Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[kleronomos]

I don't understand both these phrases...

"OSASed CALLS INTO QUESTION all WORKS and their END intent"

" there can only be one reason for THAT and that is ALL THE 'IFS' that OSASed can't abide with "

I have no clue what is being said.

Works come into question AS TO MOTIVE under OSAS an example of that being 'can't work to keep your salvation', whereas as it is written, as GOD WROTE it, they NEVER DO.


For the 'doctrine' of OSAS to be true, there can be no VALID ifs. There can be no personal requirements. BUT there are IFS and there are personal requirements and THAT is NEVER a problem when you learn it Gods way and ALWAYS a problem when you learn mans.

So since the IF'S negate the OSASed, it brings in the never saved AGAIN, precept on precept and these things never come up.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is some scripture.

Matthew 6:15
But if you do not forgive other people, then your Father will not forgive your offenses.

Is it possible to remain a Christian and not forgive others?

It isn't even possible for any Christian to NOT be a Christian. Your question is rather bogus.

Once a Christian, always a Christian. Whether one acts like it or not.

The verse shows that believers who don't obey God's commands are out of fellowship and they are not being cleansed of their sins, according to 1 John 1:9.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Read the following paragraph; it is a long one and I am sorry about that.

Matthew 25:1-13

Is it possible to exclude the obvious and cling to once saved always saved, regardless of the lifestyle?

It is apparent that you believe that one is saved according to their lifestyle. That is not found in Scripture.

There is much about lifestyle in Scripture, but NONE of it is about how to get saved.

If it were, there would be a lot of verses written differently than they were.

Consider Paul's answer to the jailer's question:

Acts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Apparently you don't agree with what Paul said to the jailer. I do.

Believe - receive eternal life - never perish. That is biblical.

Your theology does not save. Lifestyle has NO PLACE in getting saved.

Do you believe that Jesus died and paid for all sins for all people?

If you do, then lifestyle CANNOT be an issue in salvation.

In fact, consider this verse:

2 Cor 5:19 - that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Given your theology, you probably think that people will go to the lake of fire because of their sins.

The Bible says differently. They will be cast into the lake of fire because they didn't receive the gift of eternal life. Rev 20:15

 

[crossnote]

Works come into question AS TO MOTIVE under OSAS an example of that being 'can't work to keep your salvation', whereas as it is written, as GOD WROTE it, they NEVER DO.


For the 'doctrine' of OSAS to be true, there can be no VALID ifs. There can be no personal requirements. BUT there are IFS and there are personal requirements and THAT is NEVER a problem when you learn it Gods way and ALWAYS a problem when you learn mans.

So since the IF'S negate the OSASed, it brings in the never saved AGAIN, precept on precept and these things never come up.

I hold to OSAS, but the only works that comes up is His work (not ours). To that there are no IFS, ANDS or BUTS.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Why are you changing the subject? You ignored my comments above. Why? Your view is about lifestyle for salvation. I've given you verses that refute your claim.

Acts 16:31 is not the whole picture, it does tell you that "Christ's the solid rock I stand", but not "all other grounds are sinking sand", which brings forth the second aspect - many false prophets are rising IN HIS NAME. Without wisdom and discernment, even the elect are in danger of being deceived. That doesn't necessarily mean some lunatics with a savior complex claiming themselves as Jesus, but there can be unbiblical versions of Jesus coming from the pulpit and the airwave.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Acts 16:31 is not the whole picture

Then either Paul forgot something, or he flat out didn't know enough. Your answer is a cop-out. He told the jailer exactly what he MUST DO to be saved. But YOU want to add your own works to the deal. But there is no deal.

Eph 2:8,9 says we are saved by grace THROUGH faith, not of works. Did Paul have dementia then too?

it does tell you that "Christ's the solid rock I stand", but not "all other grounds are sinking sand",

Don't bother this mix and match theology. That song isn't the Bible. I stick with the Bible.

- many false prophets are rising IN HIS NAME.

What are you talking about. If they are false prophets, they are lying when they say "in His name".

Without wisdom and discernment, even the elect are in danger of being deceived.

Having had the opportunity to observe a good swath of evangelicalism over the past 2 decades by being on various Christian forums, it is clearly obvious that a whole lot of believers have been deceived.

