And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

Pilgrimshope · Jul 21, 2022

I don’t think I am I think I’m just acknolwedgong what it clearly says look at the consistency start here though

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-32, 34, 41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see how this begins to shape a message about eternity and what comes from Christs judgement ? Sure it’s not completely clear yet but then you add more to tag message from other scriptire

so Jesus is absolutely saying here one group will inherit the eternal kingdom preached in the gospel me another group will be cast into true lake of fire and eternally punished that’s just what it says right ?

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

so already we can say the lake of fire is eternal and it’s made for Satan and his angels be those who follow him we can agree there ? I’m meankng that’s what’s there and we can agree on that ?

if so we can then gather more Information but it going to lead to the same conclusion jesusnis setting the foundation for there an eternal kingdom of his and an eternal home for all evil.

the only real
Mystery is do they eventually disappear as if they never existed ? Or donthey never get any rest and do they get tormented in the flames before the angels like it says ? Does the smoke of thier torment rise forever ? And how does one understand that phrase ?

surely we know the fire is eternal the place is eternal the question would be is a soul eternal after it parts the flesh ?

I think honestly you are over thinking and anylyzing it try making the scriptures conclude d I bet you come to rhe conclusion I have

Amanuensis · Jul 21, 2022

kleronomos said:

This discussion has centuries of history behind it. The annihilationist view is the favored view of Christian sub cults like the Jehovah Witnesses, and Seventh Day Adventist, but they did not invent this view.

In the academic presentations to present a scholarly defense of their interpretation of these texts throughout the centuries (in other words "Going Deeper" as you propose) you will discover that the annihilationist view is far weaker and this is why the majority of evangelicals have made an educated decision from research and study of the scripture, to believe that all of the scriptures on the subject support an eternal punishment idea.

Jesus brought the most revelation about this than anyone else. Jesus taught a lot about hell and eternal punishment.

I don't think anyone who educates themselves on all of the related texts on this subject would feel like they had been lied to because the majority view is that of eternal punishment. I think they would not be upset. They would realize that it is the strongest interpretation and the annihilationist view is the weaker. Nothing to be mad about.

Lucy-Pevensie · Jul 21, 2022

Runningman said:

I didn't say OT scriptures weren't quoted. I said the opposite. You seem to be disrespecting their value
There are many latter days prophecies relating to the return of Messiah Jesus. It doesn't matter how long ago they were made.
Edom is named several times relating to Messiah Jesus. He is seen there fighting his enemies at his return.
Latter days, The Day of The Lord, (Yom Hahu) "in that day" all terms referring to the end of the age.

Lucy-Pevensie · Jul 21, 2022

Runningman said:

Where would your spirit have gone if it wasn't born again? Do you really think it would have simply ceased to be?

Pilgrimshope · Jul 21, 2022

Amanuensis said:

I agree beginning with Jesus and his teachkngs regarding the kingdom eternity begins to be spoken forth so we can know a glimpse and basic understanding of what’s next after we part the flesh of this world.

Paul actually taught a ton about the eternal Kingdom of God and eternal punishment also. Because of course paul was a witness of the gospel of the lord.

really there are scriptures which can support either view but much much more is there and much clearer to make plain really that there’s an eternal place after we die it’s not the end but good spends eternity in one place and evil in a seperated other place whether it’s this image of tbat terrible place seperate d from the kingdom

“Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this image

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:41-43‬ ‭

this image of it

“Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:34, 41, 46‬

this image of that place

“And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭66:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this one

“And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:45-46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this image of tbat place

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

..and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:11-15‬ ‭

even the wicked will be raised up to life

“and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:29

There’s a lot more but the consistent message he has always been the same message weeping and gnashing of teeth , torment , no rest for the wicked day or night , tribulation and anguish , wrath intended for Satan and his demons but they have chosen to partake by serving Satan in the earth and so they inherit the kingdom of thier father the devil filled with for torment and darkness

“And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems Satan and his servants have an eternal home

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭19:20‬ ‭

“If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:9-11‬ ‭

so what Jesus said here sums it up

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:”

some cannot hear it yet I’ve learned as plain and straight forward as it is it’s a really hard thing to accept some wonder if everything eventually ends

Runningman · Jul 21, 2022

Amanuensis said:

This discussion has centuries of history behind it. The annihilationist view is the favored view of Christian sub cults like the Jehovah Witnesses, and Seventh Day Adventist, but they did not invent this view.

In the academic presentations to present a scholarly defense of their interpretation of these texts throughout the centuries (in other words "Going Deeper" as you propose) you will discover that the annihilationist view is far weaker and this is why the majority of evangelicals have made an educated decision from research and study of the scripture, to believe that all of the scriptures on the subject support an eternal punishment idea.

Jesus brought the most revelation about this than anyone else. Jesus taught a lot about hell and eternal punishment.

I don't think anyone who educates themselves on all of the related texts on this subject would feel like they had been lied to because the majority view is that of eternal punishment. I think they would not be upset. They would realize that it is the strongest interpretation and the annihilationist view is the weaker. Nothing to be mad about.

Before I ask the a different question, did you study what the early church was teaching? It just the New Testament church, but after that. They had sometimes to say regarding eternal torment.

Runningman · Jul 21, 2022

Lucy-Pevensie said:

Okay maybe we aren’t on the same page here. What about the word “recycling”’is disparaging? Obviously I didn’t mean that in a derogatory way so from my perspective I’m a bit taken aback. What I meant is that the phrase was reused and I provided proof for that. Not sure what the problem is here.

