does this apply to WOF?
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J
I think so. We are to lose our lives for Jesus' sake, so we can find them. Not figure out how to manipulate God to get what we want. God is not a vending machine. We are supposed to die to self.
"Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, for God has said: “Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you.” - Hebrews 13:5 BSB
"Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, for God has said: “Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you.” - Hebrews 13:5 BSB
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God is not a vending machine, and He will not tolerate being treated as one.
Luke 17:10
“So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”
The prophets and apostles did not seek to live lifestyles of the rich and famous, and neither should we.
Luke 17:10
“So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”
The prophets and apostles did not seek to live lifestyles of the rich and famous, and neither should we.
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There is godly prosperity and there is worldly prosperity. The bible is not "give, give, give ...." the bible is "give and receive" God will never be in any man's debt.
"Give and it shall be given you again, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over shall men give into your bosom"
Jesus was a prosperity teacher.
"Give and it shall be given you again, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over shall men give into your bosom"
Jesus was a prosperity teacher.
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And yet dearest brother Oyster they did become rich and famous, who has not heard of Peter James and John? who has not heard how the people sold their properties and brought the proceeds and laid them at the feet of the apostles.
Poor Paul and Barnabas
They suffered deprivation, hunger and nakedness while Peter and the others would go on preaching tours with their wives ... because they chose to. There is godly prosperity and there is worldly prosperity. And there is a mindset that goes with each kind. Peter recognised godly prosperity and correct thinking while Paul totally rejected worldly prosperity and went out of his way to discourage the idea that God could be bought or any of His blessings could be paid for. But Paul did not mind receiving money from the churches.
It's that narrowest of lines which we tread. Nothing so tests our hearts than the matter of wealth. The answer is to follow hard after God and leave Him to follow after us with His blessings, Believe it is His will that we should prosper and be in good health even as our souls prosper.
Paul sought to bless and enrich others.
If everyone followed his teaching in Corinthians regarding giving we would all certainly prosper in measure, he that gave little received little but he who gave much received much for God is able to make His blessings leap towards us.
Let all India know that the route to godly prosperity is cheerful giving.
The problem with WOF preaching is their theology, everything starts with us for them instead of waiting upon the Lord. They think to force God to do things. In the matter of salvation they are to told to confess to be saved by standing forward etc even if no saving work has been done, In the matter of healing they are taught to jump up and down even though no healing has yet taken place and in the matter of prosperity they are taught they must first give extravagantly in order to receive God's plenty.
It is God's will to do those things, but He will not be co - ersed or blackmailed or bullied or heckled into doing it. He will do it in His own way.
Peace good Oyster.
Poor Paul and Barnabas
They suffered deprivation, hunger and nakedness while Peter and the others would go on preaching tours with their wives ... because they chose to. There is godly prosperity and there is worldly prosperity. And there is a mindset that goes with each kind. Peter recognised godly prosperity and correct thinking while Paul totally rejected worldly prosperity and went out of his way to discourage the idea that God could be bought or any of His blessings could be paid for. But Paul did not mind receiving money from the churches.
It's that narrowest of lines which we tread. Nothing so tests our hearts than the matter of wealth. The answer is to follow hard after God and leave Him to follow after us with His blessings, Believe it is His will that we should prosper and be in good health even as our souls prosper.
Paul sought to bless and enrich others.
If everyone followed his teaching in Corinthians regarding giving we would all certainly prosper in measure, he that gave little received little but he who gave much received much for God is able to make His blessings leap towards us.
Let all India know that the route to godly prosperity is cheerful giving.
The problem with WOF preaching is their theology, everything starts with us for them instead of waiting upon the Lord. They think to force God to do things. In the matter of salvation they are to told to confess to be saved by standing forward etc even if no saving work has been done, In the matter of healing they are taught to jump up and down even though no healing has yet taken place and in the matter of prosperity they are taught they must first give extravagantly in order to receive God's plenty.
It is God's will to do those things, but He will not be co - ersed or blackmailed or bullied or heckled into doing it. He will do it in His own way.
Peace good Oyster.
