Theology—beneficial or source of endless debating?
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Brother Jocund,
Thank you for this scripture passage as it really shows the clear separation of ALL the 'nations', including the genetic descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as ONE continuous group of Creation called Man = made in the image of God.
This ENTIRE Group of Man was made with ONE BLOOD = Acts 17:24-27
God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
i cannot stress how exponentionaly irrefutably and foundational this Scripture is to the Complete Gospel that is in Messiah Yeshua for the Jew and the Gentile = ONE Gospel BLOOD Sacrifice for ONE Group called MAN made of ONE Blood(Mankind = Male/Female/Nations).
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—" Romans ch5
ETERNAL Kingdom Emphasis for ENTRY = "He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Gospel = John ch1
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some Bible colleges dont just teach theology, they also have courses on APPLIED theology
Not sure as never been to Bible College (Ive been to Bible primary school) but I gather that is more hands on than simply lectures over a semester.
Secular colleges also teach theology but thats for people who dont believe yet still want to study God, to them God is unknown. So they will look at all aspects of divinity not just in the Bible. I dont think they discount the Bible just its one of many sources to find out about God.
For me if you want to know the truth you need to encounter God through Jesus. You dont necessarily need to do this by studying, However studying the Bible is actually something God approves of, as it brings us closer to Him. Because Jesus is the Word.
Not sure as never been to Bible College (Ive been to Bible primary school) but I gather that is more hands on than simply lectures over a semester.
Secular colleges also teach theology but thats for people who dont believe yet still want to study God, to them God is unknown. So they will look at all aspects of divinity not just in the Bible. I dont think they discount the Bible just its one of many sources to find out about God.
For me if you want to know the truth you need to encounter God through Jesus. You dont necessarily need to do this by studying, However studying the Bible is actually something God approves of, as it brings us closer to Him. Because Jesus is the Word.
I have been providing it to you. And so I've struggled mightily to explain how what I'm seeing is answered by those passages. Once again...
Matt 21.43 Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
Rom 9.7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”
You say you understand. And then you ask the same question over and over again. I do think you fail to understand!
Matt 21.43 Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
Rom 9.7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”
You say you understand. And then you ask the same question over and over again. I do think you fail to understand!
Please review carefully Post #182
PEACE
A lot of people havent read the Bible or think its too hard
Or they dont have access to one
Or even more, they cannot read or find a Bible in their own language
The Greeks were able to find God once the Old Testament was translated into Greek and they sought God. The New Testament was written in Greek. Before that they just speculated about the unknown God hence theology.
Greek was main language of the time...then it changed to Latin in western Europe, then English became prominent with the british empire which reached across the world
However there are just so many lanaguages that the Bible needs to be translated into each one. Before people can fully grasp what God has said.
Or they dont have access to one
Or even more, they cannot read or find a Bible in their own language
The Greeks were able to find God once the Old Testament was translated into Greek and they sought God. The New Testament was written in Greek. Before that they just speculated about the unknown God hence theology.
Greek was main language of the time...then it changed to Latin in western Europe, then English became prominent with the british empire which reached across the world
However there are just so many lanaguages that the Bible needs to be translated into each one. Before people can fully grasp what God has said.
AGREE
i was addressing the modern intellectual attempt that believes God can be known though intellectual awareness and study.
That did not work well for some very well educated/intellectual people who were the closest thing to God = the Jews.
As a Jew, you could not be any closer to God then in the time leading right up to the "Word was made Flesh" = YESHUA HaMoshicah.
And what did the LORD say to His People of the bloodline of Abraham = John 5:39
"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me."
BUT
"you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."
Nothing has changed....there is only One Way = John 6:44 = "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;"
Does intellect play a part in reading/studying the Scripture = absolutely.
But it cannot reveal the Truth of God to a person unless the Spirit of God is there for them = SEE below
"Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."
John 6:43-45
i was addressing the modern intellectual attempt that believes God can be known though intellectual awareness and study.
That did not work well for some very well educated/intellectual people who were the closest thing to God = the Jews.
As a Jew, you could not be any closer to God then in the time leading right up to the "Word was made Flesh" = YESHUA HaMoshicah.
And what did the LORD say to His People of the bloodline of Abraham = John 5:39
"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me."
BUT
"you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."
Nothing has changed....there is only One Way = John 6:44 = "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;"
Does intellect play a part in reading/studying the Scripture = absolutely.
But it cannot reveal the Truth of God to a person unless the Spirit of God is there for them = SEE below
"Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."
John 6:43-45
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Sorry, this is a direct quote from this page: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+17&version=NKJV
It's from the New King James Version...
Gen 17.7 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.
