE FOOT INTO the "IN THE NIGHT" portion OF "the day of the Lord [earthly-located time-period--of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME]"... except to RETURN WITH [G4862] HIM at the conclusion of the "NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" (JUDGMENTs) portion, at the time of (what we commonly call) His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion OF "the day of the Lord" earthly-located time-period)]
[note again to the readers: "And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from the man, made he a woman, AND BROUGHT HER UNTO THE MAN" Gen2:22<--This took place on the SIXTH DAY, not "the LAST / 7th day"]
--"Behold, I SHOW you A MYSTERY" (not something that Daniel and Job and Martha and ALL OT saints already WELL-KNEW! They all well-knew of-->"in the resurrection IN THE LAST DAY" [not a singular 24-hr day kind of "day"... but IN that very lengthy time-period known as "THE LAST DAY" (aka "the THIRD day" of Hos5:14-6:3 and the SEVENTH day of Ex31:13,17 / Heb4:9 "sabbatismos")])
--"THIS corruptible" (i.e. the DEAD IN Christ (members of the Body of Christ)... who need to be bodily "resurrected" ['SHALL BE made alive'])... continuing... "and THIS mortal" (the STILL-LIVING members of the Church which is His body, who are ALSO IN Christ, but who do not require being bodily resurrected coz they won't have DIED before the point in time being spoken of in this text: "in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet" [not the 7th [judgment] Trumpet of that set-of-7, in Rev]--where "in the twinkling of an eye" refers to the precise moment when one day turns into the next: "when the sun is eight-degrees below the horizon, AT SUNDOWN" (WE ['the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'] do not step ONE FOOT INTO the "IN THE NIGHT" portion OF "the day of the Lord [earthly-located time-period--of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME]"... except to RETURN WITH [G4862] HIM at the conclusion of the "NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" (JUDGMENTs) portion, at the time of (what we commonly call) His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion OF "the day of the Lord" earthly-located time-period)]
[note again to the readers: "And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from the man, made he a woman, AND BROUGHT HER UNTO THE MAN" Gen2:22<--This took place on the SIXTH DAY, not "the LAST / 7th day"]
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I would like to share comments from friends of mine that are language scholars. Every bible in english print says: ( God will bring with Jesus or Him those who have falen asleep .) My friends tell me they do not know what this part of the sentence really says but yes it could say what is recorded in our english bibles. One of the things it could mean is---( God will { bring up] with Him those who have fallen asleep which to me is speaking of the resurrection. Just sharing some knowledge and not going to debate
In speaking about resurrection, I said:
FreeGrace2 said:
There is only 1. If there were more, where would I read about them?
So? This doesn't speak of multiple resurrections. Only the resurrection in that "very lengthy time-period" or Millennium where the resurrection of all believers occurs at the beginning of that Millennium. Rev 20:1-5
Still not mention of multiple resurrections.
There is only one. Jesus spoke of the resurrection of the saved in the singular. I won't argue with Him.
?????
FreeGrace2 said:
There is only 1. If there were more, where would I read about them?
So? This doesn't speak of multiple resurrections. Only the resurrection in that "very lengthy time-period" or Millennium where the resurrection of all believers occurs at the beginning of that Millennium. Rev 20:1-5
Still not mention of multiple resurrections.
There is only one. Jesus spoke of the resurrection of the saved in the singular. I won't argue with Him.
?????
No need to debate. I agree!! The words "bring up" would refer to the bodies in the ground. I certainly don't have any problem with that.
We know that believers are with Jesus after they die. Paul made that clear in 2 Cor 5:6,8. I do not accept "soul sleep". The word "sleep" is used as a figure of speech or euphemism for a dead body.
We know that believers are with Jesus after they die. Paul made that clear in 2 Cor 5:6,8. I do not accept "soul sleep". The word "sleep" is used as a figure of speech or euphemism for a dead body.
