Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 13, 2022

I'd like to hear what someone has to say about Job 17:4

NIV - "You have closed their minds to understanding; therefore you will not let them triumph."

Although this is Job likely talking about his three friends that don't seem to be soothing or comforting him, this is a glimpse of the Jews and their hardened hearts. Or, this refers to all of humanity and their Indwelling Curse of the Lord (Gal 3:13).

Do your Bibles translate this another way that doesn't clearly show that God strips people of their ability to "understand"? And if a person is limited to understanding a "thing," how can that person claim that they are free to choose? How can a person be free to choose if they have been restricted in their ability to understand? If a person has been limited to intellectually understanding their choices, then goodbye to free will, self-will, or whatever we want to call it.

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 13, 2022

In Genesis chapter 50, I showed the text where Joseph said to his brothers, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it all for good." Going back to that topic, I have found in chapter 45 a similar statement from Joseph. It's as follows:

Genesis 45:5-8 NKJV - "But now, do not therefore be grieved or angry with yourselves because you sold me here; for God sent me before you to preserve life. "For these two years the famine has been in the land, and there are still five years in which there will be neither plowing nor harvesting. "And God sent me before you to preserve a posterity for you in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. "So now it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt."

Here, we find some pretty incredible statements from Joseph. He clearly states that his brothers should not be angry with themselves what they had done. Why? Because their choice to sell Joseph into slavery was not of their own free will. Joseph then goes on to say three times that it was God who had sent him . . . and not by the decisions of his brothers. Even more, Joseph states that "God has made him" a father to Pharaoh.

Why is it so difficult to see that God is in control of the human mind? Why continue to refuse to believe what is crystal clear and obvious?

So I will ask again . . . how do you know that God is not causing you to "choose" to do the things that you're doing for the benefit of the greater good? And again, what do you think about God stripping the free will right to choose what they should do with Joseph? Do you have a problem with God doing what He clearly does?

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 13, 2022

Numbers 16:5 KJV - "And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him."

Did you notice that the word "cause" was used twice in this one verse? Did you notice that it is God who chooses a person? And did you notice that it is God who will cause a person to "come near unto him"? - I don’t see any sense of free or self-will in verse 5.

This is quite an odd thing for the Lord to have us write down for humanity if there was such as thing as "free will," wouldn't you saY"

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 13, 2022

In an earlier post, I referenced Deut 2:25, where the Lord said: "Beginning today I will make people throughout the earth terrified because of you."

Going back to this moment in time, when the Lord was wiping out the abominations that occupied the land of Milk and Honey, we find that God literally caused king Sihon to make a choice that apparently was not of his own volition. It reads as follows:

Deuteronomy 2:30, 33-34 ESV - 30 "But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might give him into your hand, as he is this day." ... 33 "And the LORD our God gave him over to us, and we defeated him and his sons and all his people. 34 And we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction every city, men, women, and children. We left no survivors."

To the majority who say that people have been given the free right to choose, particularly their own feelings, does this bother you? Are you angry with God that he would strip king Sihon of his free right to choose whether or not he would be willing to allow the Jews to pass by him without issue, battle, and war? What if God had not intervened? Doesn't it seem obvious that if God had not intervened, that king Sihon would have allowed Israel to pass without issue?

But that isn't what happened. Instead, God "made his heart obstinate," which resulted in the murder of all men, women, and children. There were no survivors." Scripture is clear, which is that God controlled the decisions of king Sihon which resulted in the deaths of all men, women, and children . . . and yet "you" believe that all "people" have the right to choose their own fate. Obviously, the controlled decision of this king, on this day, resulted in the deaths of an entire set of "people."

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 13, 2022

Below, we find one of the single most important Scriptures throughout the entire Bible. Deut 30:6 strikes the very "heart" of the Bible, for it identifies the Purpose of Christ, the Work of Christ, and the Effect of Christ. The Purpose of Christ is to Circumcise our hearts of the Curse that stems from the disobedience of Adam and Eve. The Work of Christ is that very same Spiritual Circumcision, an Operation of Faith. The Effect of Christ is obvious . . .

Deuteronomy 30:6 NLT - "The LORD your God will change your heart and the hearts of all your descendants, so that you will love him with all your heart and soul and so you may live!"

The above passage makes it abundantly clear that until Circumcision of the Heart takes place, a person is not free to Love God with all our heart and soul. As the text clearly states, God must first change our hearts SO THAT these things can occur, for no one is capable of changing their own heart. No one is capable of lifting the Curse that binds us to disobedience.

