Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,840
13,558
113
When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas/Peter in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs... “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
(Galatians 2:14-16)


Now tell me, by reading what's written above...What are the "Works of the Law", Paul is talking about?
The Ten Commandments or the Jewish customs Paul is accusing Peter of?
And if these Works of the Law, were a problem with the other churches Paul wrote letters to, why didn't Paul address it with them?
the works of the law are all things in the law, including the 10 commandments, which aren't even the basis of the law. see Romans 7:7 -- the ten commandments are 100% part of the umbrella term "the law" - it is demonstrated.

so have a look at the law:


if a person touches any unclean thing, whether it is the carcass of an unclean beast, or the carcass of unclean livestock, or the carcass of unclean creeping things, and he is unaware of it, he also shall be unclean and guilty. Or if he touches human uncleanness — whatever uncleanness with which a man may be defiled, and he is unaware of it — when he realizes it, then he shall be guilty.
(Leviticus 5:2-3)
and have a look at the prophets:
On the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month, in the second year of Darius, the Word of the Lord came by Haggai the prophet, saying, “Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘Now, ask the priests concerning the law, saying, “If one carries holy meat in the fold of his garment, and with the edge he touches bread or stew, wine or oil, or any food, will it become holy?” ’
Then the priests answered and said, “No.”
And Haggai said, “If one who is unclean because of a dead body touches any of these, will it be unclean?
So the priests answered and said, “It shall be unclean.”
Then Haggai answered and said, “‘So is this people, and so is this nation before Me,’ says the Lord, ‘and so is every work of their hands; and what they offer there is unclean."
(Haggai 2:10-14)


Talmudic customs, even if misguided, did not appear out of thin air.
they are always based in the scripture.
people who touch and eat unclean things are unclean -- Leviticus says so. it is the commandment of the LORD.

clean things and clean people who touch unclean things or people become unclean by them. the LORD says so, through Haggai.

the Jews did not eat with the Gentiles because the Gentiles were generally unclean, eating unclean meats, doing other things that made them unclean, and taking part in none of the commandments of the law for unclean people to become cleansed.
both the Law and the Prophets testify that they would become unclean by coming into contact with them.


before anyone just says 'Jewish customs' and dismiss everything without contemplation, 'because Jewish' -- i strongly suggest they study the scripture, and study Jewish thought & writings, asking, where did this originate, what scripture, and why?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,840
13,558
113
Does this nullify what Paul wrote in (Romans 2:6&7)?
See this is what many of you don't understand....One truth doesn't cancel out another Truth.
The teachings must be....reconciled. I will show you how...then you can do the same...using supporting scripture...not your theories.
what i don't understand is why every time someone affirms that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works, they are immediately accused of disobedience.

what i don't understand is how it is remotely possible you have actually read Romans yet think that salvation is by 'doing'
Romans 1-2 lay out that God punishes those who do wrong and rewards those who do good.
Romans 2-3 declares that no one does good, that all do evil, that no one can be justified before God by their works therefore even though God rewards goodness, no one is eligible for that. there is no such things as righteousness by obedient works among mankind.
Romans 4-5 shows that God has accounted faith as righteousness - from the beginning. that there is a nother righteousness greater than the unachievable righteousness of obedient works or good deeds.
Romans 6-8 teaches us that through faith in Christ we may enter into this righteousness, because of what He did giving His life for us. we die with Him, making us completely removed from the jurisdiction of the law - 10 commandments included - and we rise with Him, being renewed in Him and patiently waiting for that renewal to be completed, in the resurrection and regeneration of our bodies,.


how can you read this and think that salvation is by works??

and it is not "just by Romans" -- it is literally all over the entire NT.
how many scriptures do i need to give you?
i have been giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are familiar with the Word, not peppering you with dozens of quotes in every post.