That doesn't necessarily mean some lunatics with a savior complex claiming themselves as Jesus, but there can be unbiblical versions of Jesus coming from the pulpit and the airwave.

Absolutely.

 

[Inquisitor]

It isn't even possible for any Christian to NOT be a Christian. Your question is rather bogus.

Once a Christian, always a Christian. Whether one acts like it or not.

The verse shows that believers who don't obey God's commands are out of fellowship and they are not being cleansed of their sins, according to 1 John 1:9.

Can you explain more fully what you stated.

The verse (1 John 1:9) you quoted, causes an issue.

If we are saved by grace through faith, why would we need to confess our sins in fellowship?

 

[Nehemiah6]

If we are saved by grace through faith, why would we need to confess our sins in fellowship?

Sinning destroys fellowship with God. This is clear from Genesis 3. Therefore sins must be confessed and repented of (See 1 John chapter 1)..

 

[Inquisitor]

It is apparent that you believe that one is saved according to their lifestyle. That is not found in Scripture.

There is much about lifestyle in Scripture, but NONE of it is about how to get saved.

If it were, there would be a lot of verses written differently than they were.

Consider Paul's answer to the jailer's question:

Acts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Apparently you don't agree with what Paul said to the jailer. I do.

Believe - receive eternal life - never perish. That is biblical.

Your theology does not save. Lifestyle has NO PLACE in getting saved.

Do you believe that Jesus died and paid for all sins for all people?

If you do, then lifestyle CANNOT be an issue in salvation.

In fact, consider this verse:

2 Cor 5:19 - that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Given your theology, you probably think that people will go to the lake of fire because of their sins.

The Bible says differently. They will be cast into the lake of fire because they didn't receive the gift of eternal life. Rev 20:15

You may have missed an important in this debate.

We both agree that mankind can only be saved by grace through faith.

One must believe in Jesus to be saved.

So what ensures that you will always believe in Jesus, without falling into unbelief?

Given that you cannot know God unless the Holy Spirit has first opened your eyes.

It appears from the N.T that we live our life in such a way, that ensures we do not fail.

I have known many people who have fallen away from the faith.

The question is why do they fall into unbelief?

 

[Inquisitor]

Sinning destroys fellowship with God. This is clear from Genesis 3. Therefore sins must be confessed and repented of (See 1 John chapter 1)..

Good reply.

Sin muddies the water that we drink from, hence, sinning could, in fact, eventually promote unbelief.

Better still, living a life of love, results in blessing and promotes a stronger belief in Jesus. Which means your salvation becomes much more assured. This is the reason why, the apostles placed so much emphasis on that fervent love of the brethren.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Just wanted to add one verse from John's Gospel to your list, (hopefully not assuming too much?):

John 6:29
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Personally, I think that a "heart-felt belief" in our Lord Jesus will have us cooperate with the Holy Spirit into other good works... but that 1 work is sufficient to Salvation.

Does this "belief" you speak of include believing what Jesus said about how the "many" saints of Matthew 24:12-13 KJV will wind up lost in contrast to "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved"?

BTW, we know those "many" are saints because it's "agape" which grows cold in them, and according to 1 John 5:3 KJV, agape is demonstrated by keeping God's commandments yet the wicked can't keep God's commandments even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV).

 

[Ted01]

Does this "belief" you speak of include believing what Jesus said about how the "many" saints of Matthew 24:12-13 KJV will wind up lost in contrast to "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved"?

BTW, we know those "many" are saints because it's "agape" which grows cold in them, and according to 1 John 5:3 KJV, agape is demonstrated by keeping God's commandments yet the wicked can't keep God's commandments even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV).

And what exactly are God's Commandments for us in the age of Grace? Could you list them for me so that I can add to the finished work of Jesus, and be even more righteous?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Then either Paul forgot something, or he flat out didn't know enough. Your answer is a cop-out. He told the jailer exactly what he MUST DO to be saved. But YOU want to add your own works to the deal. But there is no deal.