To be clear, until God changes our hearts, we cannot Love Him the way He desires. We might "say" that we Love Him, but our actions likely do not reflect our empty words (when we call Him Lord and Master). Until we receive Circumcision of Heart, it is impossible to be whole and complete.

Below, notice how being whole and complete are directly related to Circumcision of Heart. So again, no one is capable of the freedom to choose and think freely until Spiritual Circumcision has taken place. Until then, the Devil has taken us captive to do his will.

2 Timothy 2:26 NKJV - ". . . and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."

Friends, THIS IS THE GOSPEL of Jesus Christ.

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 13, 2022

Ugg . . . I forgot to add the Scriptures that show how a person is whole and complete as it directly relates to Circumcision of Heart:

Colossians 2:10-11 NLT - "So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature."

FreeGrace2 · Jun 14, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

Below, we find one of the single most important Scriptures throughout the entire Bible. Deut 30:6 strikes the very "heart" of the Bible, for it identifies the Purpose of Christ, the Work of Christ, and the Effect of Christ. The Purpose of Christ is to Circumcise our hearts of the Curse that stems from the disobedience of Adam and Eve. The Work of Christ is that very same Spiritual Circumcision, an Operation of Faith. The Effect of Christ is obvious . . .

Deuteronomy 30:6 NLT - "The LORD your God will change your heart and the hearts of all your descendants, so that you will love him with all your heart and soul and so you may live!"

The above passage makes it abundantly clear that until Circumcision of the Heart takes place, a person is not free to Love God with all our heart and soul. As the text clearly states, God must first change our hearts SO THAT these things can occur, for no one is capable of changing their own heart. No one is capable of lifting the Curse that binds us to disobedience.

To be clear, until God changes our hearts, we cannot Love Him the way He desires. We might "say" that we Love Him, but our actions likely do not reflect our empty words (when we call Him Lord and Master). Until we receive Circumcision of Heart, it is impossible to be whole and complete.

Below, notice how being whole and complete are directly related to Circumcision of Heart. So again, no one is capable of the freedom to choose and think freely until Spiritual Circumcision has taken place. Until then, the Devil has taken us captive to do his will.

2 Timothy 2:26 NKJV - ". . . and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."

Friends, THIS IS THE GOSPEL of Jesus Christ.

The good news of Jesus Christ is that as the Son of God, He died on a cross for YOUR (everyone's) sins, paying the sin debt in full, so that salvation is by grace through faith in Him. Eph 2:8

Circumcision of the heart is a euphemism or figure of speech for being born again, or regenerated.

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 14, 2022

Joshua 11:19-20 NLT - "No one in this region made peace with the Israelites except the Hivites of Gibeon. All the others were defeated. For the LORD hardened their hearts and caused them to fight the Israelites. So they were completely destroyed without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses."

It is as plain as day . . . Which is that if it were not for the Holy Mind Control of God, that those from the Seven Nations would not have fought Israel. Instead, God caused these abominations to hate Israel . . . And yet they had no good reason for why.

So, why [DID] the Seven Nations view Israel as their enemies? Because the Lord "caused" the hearts of the Seven Nations to despise them, causing them to physically fight the Jews so that they, the Seven Nations, would be destroyed. And again, what is the Purpose of such actions by the Lord? So that the world would know that their God was the True God of this world. The NET translation uses the phrase "then they will know" 29 times in the NET translation. Why? Because Power is the number one concept, we are to understand throughout the Bible, that where there is genuine Fear of the Lord, Wisdom of the Lord will be found.

So as for free will, where is the free will of those who the Lord destroyed? It is clear that if it were not for God taking control over the thoughts and decisions of these Nations, they would have made a different decision, which would have been to live in peace with Israel. If the Seven Nations were already at enmity with Israel, God would not have been compelled to "harden" their hearts, causing them to fight Israel.

So what do you think of this? Is this fair that God stripped these Nations of their free right to choose?

FreeGrace2 · Jun 14, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

The exact words are used for Pharaoh, and we know from the text what that meant for Pharaoh. Pharaoh hardened his own heart for the first 5 plagues, before the Bible says "God hardened Pharoah's heart". And Ex 9:15 is very clear; Pharaoh could have been "wiped off the earth by that time". Therefore, God hardened Pharaoh in the sense that He allowed him to live longer, which allowed Pharaoh's heart to harden further. God did not move Pharaoh in a different direction than he was already going.

Same principle here. The "7 nations" weren't initally friendly to Israel. When the Israelites were conquering Palestine (promised land) they were commanded to completely wipe out all the people, including children and even animals.

Why? Because the people were so evil. That's how God judged them. Do research on the 7 nations to see what kind of people they were.

Their free will WAS SHOWN by their evil. And the Lord destroyed them for it.