but if i have to give you quote after quote after quote with context after context after context, i will -- even tho for me it is a time investment of hours, that i will take away from my family in order to show you -- and i work 60-70hrs a week right now, such that my family already sees very little of me -- so i have to ask you, is it worth my time or are you unwilling to hear so i would just be damaging my family by spending all that time writing you essay after essay after essay with citation after citation after citation?
i have gone down that road with people in the past and they immediately dismissed all my long effort, having no ears to hear, having no inclination to believe, being already stone-set in their religious traditions and private interpretations and only wanting to argue. barely even reading anything i wrote. not addressing any points i made. all my long hours, wasted. all my forsaking my loved ones, for nothing.


is it worth my time, Goliath?
or is all i need one smooth stone?


yes, reconcile Romans 2 with Romans 3-16.
by all means.
show us how it's all about works and willpower even tho it says over and over and over and over it's all about faith and what Christ did.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,840
13,558
113
To separate the "Works Of The Law" from the rest of the Law...AKA...The Ten Commandments.
if you say you are under the 10 commandments because they were commanded by the LORD, then you are also under Leviticus 5 and Haggai 2, because the same LORD also commanded and declared these things.
you touched something that someone who touched bacon touched. you need the ashes of the red heifer otherwise you are unclean.


we're under all the law or none of it. see Matthew 5:19, Galatians 5:3 & James 2:10
3 witnesses: Christ, Paul & James


What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.
(Romans 7:7)
scripture 100% incontrovertibly calls the ten commandments part of "the law" right there.

one smooth stone.
done.
QED.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,945
864
113
Have you ever thought, maybe your resentment comes from a Conviction of the Holy Spirit, when you hear the Truth?


Better than that, let's start a new record, "For all to see."

Do you believe what Jesus taught in (John 8), that Those who sin..do not have Eternal Life?
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.
(John 8:34-35)

Do you believe the Salvation teachings of Paul, where in (Romans 2), he taught the reward for those who do Good Works, will be....Eternal Life?
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
(Romans 2:6-7)


Do you believe what John taught in (1 John 3:9), where he taught those who are born of God do not sin?
Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not do what is righteous, is not of God, neither is he that does not love his brother.
(1 John 3:9-10)


Need I continue?
A nice selection of verses with the noticeable absence of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:1-2
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

After you lock in the gospel of Jesus Christ, then you can proceed with your good works.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,159
29,462
113
Couldn't be MORE WRONG. It is YOU who disagree with Jesus.
He told us in CLEAR WORDS that recipients of eternal life shall NEVER perish.
Jesus told us why. He gives believers eternal life (John 5:24) and therefore recipients of eternal life shall NEVER perish. Jn 10:28
Because He gives them eternal life and they shall never perish. Why don't YOU believe Him?

1 John 10:27-28

1 John 5:11-13 + John 6:47
:)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,159
29,462
113

John 17:2-3~ You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You
have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent.

:)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,159
29,462
113
what i don't understand is why every time someone affirms that we are saved by
grace through faith, not of works, they are immediately accused of disobedience.
It is Satan's job to accuse the brethren.

"He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth
in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
 
Nov 26, 2021
1,125
545
113
India
Yep, actually I know I still tempted to be greedy I still pray that Jesus in me help me free from my selfishness, and every time I remember Matt 25 I pray, Jesus go e me power to free from my greed attitude

I remember when I was 9 years old, I was cry because my toy brooked
in high school I found my broken toy and laugh
why I was cry for that toy
our belonging on earth was nothing compare what we get in heaven, like toy
we hold on our toy to lose real heavenly property
we act like child
Yes, brother, we all need to pray and work, both for ourselves and for our brothers and sisters in Christ, that we may grow in the love of God, and overcome our greed etc. It is God's Will that we be sanctified wholly in body, soul and spirit, that we may be prepared to give a glorious reception to Our Lord Jesus Christ at His Coming: "19Do not quench the Spirit. 20Do not despise prophecies. 21Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22Abstain from every form of evil.