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When I see a pastor or a church living extravagantly, or I see an extravagant church building I stay away.
The difference: in the extravangant church you walk in and walk out afterwards.
in the simple church you walk in, fellowship, share, and then go forth with joy.
(That is a generalization, of course)
The difference: in the extravangant church you walk in and walk out afterwards.
in the simple church you walk in, fellowship, share, and then go forth with joy.
(That is a generalization, of course)
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This presupposes that that these apostles used the money on themselves.
The problem that I see here is this term "PROSPER". It appears you are using this to mean earthly wealth. Your words, contrast our souls prospering in a Spiritual sense, with some type of earthly sense:
"Believe it is His will that we should prosper and be in good health even as our souls prosper."
I am not suggesting we need to take a vow of poverty, but IMO opinion you are venturing close to a prosperity (earthly) gospel.
The wealth and richness we have is IN Christ, and should NEVER be mixed with or confused with any earthly wealth.
Sorry if this sounds a little rough, but dressing up the prosperity gospel with this concept of Godly prosperity vs. worldly prosperity, in ANY material, or possessions, or even health, seems incredibly confusing, especially to baby Christians, and earnest seekers of Christ. Because there IS a GODLY prosperity we should preach about, having NOTHING to do with earthly wealth and health.
THIS, is wealth and richness Paul talks about:
Corinthians 4:6-13
New King James Version
Fools for Christ’s Sake
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be [a]puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7 For who [b]makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
8 You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us—and indeed I could wish you did reign, that we also might reign with you! 9 For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle [c]to the world, both to angels and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored! 11 To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. 12 And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; 13 being defamed, we [d]entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now.
The problem that I see here is this term "PROSPER". It appears you are using this to mean earthly wealth. Your words, contrast our souls prospering in a Spiritual sense, with some type of earthly sense:
"Believe it is His will that we should prosper and be in good health even as our souls prosper."
I am not suggesting we need to take a vow of poverty, but IMO opinion you are venturing close to a prosperity (earthly) gospel.
The wealth and richness we have is IN Christ, and should NEVER be mixed with or confused with any earthly wealth.
Sorry if this sounds a little rough, but dressing up the prosperity gospel with this concept of Godly prosperity vs. worldly prosperity, in ANY material, or possessions, or even health, seems incredibly confusing, especially to baby Christians, and earnest seekers of Christ. Because there IS a GODLY prosperity we should preach about, having NOTHING to do with earthly wealth and health.
THIS, is wealth and richness Paul talks about:
Corinthians 4:6-13
New King James Version
Fools for Christ’s Sake
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be [a]puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7 For who [b]makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
8 You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us—and indeed I could wish you did reign, that we also might reign with you! 9 For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle [c]to the world, both to angels and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored! 11 To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. 12 And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; 13 being defamed, we [d]entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now.
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Notice what Proverbs 28:20 says and doesn't say. It says "will have many blessings." Many of the Proverbs are contrasts. Here riches is contrasted with blessings. Those who are "eager to get rich" will be punished; but those who practice truthfulness will be blessed. Not necessarily riches, but blessings.
Word of Faith teaches eagerness to get riches; greed in other words. There's nothing wrong with riches if it's from Yahweh and the person uses his wealth to further the gospel or help the needy. But a wealthy Christian is more the exception than the rule. We're not guaranteed wealth, only that all our needs will be met. The prosperity gospel teaches that "Jesus was a prosperity teacher"; that's a lie. Unless by "prosperity" is meant all kinds of prosperity, not just material wealth. It says everyone should be rich; if not, you're doing something wrong.
Word of Faith teaches eagerness to get riches; greed in other words. There's nothing wrong with riches if it's from Yahweh and the person uses his wealth to further the gospel or help the needy. But a wealthy Christian is more the exception than the rule. We're not guaranteed wealth, only that all our needs will be met. The prosperity gospel teaches that "Jesus was a prosperity teacher"; that's a lie. Unless by "prosperity" is meant all kinds of prosperity, not just material wealth. It says everyone should be rich; if not, you're doing something wrong.