Can you prove or support this from Scripture? That they weren't evil, but rather nice neighbors?

Can you support this from Scripture?

Not necessarily. Maybe Israel was hesitant to attack them. We don't know ALL the details. Let's not speculate.

If they were already evil, they were showing their choices (free will) by what they did.

The story of Pharaoh shows very clearly how God hardened his heart; by allowing Pharaoh to live longer and therefore continue to express his own hardness.

If the 7 nations were basically nice people, good neighbors, and all that, then you might have a point.

But do you really believe that God makes people do evil things?

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 14, 2022

Goodbye to the idea of free will for the below "people."

Judges 7:22 NLT - "When the 300 Israelites blew their rams' horns, the LORD caused the warriors in the camp to fight against each other with their swords. Those who were not killed fled to places as far away as Beth-shittah near Zererah and to the border of Abel-meholah near Tabbath."

Who caused the minds of these warriors to fight one another? Was their decision to do so of their own volition and free will? Or, did God grasp hold of these "people's" minds to cause them to kill one another?

This passage is 100% crystal clear, which is that the Lord controlled the minds of these warriors and caused them to kill one another. There is NO way around this passage that clearly proves that God is capable of determining what a person thinks and does.

Is it wrong that God has clearly stripped the warriors of their free right to not only choose, but to live?

FreeGrace2 · Jun 14, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

The whole text begins at v.1. This gives the full picture.

14 His friend responded, “This can be nothing other than the sword of Gideon son of Joash, the Israelite. God has given the Midianites and the whole camp into his hands.”

So, from this verse, we see that God was clearly helping His chosen people against their enemies.

This isn't about free will. It's about how God protected His people. He could have just hit everyone with lightning.

Not the right question. It was all about God's plan to protect His people against their enemies.

This example is irrelevant to the issue of freedom of choice (free will).

The real focus is whether unregenerate man CAN understand the gospel promise and trust that promise.

And the biblical answer is a resounding YES, they can.

God will certainly get His way. So when He promised His chosen people that He would protect them, He clearly did.

But, concerning salvation, the offer of salvation is available to everyone, and each person is responsible for their response to the gospel.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

John146 · Jun 14, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

For a long time the Lord wanted to gather Israel but they didn’t want it. He didn’t violate their free will.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 15, 2022

John146 said:

Are you sure?

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. 8 As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

The Jews WERE capable of understanding and obeying, however, when Moses lowered the Veil. Are you familiar with the Veil?

2 Corinthians 3:14-15 NLT - "But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand."

You've missed the Mysterious Plan of God that Paul talks about in Ephesians chapters 2 and 3. Until a person understands these things, they cannot fully grasp the actual Gospel of Jesus Christ . . . the Story of God.

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 15, 2022

Are we familiar with the story of the first king of Israel, king Abimelech and how the Lord arose a spirit of ill-will between them? This is a story of how Abimelech became king (through lying and murder) and how the Lord turned the hearts of the "men" of Shechem against him to reverse the kingship. If not familiar with the story, I suggest reading Judges chapter 9. Nonetheless, below, we find the clear text that the Lord placed the ideas of how to treat the king so as to reverse that kingship. And once again, this is ultimately another story that revolves around the Power of God and how [He] controls events . . . so that the world will know that He alone is God of all.

Judges 9:23 NIV - "God stirred up animosity between Abimelek and the citizens of Shechem so that they acted treacherously against Abimelek."

Judges 9:23 KJV - "Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:"

How do "you" know that God does not act this way in your life, or in the lives of those around you? And what does this say about our sense of choice to choose our own thoughts, feelings, actions, and desires? How do you know, for sure, that God doesn't do this in your life?

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 15, 2022

We're finally back and on target with the timeline, chronological order of how God controls people, animals, and events to fulfill His Will . . . His Eternal Plan which no human can thwart.

Familiar with the story of Samson? Are you familiar with how God caused Samson to desire a Philistine woman so that He, the Lord, would have the opportunity to "confront" this Philistine Nation?

Judges 14:1-4 NIV - "Samson went down to Timnah and saw there a young Philistine woman. When he returned, he said to his father and mother, "I have seen a Philistine woman in Timnah; now get her for me as my wife." His father and mother replied, "Isn't there an acceptable woman among your relatives or among all our people? Must you go to the uncircumcised Philistines to get a wife?" But Samson said to his father, "Get her for me. She's the right one for me." (His parents did not know that this was from the LORD, who was seeking an occasion to confront the Philistines; for at that time they were ruling over Israel.)"