Blessing and Admonition
23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it." (1 Thess 5)

A helpful article about those, surrendering to God's Grace, overcome and are crowned in Heaven: https://activechristianity.org/eternal-promises-for-those-who-overcome

"
Eternal promises for those who overcome
The reward of living an overcoming life is indescribable.


5 min · Ann Steiner

When the apostle John experienced the revelation on the Isle of Patmos, Jesus gave him messages to send to seven churches. Each of those messages concludes with a promise of the reward for those who overcome. Glorious promises that we, with our human understanding and perception, can’t fully comprehend.
It’s so important for us to focus on the reward that belongs to those who overcome in order to really get a vision for what it is that we are living for; why it’s worthwhile for us to live a disciple life. So that when we are in those situations where we feel we are “hard-pressed on every side;” (read 2 Corinthians 4:8-11) when we feel like we are “grieved by various trials,” (1 Peter 1:6) then we can actually rejoice!
“For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” Romans 8:18.
He who overcomes
To name just a few of the promises that Jesus gives in Revelation:
“To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” Revelation 2:7.
Eternal life with the Father and the Son!
“He who overcomes … I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.” Revelation 3:12.
The New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ (Revelation 21:2,9-11). By writing on us the name of God, the name of the New Jerusalem, and His own new name, Jesus claims us as His own; it is an acknowledgement that we belong together with Him and His Father.
“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” Revelation 3:21.
We will reign together with Jesus!
“He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he shall be My son.” Revelation 21:6-7.
Continue reading below ↓
Like what you’re reading?
Learn more about ActiveChristianity, or explore our theme pages for more
Bible verse collections


Self-image


Christianity in practice


Overcoming sin


A heavenly vision
Our eyes are turned from valuing earthly things, because we have something so much greater to look forward to. When we really believe in the glory of the reward that awaits genuine, tested faithfulness, we are filled with a spirit of expectation. Then we experience that our kingdom is truly not of this world. (John 18:36) Our life is lived in righteousness, eagerly looking forward to the day when we are united with Jesus, and we receive our eternal reward.
And “reward” is not a strong enough word for what we will experience there in eternity. You could probably search languages the world over to find a word to describe how great it will be, and never find one that does it justice. When we believe in this it becomes easy to “count it all joy when you fall into various trials.” James 1:2. Think what the end result will be!
“All our tribulation is but short and light, my friend. Glory upon glory in return the Lord will send. We’ll receive abundantly.” (from the songbook “Ways of the Lord” #179)
How to be an overcomer
What is it that we need to overcome? Sin; the lusts of the flesh, as Paul talks about in Galatians 5:24. “And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” And how are we to do this? Just like Jesus did when He was on earth.
“Seeing then that we have a High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrews 4:14-16.
Jesus overcame when tempted to sin, and so can we, by going to the throne of grace and crying out in prayer when we are in need. Then we will get the mercy, grace, and help to resist sin; to overcome. Then we will get content in our lives that we will take with us into eternity.
Eternal life
What all of these promises add up to is a rich eternity. Eternal life in which there is no sin, no temptation. We will experience nothing but goodness, peace, love, joy; all of the fruits of the Spirit which we already begin to taste while on earth. (Galatians 5:22-25) We will be together with all of those have been overcomers, forever in an eternity that we can’t even imagine.
“Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, ‘Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there will be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.’ Then He who sat on the throne said, ‘Behold, I make all things new.’” Revelation 21:2-5.
What a future we have before us – what a hope! Endure! Don’t give up! Fix your sights on the eternal! We have to actively be overcomers in our own lives. You know the prize you are fighting for, now go out and make yourself worthy of it."
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
How to be an overcomer
What is it that we need to overcome? Sin; the lusts of the flesh, as Paul talks about in Galatians 5:24. “And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” And how are we to do this? Just like Jesus did when He was on earth.
Do you think Jesus needed to "crucify the flesh"? That is a command to believers who ARE sinners. Jesus never sinned.

