The main reason there can never be true unity between Catholics and Christians
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The RCC says this https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.
The Scriptures say this
Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom_5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
I do not see/read an exception listed in Scripture do you?
The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.
The Scriptures say this
Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom_5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
I do not see/read an exception listed in Scripture do you?
Catholic Heresy (for the record) - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
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The OP of ^ that thread ^ is the owner of this site.
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“It's called the Eucharist and transubstantiation. If the Jesus a Catholic trusts in is the Jesus who Catholic clerics all over the world claim to manifest in a piece of bread, they don't know the true Jesus; that is, the Jesus who was sacrificed once for all.”
are you sure you understand what Catholics believe regarding the bread of communion ? Consider this
“For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.”
1 Corinthians 11:23-30 KJV
do you think it probably comes from some verses like that that they look at the bread as Jesus body and partake ?
I’m not an expert on Catholicism but it seems like you aren’t either
are you sure you understand what Catholics believe regarding the bread of communion ? Consider this
“For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.”
1 Corinthians 11:23-30 KJV
do you think it probably comes from some verses like that that they look at the bread as Jesus body and partake ?
I’m not an expert on Catholicism but it seems like you aren’t either
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They understand. They've been indoctrinated since they were children. The ones who convert as adults go through a period of preparation.
I find it really hard to believe individual Catholics don't understand what they're doing. If they don't agree with Catholic teaching they should go elsewhere. Why participate in a lie?
I can understand a person needing time; but eventually they need to cut and run if they understand what they're doing is wrong.
You don't have to be an expert, it's elementary.
I find it really hard to believe individual Catholics don't understand what they're doing. If they don't agree with Catholic teaching they should go elsewhere. Why participate in a lie?
I can understand a person needing time; but eventually they need to cut and run if they understand what they're doing is wrong.
You don't have to be an expert, it's elementary.
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Yes, well said. In addition, there is the unanimous testimony of the Church Fathers about the Holy Eucharist. Some of the Church Fathers were disciples of the Apostles themselves, while others were Bishops appointed slightly later on.
"
St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 350 A.D.)
For just as the bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the Body of Christ and the wine the Blood of Christ…(Catechetical Lectures 19 [Mystagogic 1], 7)
This one teaching of the blessed Paul is enough to give you complete certainty about the Divine Mysteries, by your having been deemed worthy of which, you have become united in body and blood with Christ. For Paul proclaimed clearly that: "On the night in which He was betrayed, our Lord Jesus Christ, taking bread and giving thanks, broke it and gave it to His disciples, saying: 'Take, eat, This is My Body.' And taking the cup and giving thanks, He said, 'Take, drink, This is My Blood.'" He Himself, therefore, having declared and said of the Bread, "This is My Body," who will dare any longer to doubt? And when He Himself has affirmed and said, "This is My Blood," who can ever hesitate and say it is not His Blood? (22 [Mystagogic 4], 1)
Once in Cana of Galilee He changed the water into wine, a thing related to blood; and is His changing of wine into Blood not credible? When invited to an ordinary marriage, with a miracle He performed that glorious deed. And is it not much more to be confessed that He has betowed His Body and His Blood upon the wedding guests?(22 [Mystagogic 4], 2)"
Taken from: http://therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/fathers.htm Imho, there is so much joy in receiving the Body/Blood of Christ.
In Christ,
Xavier.
"
St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 350 A.D.)
For just as the bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the Body of Christ and the wine the Blood of Christ…(Catechetical Lectures 19 [Mystagogic 1], 7)
This one teaching of the blessed Paul is enough to give you complete certainty about the Divine Mysteries, by your having been deemed worthy of which, you have become united in body and blood with Christ. For Paul proclaimed clearly that: "On the night in which He was betrayed, our Lord Jesus Christ, taking bread and giving thanks, broke it and gave it to His disciples, saying: 'Take, eat, This is My Body.' And taking the cup and giving thanks, He said, 'Take, drink, This is My Blood.'" He Himself, therefore, having declared and said of the Bread, "This is My Body," who will dare any longer to doubt? And when He Himself has affirmed and said, "This is My Blood," who can ever hesitate and say it is not His Blood? (22 [Mystagogic 4], 1)
Once in Cana of Galilee He changed the water into wine, a thing related to blood; and is His changing of wine into Blood not credible? When invited to an ordinary marriage, with a miracle He performed that glorious deed. And is it not much more to be confessed that He has betowed His Body and His Blood upon the wedding guests?(22 [Mystagogic 4], 2)"
Taken from: http://therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/fathers.htm Imho, there is so much joy in receiving the Body/Blood of Christ.