Apparently, the New King James Versions sees no conflict between the old KJV "seed" and their revised version "descendants." The "seed," singular, is a composite singular word, indicating a plural entity, such as a corporate body of believers or a corporate body of heirs.
Nations are built from a common set of descendants who certainly include those who enter into the nation from without. The product of intermarriage is a distinct nation. In the case of Israel, that nation has already been established and need not require there all be biological heirs of Abraham. The nation was built in ancient times, and its people preserved through the Jews. Only Jews may start this nation again. But non-Jews may certainly become Israeli citizens.
There are natural and spiritual descendants, meaning both Israel and a multitude of nations. But those nations, to belong to Abraham, must have Christian constitutions. There must be a genuine spiritual people among them, determining the law for the land.
The whole reason I believe in natural nations is precisely because they've been fading away. The fact they have existed at all indicates it was God's desire to have them, both Israel under the Law and Christian nations later, after Christ. God wishes to have godly nations devoted to the faith of Abraham. They are all descendants of Abraham through Christ, his "seed," singular. But that "seed" also contains a composite singularity. Christ contains both the natural descendants of Abraham, which is Israel, and the many nations who will convert to faith and adopt a Christian constitution.
There is some confusion between the idea of natural nations and the sense of being a "spiritual nation."
1) Israel is the natural descendants of Abraham. But Israel is also intended to be "spiritual," ie a nation practicing the faith and obedience of Abraham.
2) Christian nations are not the natural descendants of Abraham. They are, however, spiritual descendants of Abraham through Christ.
3) Israel and Christian nations are all spiritual descendants of Abraham through faith in Christ. They are all "called" to be nations of faith, when they appear as such. Not all nations, however, appear as such. Some have remained pagan nations.
On the other hand, those nations called to be nations of faith are not always "chosen." That is, they sometimes fail and are temporarily rejected when those who fail to have faith and fail to obey lead the nation astray.
I do have some confusion over the "called" and "chosen" ideas in Scriptures. But I realize that not everybody in a Christian nation is God's elect. The nation itself is called to be a nation of faith, but not everybody has faith.
It's from the New King James Version...
Gen 17.7 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.
Apparently, the New King James Versions sees no conflict between the old KJV "seed" and their revised version "descendants." The "seed," singular, is a composite singular word, indicating a plural entity, such as a corporate body of believers or a corporate body of heirs.
Nations are built from a common set of descendants who certainly include those who enter into the nation from without. The product of intermarriage is a distinct nation. In the case of Israel, that nation has already been established and need not require there all be biological heirs of Abraham. The nation was built in ancient times, and its people preserved through the Jews. Only Jews may start this nation again. But non-Jews may certainly become Israeli citizens.
There are natural and spiritual descendants, meaning both Israel and a multitude of nations. But those nations, to belong to Abraham, must have Christian constitutions. There must be a genuine spiritual people among them, determining the law for the land.
The whole reason I believe in natural nations is precisely because they've been fading away. The fact they have existed at all indicates it was God's desire to have them, both Israel under the Law and Christian nations later, after Christ. God wishes to have godly nations devoted to the faith of Abraham. They are all descendants of Abraham through Christ, his "seed," singular. But that "seed" also contains a composite singularity. Christ contains both the natural descendants of Abraham, which is Israel, and the many nations who will convert to faith and adopt a Christian constitution.
There is some confusion between the idea of natural nations and the sense of being a "spiritual nation."
1) Israel is the natural descendants of Abraham. But Israel is also intended to be "spiritual," ie a nation practicing the faith and obedience of Abraham.
2) Christian nations are not the natural descendants of Abraham. They are, however, spiritual descendants of Abraham through Christ.
3) Israel and Christian nations are all spiritual descendants of Abraham through faith in Christ. They are all "called" to be nations of faith, when they appear as such. Not all nations, however, appear as such. Some have remained pagan nations.
On the other hand, those nations called to be nations of faith are not always "chosen." That is, they sometimes fail and are temporarily rejected when those who fail to have faith and fail to obey lead the nation astray.
I do have some confusion over the "called" and "chosen" ideas in Scriptures. But I realize that not everybody in a Christian nation is God's elect. The nation itself is called to be a nation of faith, but not everybody has faith.
You said: "Israel and Christian nations are all spiritual descendants of Abraham through faith in Christ."
What you said is not Truth according to the WORD.
Now, if you say this = Jews and Gentiles are One Spiritual Nation = the Israel of God thru Yeshua the Messiah = TRUTH
AGAIN - If you say that God is both willing and active in saving people from all nations as HE calls them unto His Son = TRUTH
You have not read Post #182 which is PURE GOSPEL TRUTH for ALL Nations including the Jews of the flesh.
READ Post #182........AND..........see if you can find any error whatsoever.
What you said is not Truth according to the WORD.