We CAN'T live a life like Jesus did. He was sinless. We are sinners. Jesus didn't "overcome" sin. When the Bible tells us to be more "Christ-like" it refers to our actions. Jesus perfectly demonstrated the fruit of the Spirit. But, lots of unbelievers can demonstrate some of these traits. So what's the difference? Demonstrating the traits from the power of the Holy Spirit, rather than from our human nature.

The human nature can only produce human good. It may look exactly like the good that comes from the power of the Spirit. But human good is very offensive to God. Isa 64:6 - All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags (literally - used menstral rags); we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit - Eph 5:18. Believers are commanded to walk by means of the Spirit - Gal 5:16. Believers are commanded to stop grieving the Spirit - Eph 4:30. Believers are commanded to stop quenching the Spirit - 1 Thess 5:19.

These 4 commands are REQUIRED to be understood and obeyed in order to be an overcomer. Far too many believers equate being filled with being indwelt by the Spirit. The Bible never commands believers to be indwelt with the Spirit. Because that is what God GIVES the believer.

Eternal life
What all of these promises add up to is a rich eternity. Eternal life in which there is no sin, no temptation. We will experience nothing but goodness, peace, love, joy; all of the fruits of the Spirit which we already begin to taste while on earth. (Galatians 5:22-25) We will be together with all of those have been overcomers, forever in an eternity that we can’t even imagine.
Except "all of these promises" add up to REWARD in eternity. That is what "rich" means in the Bible. All believers will be IN eternity.

But only REWARDED believers will have a "rich eternity". And too many believers think that changing their own behavior is what will get them IN eternity. They couldn't be more mistaken.

A rich eternity is for those believers who understand the 4 commands above and obey them consistently.

What a future we have before us – what a hope! Endure! Don’t give up! Fix your sights on the eternal!
No believer has to "fix their sights on the eternal" if that means getting to heaven. Heaven and eternity with God is GUARANTEED to every believer. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5

By "fixing our sights on the eternal" in the sense of glorifying God by producing the fruit of the Spirit by the POWER of the Spirit rather than our own human good that comes from our human nature, then we know that God will REWARD us.

We have to actively be overcomers in our own lives. You know the prize you are fighting for, now go out and make yourself worthy of it."
The "prize" isn't heaven, but REWARD in heaven.

By definition, rewards are EARNED.

By definition, gifts are NOT EARNED.

God's gifts, given on the basis of faith in Christ:
1. salvation
2. eternal life
3. Holy Spirit indwelling in the believer
4. spiritual gifts with which to serve God faithfully
 
Oct 6, 2021
496
83
28
the works of the law are all things in the law, including the 10 commandments, which aren't even the basis of the law. see Romans 7:7 -- the ten commandments are 100% part of the umbrella term "the law" - it is demonstrated.

so have a look at the law:


if a person touches any unclean thing, whether it is the carcass of an unclean beast, or the carcass of unclean livestock, or the carcass of unclean creeping things, and he is unaware of it, he also shall be unclean and guilty. Or if he touches human uncleanness — whatever uncleanness with which a man may be defiled, and he is unaware of it — when he realizes it, then he shall be guilty.
(Leviticus 5:2-3)
and have a look at the prophets:
On the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month, in the second year of Darius, the Word of the Lord came by Haggai the prophet, saying, “Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘Now, ask the priests concerning the law, saying, “If one carries holy meat in the fold of his garment, and with the edge he touches bread or stew, wine or oil, or any food, will it become holy?” ’
Then the priests answered and said, “No.”
And Haggai said, “If one who is unclean because of a dead body touches any of these, will it be unclean?
So the priests answered and said, “It shall be unclean.”
Then Haggai answered and said, “‘So is this people, and so is this nation before Me,’ says the Lord, ‘and so is every work of their hands; and what they offer there is unclean."
(Haggai 2:10-14)


Talmudic customs, even if misguided, did not appear out of thin air.
they are always based in the scripture.
people who touch and eat unclean things are unclean -- Leviticus says so. it is the commandment of the LORD.