In Christ,
Xavier.
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yes or else one of us doesn’t understand what they believe maybe ? Probably both Of us. And it seems like one of us thinks he knows what “ Catholics “ believe
you keep saying Catholics claim Jesus is manifest in bread and dies repeatedly at every mass ? Have you ever heard Catholics even a majority of them say anything like that ?
Or is it maybe just what you think , they think based on them partaking of the bread that Jesus said to partake of in remembrance of his body , which was slain for our transgressions of the world given once for all and extending until the end of the world and beyond for those who hear about what he’s done for them and believe
they believe in what he’s said and done and follow after what he said to believe and do , even in remembrance of him and his one time death that applies to every day of a Christian believers life from the generation Jesus walked among us until the last generation of mankind one sacrifice and those who have believed , do believe and Will believe and follow after the truth
Communion is when a person examines thief life in repentance , and remembers in thier heart and mind the truth that Jesus Christ our lord , poured out all his blood , and gave his body over to be broken for our sins , so our sins can be forgiven and remitted
and they hear what Jesus said about partaking of the bread and cup his body and blood in remembrance. Doing this is like the daily sacrifice of the ot it’s a reminder To us that Jesus died once for all our sins and our acceptance of it by our observance of the gospel.
baptism , communion with the body and blood, accepting his teachings and judgements all of these things were taught are for our benefit communion specifically is like a daily sacrifice provided by Christ in the gospel and taught to the church by the apostles a reminder and fellowship in heart and mind with Christ his sacrifice for us , and his life given To us
Consider this again being the reason Paul taught communion partaking of the bread and cup later as so important
“Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”
John 6:49-51, 53-58
What he’s talking about is every time we take communion it’s meant to be done as we are reflecting on Jesus his suffering and death when his body was broken for us and so he told his disciples to break the bread together in continuing remembrance of him and his sacrifice and to drink of the cup in reflecting on our sins with repentance which his blood was poured out for remission of our sins
by observing things like communion were partaking of the things Jesus said to partake of me have the promised Jesus made and died to authorize and seal forever
you keep saying Catholics claim Jesus is manifest in bread and dies repeatedly at every mass ? Have you ever heard Catholics even a majority of them say anything like that ?
Or is it maybe just what you think , they think based on them partaking of the bread that Jesus said to partake of in remembrance of his body , which was slain for our transgressions of the world given once for all and extending until the end of the world and beyond for those who hear about what he’s done for them and believe
they believe in what he’s said and done and follow after what he said to believe and do , even in remembrance of him and his one time death that applies to every day of a Christian believers life from the generation Jesus walked among us until the last generation of mankind one sacrifice and those who have believed , do believe and Will believe and follow after the truth
Communion is when a person examines thief life in repentance , and remembers in thier heart and mind the truth that Jesus Christ our lord , poured out all his blood , and gave his body over to be broken for our sins , so our sins can be forgiven and remitted
and they hear what Jesus said about partaking of the bread and cup his body and blood in remembrance. Doing this is like the daily sacrifice of the ot it’s a reminder To us that Jesus died once for all our sins and our acceptance of it by our observance of the gospel.
baptism , communion with the body and blood, accepting his teachings and judgements all of these things were taught are for our benefit communion specifically is like a daily sacrifice provided by Christ in the gospel and taught to the church by the apostles a reminder and fellowship in heart and mind with Christ his sacrifice for us , and his life given To us
Consider this again being the reason Paul taught communion partaking of the bread and cup later as so important
“Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”
John 6:49-51, 53-58
What he’s talking about is every time we take communion it’s meant to be done as we are reflecting on Jesus his suffering and death when his body was broken for us and so he told his disciples to break the bread together in continuing remembrance of him and his sacrifice and to drink of the cup in reflecting on our sins with repentance which his blood was poured out for remission of our sins
by observing things like communion were partaking of the things Jesus said to partake of me have the promised Jesus made and died to authorize and seal forever
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yes brother regarding the bread I don’t see an issue I myself have other issues with Catholicism but also believe thier are faithful Catholics , Protestants , babtists ect ….even non denominational believers I believe the faithful in Christ are his no matter what denomination they identify with if they believe the gospel in scripture they are his
it seems many denominations have issues in my own thoughts, Catholicism being one of those with issues in my humble belief but they don’t think Jesus died many times as far as I’ve ever heard anyways but again I’m no expert on Catholicism or Christianity either
I just try my best not to judge by labels and what I’ve heard about other denominations and try to let the indovidual tell Me what they believe generalities are an issue in my view
it seems many denominations have issues in my own thoughts, Catholicism being one of those with issues in my humble belief but they don’t think Jesus died many times as far as I’ve ever heard anyways but again I’m no expert on Catholicism or Christianity either
I just try my best not to judge by labels and what I’ve heard about other denominations and try to let the indovidual tell Me what they believe generalities are an issue in my view
I don't think that I read this quote of Martyr's quite the same as you. The "AND BY THE CHANGE OF WHICH" that you have there is also rendered "transformed".