Again...huh? I'm trying to read in spite of all the crazy fonts and junk characters... brackets and such... which obscure your message and render sight-word-vocabulary less useful.
But if you read the passage, after 'then' it says 'then cometh the end.' Christ delivers up the kingdom to God. It doesn't say there is a third resurrection. Only two 'stages' of resurrection are mentioned here, Christ the firstfruits, then they that are Christ's at his coming.
I'm not vouching for your commentary on 'epeita', but I do not see how it is relevant to the idea of a third resurrection. There are only two times where resurrection occurs listed in the verses in question.
1. Can you provide evidence that Paul would have used 'eita' rather than 'epeita' if he meant that.
2. Can you explain how this point is relevant to how many resurrections there are?
Can you explain why this is relevant? Do you know anyone who thinks believers were resurrected before Jesus Christ? Is that the point you are trying to address?
Assuming our readers are all Christians here, we already believe that Jesus already rose from the dead, so why the elaboration on this point? Does this have anything to do with the overall theme of the discussion, or are you just wanting to dig deep on the grammar of the verse?
I think I have difficulty understanding the point of your posts because I expect a connection between what you are discussing and what everyone else is talking about.... thAt and [all the] brackets [and] (fonts) make [your posts] hard to read.
The book of Daniel fortells the resurrection. Christ spoke of the resurrection of the dead while disagreeing with the Saducees, before His own resurrection. Paul saying they that are Christ's will be made alive at His coming does not preclude the idea of Old Testament saints who had faith being raised at the same time.
But if you read the passage, after 'then' it says 'then cometh the end.' Christ delivers up the kingdom to God. It doesn't say there is a third resurrection. Only two 'stages' of resurrection are mentioned here, Christ the firstfruits, then they that are Christ's at his coming.
I'm not vouching for your commentary on 'epeita', but I do not see how it is relevant to the idea of a third resurrection. There are only two times where resurrection occurs listed in the verses in question.
1. Can you provide evidence that Paul would have used 'eita' rather than 'epeita' if he meant that.
2. Can you explain how this point is relevant to how many resurrections there are?
Can you explain why this is relevant? Do you know anyone who thinks believers were resurrected before Jesus Christ? Is that the point you are trying to address?
Assuming our readers are all Christians here, we already believe that Jesus already rose from the dead, so why the elaboration on this point? Does this have anything to do with the overall theme of the discussion, or are you just wanting to dig deep on the grammar of the verse?
I think I have difficulty understanding the point of your posts because I expect a connection between what you are discussing and what everyone else is talking about.... thAt and [all the] brackets [and] (fonts) make [your posts] hard to read.
The book of Daniel fortells the resurrection. Christ spoke of the resurrection of the dead while disagreeing with the Saducees, before His own resurrection. Paul saying they that are Christ's will be made alive at His coming does not preclude the idea of Old Testament saints who had faith being raised at the same time.
My view is close to yours.
At His coming, the dead in Christ (resurrected one’s) are raised and those who are alive and remain (raptured ones) are caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
- that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep
The resurrection and rapture take place at His coming.
Do we agree on this?
JPT
Yes, the dead in Christ refers to those who have died “in Christ”; when they died, they were “in Christ”, and will return with the Lord to earth at the end of the age, on the last day, to receive their glorified bodies, along with those who are alive and remain alive at His coming.
- even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-15
- that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
again, this view from heaven —
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Revelation 19:11-14
- And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
The saints, the dead in Christ who are in heaven with the Lord, who have been clothed in fine linen white and clean, return with Jesus Christ to earth as one conquering army to destroy the wicked and reign with Him on earth for a thousand years.
JPT
The rapture is not just about/for those who are alive and remain - after the dead are raised, both groups are glorified and "caught up"/raptured (into the air) together.
Why do some people think that the rapture only applies to those who are alive and remain?
All are "caught up" together into the air.
Why do some people think that the rapture only applies to those who are alive and remain?
All are "caught up" together into the air.