clean things and clean people who touch unclean things or people become unclean by them. the LORD says so, through Haggai.

the Jews did not eat with the Gentiles because the Gentiles were generally unclean, eating unclean meats, doing other things that made them unclean, and taking part in none of the commandments of the law for unclean people to become cleansed.
both the Law and the Prophets testify that they would become unclean by coming into contact with them.


before anyone just says 'Jewish customs' and dismiss everything without contemplation, 'because Jewish' -- i strongly suggest they study the scripture, and study Jewish thought & writings, asking, where did this originate, what scripture, and why?
But they weren't written in stone...were they?
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
You’re right salvation is a gift of God, but there are requirements to receive that gracious gift of salvation.

Can we agree that it is God’s will that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance? If yes then everyone would have been given faith by now according to God’s will, if faith was the gift.

Therefore, we have to work to believe in Jesus. This isn’t saying faith is a work of the law, but rather a striving, an effort on our part, that requires energy, and certainly some convincing.

Isn’t this message board proof that even Holy Spirit indwelt believers have difficulty believing various things in the Bible? Often it’s after much studying, praying, thinking, discussion, and work people finally understand anything.

The grip of church indoctrination into false teachings is firm, but not unbreakable. It requires uncomfortable honesty, humility, prayer, and self-reflection. It often won’t occur publicly because people can’t stand being wrong openly. That’s why there are very good reasons to receiving private rebukes and correction, but the nature of public forums doesn’t allow that.

Faith is an action on our part, but the salvation is a gift of God. According to Ephesians 2:8-10, we were not saved by works of the law, but rather saved as a gift of God because of our faith. Being freed from the law of Moses, we are now free to expend our effort on doing the good works that we were created for.
 
Oct 6, 2021
496
83
28
what i don't understand is why every time someone affirms that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works, they are immediately accused of disobedience.

I don't accuse you of anything, but ignorance, ignorance not because your stupid, ignorance because of your lack of experience....with the Holy Spirit. It's very easy for men to follow the doctrines of man, because we grow up relying on the teachers, and we grow to trust in what they teach.

how can you read this and think that salvation is by works??
And it is not "just by Romans" -- it is literally all over the entire NT.
how many scriptures do i need to give you?

Really...All over?
The teachings of "Not by Works but By Grace", are only being addressed to the Church in Rome and the one in Galatia.
Why didn't Paul address the others about this false teaching?
Because they didn't have teachers, those old respected teachers, teachers who taught the Law of Moses, (Pharisees & Priests)....teaching in those churches.



is it worth my time, Goliath? [
/QUOTE]
Brother I have experienced what I teach...So if you hope is to convert me, not going to happen.
You and many others have experienced Gods Grace, in one way or another, even though you don't seem to know you did something he wanted you to do.... in order to have that experience. The one experience of Gods Grace you do not have, is being Born of God.
How do I know this?
Because you could never teach what you do, if you had been born of God. This is why you refute or change what is clearly written in (1 John 3:9-10). The experience is exactly as John wrote it, and I hope someday you will find that out through your own experience.
 
Oct 6, 2021
496
83
28
if you say you are under the 10 commandments because they were commanded by the LORD, then you are also under Leviticus 5 and Haggai 2, because the same LORD also commanded and declared these things.
you touched something that someone who touched bacon touched. you need the ashes of the red heifer otherwise you are unclean.


we're under all the law or none of it. see Matthew 5:19, Galatians 5:3 & James 2:10
3 witnesses: Christ, Paul & James


What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.
(Romans 7:7)
scripture 100% incontrovertibly calls the ten commandments part of "the law" right there.

one smooth stone.
done.
QED.
Again...these were not written in stone...Were They?
 