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I am not mixing up, nor does scripture mix up. When scripture talks about soul or spiritual prosperity [and it says much] that is what is intended. When it speaks about giving money and receiving back bounteously it is speaking about money. The bible also says much about that.
We know that Paul would not teach the tithe and yet in 1. Corinthians 16. that is exactly what he is describing except he puts no upper limit of 10 per cent.
"As I directed the churches of Galatia so also you are to do [sounds like a command] On the first day of every week each one of you [no exceptions] is to put something aside and store it up as he may prosper [that's the grace part, God does not expect us to give what He has not already provided] so that contributions need not be made when I come....."
2. Cor. 8
for you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that though He was rich yet for your sakes He became poor so that by His poverty you might become rich [ooooh ....]
Sure He means spiritual, but Jesus never became poor spiritually did He? so he is speaking about material wealth here.
I believe in the FULL gospel. Redemption. full salvation for the whole man body soul and spirit. You say "we don't see it" that's because the church doesn't preach it and not with nearly enough conviction.
2. Cor. 6 -
the point is this, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly and he who sows abundantly will also reap abundantly each one must do as he has made up his mind to do, not reluctantly or under compulsion for God loves the cheerful giver.
This all amounts to steady, faithful and judicious giving ... most christians do this anyway, only the teaching which says we must expect nothing in return is bad teaching and not bible. The bible tells us to expect the blessing
2.COR.7-9
and God is able to provide YOU with every blessing in abundance so that YOU may always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for every good work.
This is the same teaching of Jesus. Give and it shall be given you again good measure ... will MEN put into your bosom ... that is not spiritual that earthly. With the measure you mete it shall be meted to you again.
2. Cor. 10-
He who supplies seed to to the sower and bread to the eater will supply and multiply your resources and increase the harvest of your righteousness. You will be enriched in every way for great generosity which through us will produce thanksgiving to God.
Paul was a prosperity preacher even though he was often without.
You quote yourself from John
God willest above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health even as thy soul prospereth.
That is the FULL gospel for body soul and spirit.
thanks PennEd for your response. Penn for Pennsylvania? William Penn ... the Quaker man who prospered.
We know that Paul would not teach the tithe and yet in 1. Corinthians 16. that is exactly what he is describing except he puts no upper limit of 10 per cent.
"As I directed the churches of Galatia so also you are to do [sounds like a command] On the first day of every week each one of you [no exceptions] is to put something aside and store it up as he may prosper [that's the grace part, God does not expect us to give what He has not already provided] so that contributions need not be made when I come....."
2. Cor. 8
for you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that though He was rich yet for your sakes He became poor so that by His poverty you might become rich [ooooh ....]
Sure He means spiritual, but Jesus never became poor spiritually did He? so he is speaking about material wealth here.
I believe in the FULL gospel. Redemption. full salvation for the whole man body soul and spirit. You say "we don't see it" that's because the church doesn't preach it and not with nearly enough conviction.
2. Cor. 6 -
the point is this, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly and he who sows abundantly will also reap abundantly each one must do as he has made up his mind to do, not reluctantly or under compulsion for God loves the cheerful giver.
This all amounts to steady, faithful and judicious giving ... most christians do this anyway, only the teaching which says we must expect nothing in return is bad teaching and not bible. The bible tells us to expect the blessing
2.COR.7-9
and God is able to provide YOU with every blessing in abundance so that YOU may always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for every good work.
This is the same teaching of Jesus. Give and it shall be given you again good measure ... will MEN put into your bosom ... that is not spiritual that earthly. With the measure you mete it shall be meted to you again.
2. Cor. 10-
He who supplies seed to to the sower and bread to the eater will supply and multiply your resources and increase the harvest of your righteousness. You will be enriched in every way for great generosity which through us will produce thanksgiving to God.
Paul was a prosperity preacher even though he was often without.
You quote yourself from John
God willest above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health even as thy soul prospereth.
That is the FULL gospel for body soul and spirit.
thanks PennEd for your response. Penn for Pennsylvania? William Penn ... the Quaker man who prospered.
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