Did Samson know that his desire for the Philistine woman was caused by God? We know, for sure, that the parents of Samson were unaware of this Eternal Plan of God's, for Scripture makes it clear. And of course, Samson's parents were right, which is that the Jews were not to intermarry with the Philistines, for they were yet to be grafted in per Psalms 87:04.

But what is clear is that God has a Plan and that it must and will be fulfilled. How does God accomplish His Will and Plan? He causes people and animals to act according to that prewritten Plan; a Plan written upon the Heavenly Scroll of the Lord. So, where is "free will" in this story? It does not exist . . . once again, for it is clear that the Plan of God is in full force and is executed flawlessly.

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 16, 2022

Onward to king Saul and the how an "evil" spirit troubled the mind of the king. That's right . . . the king's mind was not free to choose it's own thoughts and feelings, but instead, God sent this spirit to him to literally cause him trouble. What's up with that? And what about the king's free will right to choose? Exactly . . . Saul was not given a choice as to whether or not he would be intellectually tormented.

1 Samuel 16:14-16 KJV - "But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well."

What is the purpose of young David? To help cause the king to feel better (emotionally).

The story of king Saul shows us that whether our Father is Satan or Christ, we will live out our lives according to the ideas of our Spiritual Father. Was it Saul's choice to be given over to an Evil Spirit who was [sent] by the Lord Himself? Look at how that Evil Spirit caused Saul to change his way of thinking completely. His mindset became bent on murdering David, the same David who loved king Saul with unwavering forgiveness (sounds like Christ in how He viewed those killing Him as He hung on the cross). But there is no doubt about it that king Saul started out as a very good king (perhaps much like all of Israel), but after the reception of this Evil Spirit, his entire way of thinking was changed (perhaps much like all of Israel, for God, issued them "deep sleep." Now . . . was this Saul's choice? Did Saul choose this torturous way of thinking that he hated so much? Saul was miserable with thoughts of pointless murder. Saul was extremely unsettled and unhappy. Was this his choice? Did he choose each of the things that this new mind of his had come up with? And these new thoughts of his . . . who, or what is the origin? It was the evil Spirit that came from the Lord Himself!

FreeGrace2 · Jun 16, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

I will present biblical truth that refutes the claim that "God caused Samson to desire a Philistine woman".

The red words "this was from the LORD" does not say or mean that God CAUSED Samson's actions.

Since the Calvinist position is that man's belief/faith/trust MUST BE CAUSED by God, from their flawed view of total depravity, they are forced to find passages that "show" that God causes a whole lot of things, in order to support their basic claim that God causes ONLY the elect to believe.

Paul wrote this:
Acts 17:26 - 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

iow, from Adam, God created the entire human race. Also, Paul explained that God placed each person WHEN (times in history) and WHERE (the boundaries of their lands) He chose.

Since God is omniscient (all knowing), He knows everyone's desires. In order to get "an occasion to confront the Philistines", God placed Samson, with his own lusting heart, WHEN and WHERE He did in order to meet Delilah. And God placed Delilah WHEN and WHERE He did in order to meet Samson. Bingo!! "this was from the LORD". Their meeting. Not causing Samson to lust after her.

Judges 16:1 - One day Samson went to Gaza, where he saw a prostitute. He went in to spend the night with her.

This proves that Samson had an eye for the woman. Not too particular.

Judges 16:4 - Some time later, he fell in love with a woman in the Valley of Sorek whose name was Delilah.

So we see that Samson made the rounds with women.

All this shows that what was "from the LORD" was the MEETING between Samson and Delilah. Not that God caused Samson to lust after her.

His desire came from himself. From his own heart. Rom 10:10

Makes what clear, exactly?

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 16, 2022

Surely, those of us who have studied king Saul and his relationship must have felt sorrow for the king. Why? Because we understand that it wasn't Saul who was in control of his own thoughts, choices, and decisions. Simply put, it wasn't right that the evil spirit that was forced upon him would cause him to hate David as he did.

1 Samuel 18:10-11 NKJV - "And it happened on the next day that the distressing spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied inside the house. So David played music with his hand, as at other times; but there was a spear in Saul's hand. And Saul cast the spear, for he said, "I will pin David to the wall!" But David escaped his presence twice."

Again, it was God who had cast an evil spirit upon Saul. This evil spirit caused the angrily confused king to throw a spear at David, attempting to kill him. So what do we say about "free will"? Where was Saul's choice and decision in this matter?

XavierJesusLovesIndia · Jun 16, 2022

1 Corinthians 10:13

13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

Galatians 5:13

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

John 7:17:

17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 16, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

1 Corinthians 10:13

13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

Galatians 5:13

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

John 7:17:

17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Yes, these are great Bible verses.

Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

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