Runningman · Jul 21, 2022

Lucy-Pevensie said:

Your turn. Can the spirit die? How is it possible to be born again of the Holy Spirit if the spirit can't die?

Lucy-Pevensie · Jul 21, 2022

Runningman said:

I apologise if I've taken your comment the wrong way. Perhaps I was a bit abrupt.
That wasn't even the main subject of this thread so I won't press it any further.

Runningman · Jul 21, 2022

Lucy-Pevensie said:

It’s cool 😊 many people take my comments the wrong way. I assume you that in my heart I mean the uttermost respect to God and everyone here

Runningman · Jul 21, 2022

Thumbs ups, agreement badges, happy faces, etc don’t really mean anything. What matters are verse and what they say exactly.

oyster67 · Jul 21, 2022

No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

Not true.

Revelation 20:15
“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Revelation 14:11
“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Lucy-Pevensie · Jul 21, 2022

Runningman said:

We may have reached this point of contention before.
You see mere cognizance as still being alive ?
I don't think that's what spirit life is.

My example below is for an illustrative purpose only. I know these are not human spirits.

Do you remember Matthew 8 when the demonic spirits asked Jesus if he was there to torture them before their time?
They asked him to drive them into the herd of pigs instead and he agreed. I know they were demons not human but they
were spirits & they weren't afraid Jesus would kill them. They were afraid of being tormented.

Satan wasn't annihilated either, he was restricted & one day he will be locked up & ultimately cast into the LOF with the
beast & false prophet (who are human). It's a death but I don't think they lose awareness.

There is only one scripture that has ever lead me to believe that spirits may at some point, cease to exist.
I don't think we can build a doctrine on one verse though.

It's not a hill I would die on (no pun) but I don't think spirits die in the same respect that mortal bodies do.
Damnation is a form of death in the spiritual sense but not an annihilation of being.

Amanuensis · Jul 21, 2022

Runningman said:

I don't understand that question.
Anything that Jesus taught is what the Early Church taught.

Unless you are talking about quotes from some of the oldest writings left by Christians mislabeled as "Early Church Fathers" but should be called "Early Church Writers" because they are not authoritative, and do not represent what the majority of the Early Church taught. A case can be made to prove that by referencing other historical documents from the same time as the particular writer. Just because they wrote something does not mean that it is what the majority of Christians believed at that time.

Funkus · Jul 21, 2022

Matthew and Revelation are like 95% of the hell references in the NT.
But we're so used to being told the scripture is all the same or one word in one piece automatically means its in the others even if its not there. i don't think thats a good way to explore scripture and find out the truth

Runningman · Jul 21, 2022

Amanuensis said:

The early church fathers outside of the ones in the New Testament, or writers if you prefer, are representative of the kind of teachings that were being taught in their period.

Conditional immortality (or annihilationism) was taught by Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement, Hermas, Polycarp, and others. They taught that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed forever as if by fire, but did not teach there is an immortal soul that would be tortured in fire for eternity.

Based on my research, the idea of hell being a place of eternal torment didn’t come around until the 2nd century /!; was introduced because of Plato’s philosophy of an immortal soul this introducing the possibility of eternal torment.

Jesus didn’t teach eternal torment nor did any of the apostles. The Bible doesn’t say the soul is immortal.

Amanuensis · Jul 22, 2022

Runningman said:

I don't think that philosophical or theological reasoning on the nature of the human soul is what Jesus taught about and I have never felt the need to discuss that.

I simply believe Jesus straight forward words and those of the writers of the New Testament were about eternal punishment and eternal torment for the wicked dead.

Exactly how that can be explained while calling them spiritually dead is a deep subject but in the end thy suffer for eternity. That is the wickedness of sin and what rebellion deserves especially in the light of the salvation and cost of salvation of Jesus Christ which probably explains why there was more revelation about it after Christ came than before.

I will preach eternal torment for the wicked and make sure that everyone is terrified at the future of the one who dies without Christ. There is no end to the torment of the unrepentant and if this is a point of stumbling for the natural mind or if they think it makes God to be too cruel it is because they themselves are so wicked still.

Diakonos · Jul 22, 2022

Runningman said:

I agree that different contexts can modify the meaning of the same word used in a different passage. So let's observe the same word used for both heaven and hell in a single context...in fact the same verse.

““These ("accursed ones") will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”” (Matthew 25:46)

Tell me what "eternal" means in this verse?

Runningman · Jul 22, 2022

Amanuensis said:

I believe His straightforward words too about how the soul and body can be destroyed in hell. I don't think God makes idle threats.

I don't see it as complicated. I think death means death and life means life. Someone is either one or the other.

Why would you preach eternal torment to wicked people when the Bible says otherwise? the Bible is unanimous on conditional immortality from Genesis to Revelation. There's nothing unclear or vague about God's stated intent to destroy the wicked or put them to death.

James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."

Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."

Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."

Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."

Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."

2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."

Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."

Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."

Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.

2 Chronicles 28:3
"He burned incense in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel." (the Valley of Ben Hinnom is where the concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from)

Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"

Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)

2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."

2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"

Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

Runningman · Jul 22, 2022

Diakonos said:

In this context I believe Matthew 25:46 means literally forever. The righteous live forever and the unrighteous don't live forever.

Life without end:
John 10:28-30
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.

Death with no end:
Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

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