Paul didn't, you forgot that warning about false prophets in the Olivet Discourse. It's a unique end times phenomenon that is happening in OUR times, but not in the first century when Paul was preaching that to the jailer. There was no Mormon Jesus, no Islamic Jesus, no New Age Jesus, no socialist Jesus, in fact His name was censored by the high priests, but now you've got all these fake versions, and such deception could be hidden between the lines of beautifully crafted Christianese language. There're new challenges for us, the end time generation to see the truth from the lies in this post-truth era.

So the bottom line is, yes, believe in Jesus Christ and you'll be saved, all I did was elaborate that a little bit and deep digger into the statement - in which Christ? And saved from what? You've admitted that lots of folks are deceived, and also, not everyone is desperately seeking and pleading for salvation, we've got many Laodiceans who're perfectly comfortable with the status quo, they're spiritually blind to see that they're all running in a hell-bound race. It's not that simple as you said. I didn't add any work on that, but as I said, you still need discernment to know what you really believe, and desire to be saved.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Jesus commented on celibacy.

Matthew 19:12
For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by people; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who is able to accept this, let him accept it.

Celibacy is a valid choice for any serving soldier.

That part of your post was valid.

Glad we agree on this, Inquisitor.

Your interpretation below is also invalid.

"A great sign appeared in heaven: a Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head." (Rev 12:1)

The woman is the church and that bride is radiant with the righteousness of the Christ. The apostles are the crown on the brides head and shine like stars.

Disagree. Verse 5 shows the Woman is the Mother of Christ, not the Bride of Christ.

"5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne."

This is clearly Christ, and the Woman has given birth to Him. Christ is called her Child, and as in Psa 2:9, rules the nations with an iron sceptre. Did the Church give birth to Jesus? The Church is His Bride, not His Mother.

Rev 12:17 also goes together with Gen 3:15:

"17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. "

Gen 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Anyway, back on topic, here is another verse about rewards in Heaven for good works done with faith in Christ.

"Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving." (Col 3:23-24)

God Bless.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
It isn't even possible for any Christian to NOT be a Christian. Your question is rather bogus.

Once a Christian, always a Christian. Whether one acts like it or not.

The verse shows that believers who don't obey God's commands are out of fellowship and they are not being cleansed of their sins, according to 1 John 1:9.

Can you explain more fully what you stated.

The verse (1 John 1:9) you quoted, causes an issue.

If we are saved by grace through faith, why would we need to confess our sins in fellowship?

I see what you mean. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

When a person is saved, that is a permanent RELATIONSHIP with God through His Son Jesus. The Bible describes this RELATIONSHIP in 2 ways that humans can easily relate to.

Parent-child. God is our Father, and we are His children. No argument.

The human parent-child relationship is permanent. Cannot be broken. Likewise the spiritual relationship with God.

Or, marriage. That, in God's economy, is a PERMANENT relationship. Or should be. It was from the beginning.

Jesus Christ is the Groom, and we are His Bride.

Now, in both of these, the relationship is permanent. However, "fellowship" refers to the condition or state of that permanent relationship.

so, in the parent-child relationship, is it always butterflies and roses? Or is there conflict, etc at times, or even most of the time?

In marriage, it is always a bed of roses, or are there conflicts, etc?

So, fellowship refers to the condition or state of the relationship. Unfortunately, most people use the word "relationship" when they actually mean fellowship.

In 1 John 1, John uses "fellowship" 4 times in 3 verses. The whole point of the chapter. So v.9 is the MEANS to being IN fellowship with the Lord.

A believer is OUT OF fellowship WHEN they either grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit. The ONLY WAY to restore fellowship with the Lord is through 1 John 1:9 and confession of sins. That's how the believer is cleansed and restored to fellowship.

Remember that all sin OFFENDS God. Isa 64:6 says that "all our righteousnesses" which refers to our BEST works of the flesh stink to Him.

The only works that are a fragrance to God are works done in the power of the Spirit. This REQUIRES the FILLING of the Spirit, per Eph 5:18.

For most believers, it seems, this is all new, or even foreign to them. Because most pastors have no idea what this is all about.

In Jesus' day, foot washing was REQUIRED because everyone walked on the same dirt paths as the animals, and animals didn't wear diapers. So people's feet would become very stinky and offend everyone in the building or home they entered. Hence, foot washing.