Now, if you say this = Jews and Gentiles are One Spiritual Nation = the Israel of God thru Yeshua the Messiah = TRUTH
AGAIN - If you say that God is both willing and active in saving people from all nations as HE calls them unto His Son = TRUTH
You have not read Post #182 which is PURE GOSPEL TRUTH for ALL Nations including the Jews of the flesh.
READ Post #182........AND..........see if you can find any error whatsoever.
i would add only this:
Genesis 17 is where He tells Abraham he will be the father of many nations - yet all of one singular seed
likewise there is one singular gospel, to the Jew first, and then also to the Gentile ((Romans 1:16))
Israel is never utterly forsaken. but the promise of salvation through faith has always been to all who believe. through the Jew, certainly, but through faith, through the Jew, to all who believe, of every tongue and nation. Jonah to Assyria, e.g. -- and even Abram was not an Israelite. Israel begins with Jacob - who was also saved by grace through faith, exactly as Ruth the Moabitess, ancestor of Jesus, was saved
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.
He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ.
(Galatians 3:16)
that is key Genesis 17 is where He tells Abraham he will be the father of many nations - yet all of one singular seed
likewise there is one singular gospel, to the Jew first, and then also to the Gentile ((Romans 1:16))
Israel is never utterly forsaken. but the promise of salvation through faith has always been to all who believe. through the Jew, certainly, but through faith, through the Jew, to all who believe, of every tongue and nation. Jonah to Assyria, e.g. -- and even Abram was not an Israelite. Israel begins with Jacob - who was also saved by grace through faith, exactly as Ruth the Moabitess, ancestor of Jesus, was saved
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i don't think the idea of a nation can be separated from the identity of its citizenry.
Putin is Putin, but Russia is Russia, not Putin
just like Trump was Trump, but America is America.
only difference being America is not yet autocratic.
let him be re-elected, and perhaps we will also hence become a dictatorship, as he wishes.
but even so, the people of America will not be accurately represented by Czar Trump any more than the people of Russia are truly represented by Czar Putin. in that case, a very loud and heavily armed minority will exercise rule over the majority. that's their goal.
political glory and power, articularly when extorted. doesn't equate with the will of the people writ large, though. not all israel is Israel.
Putin is Putin, but Russia is Russia, not Putin
just like Trump was Trump, but America is America.
only difference being America is not yet autocratic.
let him be re-elected, and perhaps we will also hence become a dictatorship, as he wishes.
but even so, the people of America will not be accurately represented by Czar Trump any more than the people of Russia are truly represented by Czar Putin. in that case, a very loud and heavily armed minority will exercise rule over the majority. that's their goal.
political glory and power, articularly when extorted. doesn't equate with the will of the people writ large, though. not all israel is Israel.
i would add only this:
Genesis 17 is where He tells Abraham he will be the father of many nations - yet all of one singular seed
likewise there is one singular gospel, to the Jew first, and then also to the Gentile ((Romans 1:16))
Israel is never utterly forsaken. but the promise of salvation through faith has always been to all who believe. through the Jew, certainly, but through faith, through the Jew, to all who believe, of every tongue and nation. Jonah to Assyria, e.g. -- and even Abram was not an Israelite. Israel begins with Jacob - who was also saved by grace through faith, exactly as Ruth the Moabitess, ancestor of Jesus, was saved
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.
He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ.
(Galatians 3:16)
that is key Genesis 17 is where He tells Abraham he will be the father of many nations - yet all of one singular seed
likewise there is one singular gospel, to the Jew first, and then also to the Gentile ((Romans 1:16))
Israel is never utterly forsaken. but the promise of salvation through faith has always been to all who believe. through the Jew, certainly, but through faith, through the Jew, to all who believe, of every tongue and nation. Jonah to Assyria, e.g. -- and even Abram was not an Israelite. Israel begins with Jacob - who was also saved by grace through faith, exactly as Ruth the Moabitess, ancestor of Jesus, was saved
What that indicates, to Paul, is that Christ was expressed, corporately, as the singular descendant of Abraham who would give legitimacy to both the natural descendants of Abraham and those in other nations who share in their inheritance.
The natural descendants in the nation Israel obtained their legitimacy through the coming of Christ. And other nations were promised they could share in the same inheritance as separate nations through faith in the same Christ.
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I realize that a country is not just its leader. But my point was that God promised Abraham *nations of faith.* That doesn't mean every citizen of a Christian country has to have genuine faith or practice true Christianity. What is required to fulfil this promise is to have a nation with a Christian constitution with a significant number of true, practicing Christians identifying it as such.
We had the mantle of theocracy passed from Israel in the OT to Roman society in the NT. This is a reality, despite the fact Rome was divided, corrupt, and flawed, and in fact fell.