Martyr was trying to correct the errors in the understandings of non-believers of the era, that's why he wrote the "Apology" to begin with. One of those errors was that Christians were practicing cannibalism. Therefore, I find it highly doubtful that he would be arguing for transubstantiation.
Here's part 66 in full: (biblehub)
66. This food we call Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Saviour being incarnate by God's word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus. [819] For the apostles in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, thus handed down what was commanded them: that Jesus, taking bread and having given thanks, said, "Do this for my memorial, this is my body"; and likewise taking the cup and giving thanks he said, "This is my blood"; and gave it to them alone. [820] This also the wicked demons in imitation handed down as something to be done in the mysteries of Mithra; for bread and a cup of water are brought out in their secret rites of initiation, with certain invocations which you either know or can learn.
Martyr was trying to correct the errors in the understandings of non-believers of the era, that's why he wrote the "Apology" to begin with. One of those errors was that Christians were practicing cannibalism. Therefore, I find it highly doubtful that he would be arguing for transubstantiation.
Here's part 66 in full: (biblehub)
66. This food we call Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Saviour being incarnate by God's word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus. [819] For the apostles in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, thus handed down what was commanded them: that Jesus, taking bread and having given thanks, said, "Do this for my memorial, this is my body"; and likewise taking the cup and giving thanks he said, "This is my blood"; and gave it to them alone. [820] This also the wicked demons in imitation handed down as something to be done in the mysteries of Mithra; for bread and a cup of water are brought out in their secret rites of initiation, with certain invocations which you either know or can learn.
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841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
This ccc prof catholic God is not Christian God
Catholic and Muslim share the same God.
Christian and Muslim not share the same God
So catholic and Christian must not worship the same God
This ccc prof catholic God is not Christian God
Catholic and Muslim share the same God.
Christian and Muslim not share the same God
So catholic and Christian must not worship the same God
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Notice they do not say, "Faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob"? That's because they do not
believe Isaac to be the son of promise. In fact they believe Ishmael to be the child of promise,
and not Isaac, the father of Jacob, through whom the 12 tribes of Israel came... and Jesus.
Ishmael: the forefather of Muhammed.
believe Isaac to be the son of promise. In fact they believe Ishmael to be the child of promise,
and not Isaac, the father of Jacob, through whom the 12 tribes of Israel came... and Jesus.
Ishmael: the forefather of Muhammed.
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God named him Ishmael. Speaking to Hagar, God said,
“You are now pregnant, and you will give birth to a son. You
shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery."
And says this of Ishmael:
"He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and
everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”
Immediately following this, God renews his promise to Abraham and Sarah,
changing their names, and promising an everlasting covenant through Isaac.
Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will
establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and
will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
But that means nothing in Islam. In Islam, Ishmael is the child of promise, and Muhammad its fulfillment.
And the pope endorses this.
“You are now pregnant, and you will give birth to a son. You
shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery."
And says this of Ishmael:
"He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and
everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”
Immediately following this, God renews his promise to Abraham and Sarah,
changing their names, and promising an everlasting covenant through Isaac.
Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will
establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and
will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
But that means nothing in Islam. In Islam, Ishmael is the child of promise, and Muhammad its fulfillment.
And the pope endorses this.
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C
Tracy, in that post, also referred to 'other' heresies besides Catholic ones. I could raise posts denouncing all the denominations I've visited, and some I haven't. To what purpose would that achieve...except some kind of incitement to riot or conflict. My concern is that forum rules oblige us to act cordially towards one another. I can't see how throwing a bone out amongst a pack that are here among us to satisfy their want for argument and theological fights, is edifying, and can be truthfully labelled 'chat'!
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Those post are what the RCC teaches. Just as in any denomination Joe Pew may not 100% agree with what is coming from the pulpit. Personally i believe there are baby Christians in the RCC as they mature in the Lord they will get out . If they mature in the RCC dogma they will stay being chatolics not Christian
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