In the upper room, Jesus went around and washed all the disciples' feet as an act of humility and service to one another.

When He got to ol' Pete, he refused and said He would "never wash my feet", thinking it was humiliation to do so. Jesus' response led Pete to say, then don't stop at my feet but my head and hands as well. iow, give me another bath.

That is when Jesus clarified the metaphor about foot washing and told Pete that he any the other 10 were "already saved (clean) and didn't need a bath". He left out Judas, of course.

So the point: believers walk in the world every day. As such, they are bound to get their feet "dirty" (sin). So they need their "feet" washed to remove the offending odor. That's what confession of sin does for the believer. Restores fellowship, just as removal of feces from the feet removes the offending odor.

Kinda long, but I hope I've been more clear.

 

[kleronomos]

I hold to OSAS, but the only works that comes up is His work (not ours). To that there are no IFS, ANDS or BUTS.

'the only works that comes up is His'? There we have it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You may have missed an important in this debate.
We both agree that mankind can only be saved by grace through faith.
One must believe in Jesus to be saved.
So what ensures that you will always believe in Jesus, without falling into unbelief?

Great question. I am NOT ensured by my own faith. Certainly it could fail, depending upon circumstances.

If my faith is what is holding me, then I'm not being held.

I AM held in the hand of God. That's where my assurance is, period. Jesus said those given eternal life shall never perish. That is where my assurance is.

Given that you cannot know God unless the Holy Spirit has first opened your eyes.

He does that to everyone who hears the gospel. Some respond and some reject.

It appears from the N.T that we live our life in such a way, that ensures we do not fail.

The key word here is IF. iow, "if we live our life in such a way". But there is no guarantee in the Bible of staying in the faith.

The guarantee is in whose hand we are held by.

I have known many people who have fallen away from the faith.

I know some as well.

The question is why do they fall into unbelief?

Jesus told us in the parable of the sower. Soils #2 and 3 fell away due to various circumstances.

No one is immune to circumstances. That's the point. But our reaction to circumstances doesn't determine our eternal destiny.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul didn't, you forgot that warning about false prophets in the Olivet Discourse.

Why do you think I forgot the warning about false prophets??

It's a unique end times phenomenon that is happening in OUR times, but not in the first century when Paul was preaching that to the jailer.

Yes, it WAS an occurrence in the first century. Peter wrote about it.

There was no Mormon Jesus, no Islamic Jesus, no New Age Jesus, no socialist Jesus, in fact His name was censored by the high priests, but now you've got all these fake versions, and such deception could be hidden between the lines of beautifully crafted Christianese language.

That precisely WHY every believer needs to fully understand God's Word, and therefore be prepared with truth.

There're new challenges for us, the end time generation to see the truth from the lies in this post-truth era.

Satan has been deceiving the world since Eve. There's nothing new here.

So the bottom line is, yes, believe in Jesus Christ and you'll be saved, all I did was elaborate that a little bit and deep digger into the statement - in which Christ? And saved from what?

The revealed Christ in the Word of God. The One who is God's very Son, the Messiah. That one.

You've admitted that lots of folks are deceived, and also, not everyone is desperately seeking and pleading for salvation, we've got many Laodiceans who're perfectly comfortable with the status quo, they're spiritually blind to see that they're all running in a hell-bound race. It's not that simple as you said. I didn't add any work on that, but as I said, you still need discernment to know what you really believe, and desire to be saved.

Those who earnestly seek, will find. The Bible says so.

 

[crossnote]

'the only works that comes up is His'? There we have it.

What I meant was, what works of ours affect our justification (blameless/declared righteous) before God, unless you consider faith a 'work' rather than a gift?

(Rom 5:1) Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[Phoneman-777]

And what exactly are God's Commandments for us in the age of Grace? Could you list them for me so that I can add to the finished work of Jesus, and be even more righteous?

Dispensationalism is bulldookey because Psalms 111:7-8 KJV plainly tells the Christian that the commandments God wrote with His own hands "stand fast forever and ever" and is why it will ALWAYS be wrong to worship other Gods before God, steal, lie, commit adultery, etc.

If you disagree, tell me which of the Ten Commandments are we now free to disobey?