However, the reality is that Roman society became European society, or European Civilization, which has largely been Christian in history. It has evolved into many Christian nations, just as God promised to Abraham.
I happen to believe God's promise encompasses the Millennial Kingdom, in which Israel and these Christian nations will be restored. The fulfillment, however, does not require that every citizen of a Christian state be a genuine Christian or practice true Christianity. Again, it only requires the constitution and a significant number of true, practicing Christians.
I believe God wants to save not just the individual, but also the society. He is the God of the Kingdom, and not God of the island, or God or the monastery or God of the lone prophet in the wilderness. He wants the prophet to turn the people back to God to live in just and compassionate societies where He can dwell in His people, giving them life, love, and the hope of eternity.
But I'm a realist as well as a Premillennialist. I believe that nations in the present age, including Christian nations, always fall. Sin infects a society, spreads, and then the wicked take over and dominate, suppressing the righteous. Christ will come back to remedy this.
We had the mantle of theocracy passed from Israel in the OT to Roman society in the NT. This is a reality, despite the fact Rome was divided, corrupt, and flawed, and in fact fell.
However, the reality is that Roman society became European society, or European Civilization, which has largely been Christian in history. It has evolved into many Christian nations, just as God promised to Abraham.
I happen to believe God's promise encompasses the Millennial Kingdom, in which Israel and these Christian nations will be restored. The fulfillment, however, does not require that every citizen of a Christian state be a genuine Christian or practice true Christianity. Again, it only requires the constitution and a significant number of true, practicing Christians.
I believe God wants to save not just the individual, but also the society. He is the God of the Kingdom, and not God of the island, or God or the monastery or God of the lone prophet in the wilderness. He wants the prophet to turn the people back to God to live in just and compassionate societies where He can dwell in His people, giving them life, love, and the hope of eternity.
But I'm a realist as well as a Premillennialist. I believe that nations in the present age, including Christian nations, always fall. Sin infects a society, spreads, and then the wicked take over and dominate, suppressing the righteous. Christ will come back to remedy this.
I realize that a country is not just its leader. But my point was that God promised Abraham *nations of faith.* That doesn't mean every citizen of a Christian country has to have genuine faith or practice true Christianity. What is required to fulfil this promise is to have a nation with a Christian constitution with a significant number of true, practicing Christians identifying it as such.
We had the mantle of theocracy passed from Israel in the OT to Roman society in the NT. This is a reality, despite the fact Rome was divided, corrupt, and flawed, and in fact fell.
However, the reality is that Roman society became European society, or European Civilization, which has largely been Christian in history. It has evolved into many Christian nations, just as God promised to Abraham.
I happen to believe God's promise encompasses the Millennial Kingdom, in which Israel and these Christian nations will be restored. The fulfillment, however, does not require that every citizen of a Christian state be a genuine Christian or practice true Christianity. Again, it only requires the constitution and a significant number of true, practicing Christians.
I believe God wants to save not just the individual, but also the society. He is the God of the Kingdom, and not God of the island, or God or the monastery or God of the lone prophet in the wilderness. He wants the prophet to turn the people back to God to live in just and compassionate societies where He can dwell in His people, giving them life, love, and the hope of eternity.
But I'm a realist as well as a Premillennialist. I believe that nations in the present age, including Christian nations, always fall. Sin infects a society, spreads, and then the wicked take over and dominate, suppressing the righteous. Christ will come back to remedy this.
We had the mantle of theocracy passed from Israel in the OT to Roman society in the NT. This is a reality, despite the fact Rome was divided, corrupt, and flawed, and in fact fell.
However, the reality is that Roman society became European society, or European Civilization, which has largely been Christian in history. It has evolved into many Christian nations, just as God promised to Abraham.
I happen to believe God's promise encompasses the Millennial Kingdom, in which Israel and these Christian nations will be restored. The fulfillment, however, does not require that every citizen of a Christian state be a genuine Christian or practice true Christianity. Again, it only requires the constitution and a significant number of true, practicing Christians.
I believe God wants to save not just the individual, but also the society. He is the God of the Kingdom, and not God of the island, or God or the monastery or God of the lone prophet in the wilderness. He wants the prophet to turn the people back to God to live in just and compassionate societies where He can dwell in His people, giving them life, love, and the hope of eternity.
But I'm a realist as well as a Premillennialist. I believe that nations in the present age, including Christian nations, always fall. Sin infects a society, spreads, and then the wicked take over and dominate, suppressing the righteous. Christ will come back to remedy this.
well, the Kingdom of God isn't a democracy. it's absolute monarchy.
so no big objection from me
it's only the world, after all
so no big objection from me
it's only the world, after all
The First and Second Amendments are KEY to all that followed.
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
26And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
Acts ch17