Oct 6, 2021
496
83
28
Post...I do not want you to waste time on me. You are obviously a man of discovery,...as am I.
So brother.....discover something of worth.
I write this for everyone here....who wants to understand.
Notice the Seven Churches the Lord Addresses in (Revelation 2&3).
Notice.....Jesus doesn't even mention the church in Rome. A church many of you have founded your entire doctrine on, when Jesus.... Didn't even waste his time addressing them to John.
Why do you all think that is?
Also notice, Jesus does not address any of the Churches, Paul addresses in his Epistles,....except one.
Which one...and why does he only address one of the Seven?

Now with this knowledge...if you were going to found your entire belief system, on one of the Churches Paul Addresses in his Epistles, don't you think it would be wise....to use one of the Seven Churches Jesus named?
Read about the church in Ephesus.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
Post...I do not want you to waste time on me. You are obviously a man of discovery,...as am I.
So brother.....discover something of worth.
I write this for everyone here....who wants to understand.
Notice the Seven Churches the Lord Addresses in (Revelation 2&3).
Notice.....Jesus doesn't even mention the church in Rome. A church many of you have founded your entire doctrine on, when Jesus.... Didn't even waste his time addressing them to John.
Why do you all think that is?
Also notice, Jesus does not address any of the Churches, Paul addresses in his Epistles,....except one.
Which one...and why does he only address one of the Seven?

Now with this knowledge...if you were going to found your entire belief system, on one of the Churches Paul Addresses in his Epistles, don't you think it would be wise....to use one of the Seven Churches Jesus named?
Read about the church in Ephesus.
I want to understand so thank you for sharing that.
 
Oct 6, 2021
496
83
28
I want to understand so thank you for sharing that.
Notice how the letter to the Ephesians...is written to the Gentile believer...not the Jews.
But when you read Romans...This letter is written to the Jewish believers, not the Gentiles.
This is why Romans is very hard to understand, because you are reading a letter not meant for many of us to read. And yet...the mainstream Church, has founded their entire belief system on it.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,945
864
113
Notice how the letter to the Ephesians...is written to the Gentile believer...not the Jews.
But when you read Romans...This letter is written to the Jewish believers, not the Gentiles.
This is why Romans is very hard to understand, because you are reading a letter not meant for many of us to read. And yet...the mainstream Church, has founded their entire belief system on it.
Correct and well done.

The letter to the Romans is one very confusing letter for most folk, unfortunately. I don't think many folk understand the letter to the Romans. So we have numerous church organizations that quote from Romans. To support their doctrinal statements but ignore the wider context, that alters the meaning and application of those chosen verses.

It is hard to believe that well into the twenty first century, we can have one letter in the New Testament. That very few churches understand, even though we are so well educated these days.

What is the real problem with the letter to the Romans?
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,945
864
113
Notice how the letter to the Ephesians...is written to the Gentile believer...not the Jews.
But when you read Romans...This letter is written to the Jewish believers, not the Gentiles.
This is why Romans is very hard to understand, because you are reading a letter not meant for many of us to read. And yet...the mainstream Church, has founded their entire belief system on it.
Churches put themselves under the law because they misunderstood Paul's argument in Romans. The damage has been profound within historical Christianity.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
Notice how the letter to the Ephesians...is written to the Gentile believer...not the Jews.
But when you read Romans...This letter is written to the Jewish believers, not the Gentiles.
This is why Romans is very hard to understand, because you are reading a letter not meant for many of us to read. And yet...the mainstream Church, has founded their entire belief system on it.
That’s interesting you mention about who Romans was written to because lately, as of yesterday or the day before I think, I suddenly noticed that the audience in Romans did not seem to be Gentiles, but rather Jews. Though I do think there were probably some Gentiles, too, but who knows for sure.

I firmly believe that who a letter is addressed to changes the delivery and reception of it. Such as Hebrews for example.

Paul’s letter to the Romans seems to have broken with his mission to the gentiles, so he didn’t have apostolic authority in Rome, nor did he like building a foundation where others had already built. Paul was going to go to Spain, through Rome, in order to church plant.