For those that love the Lord

[awelight]

For those that love the Lord

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The Lord has given us commands, if you love the Lord keep those commands. Today we have people telling us we can ignore those commands. This thread is not for those who think we can tell others to ignore Jesus' commands.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

These are the two commands in particular. The context of watch is the Lord's second coming. We are commanded to be watching for the signs, to know the prophecies, to be alert for what is coming. Instead many use the expression "no one knows the day or the hour" as though that absolves them of having to keep this command. If you were assigned to the defense of the nation to guard our air space from foreign airplanes and missiles I would not be very happy with you if your attitude was "hey, no one knows the day or the hour" as an excuse for not watching. Yes, we know that, that is why we have you on the wall watching. The second command is to pray always that you may be accounted worthy to escape. Today we have these teachers saying "once saved always saved" nullifying the Lord's command here. There is no need to pray always that you might be worthy to escape because if you were saved once then that is it, you have a lifetime pass to the amusement park.

Mark 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. 34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Who is the porter that is commanded to watch? Well Jesus was talking to the 12 apostles, so they are obviously the porter. But then He concludes "what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch". He commanded the 12 apostles to watch and then He said that same command applies to all believers.

1Corinthians 16:13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

While we are watching we will see some scary things. We will see millions of coffins being readied, we will see guillotines being purchased, we will see 87,000 IRS agents being hired to use guns and deadly force, we will see sorcerers deceiving the whole world with a kill shot, and we will see war, famine, and plagues coming upon this earth. So we don't simply watch, we stand fast in the faith and we behave like men. Be strong. We are on a ship heading into a monstrous storm.

1Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

People who are not watching are either sleeping or are not sober. If you are drunk on the worldly wine you cannot watch. If you make a giant salary from Pfizer it is very hard to watch. On the other hand if you have been lulled to sleep with the world's lullabye, all the banal, useless media they blast constantly until you fall asleep, then you too can't watch.

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

What? Only those who are not watching are the ones who won't know what hour the Lord is coming? How can that be? Suppose I was going on a trip to Asia and you ask when will you return. I say I don't know the day or the hour, but I'll let you know. A few months later you get a message that I bought a ticket for a plane that arrives in two weeks. The New Testament is very clear on this. Two thousand years ago there was no prophecy that would tell us the day or the hour, however, if we are watching we will have a heads up prior to the Lord's coming.

Your post is well constructed but it does lean heavily towards the "social gospel".

Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of the post - is your willingness to bash the concept of "once saved always saved". In one swing of the proverbial literary axe, you attempted to deny God's Sovereignty, His Omnipotence and His Omniscience, along with many other passages of Scripture. You see verses, that seem to teach the possibility of believers failure to persevere and think that God cannot ensure, that His Elect, will persevere. Because the Elect are OSAS, is the reason why Scripture warns them to be sober and ever watchful. Having the knowledge that our Lord will carry us all the way - it could cause one to be complacent. This should not be! Religionist will not persevere but God's Elect will.

This is why the names of God's Elect were written in the Book of Life, before the foundation of the world because there is no shadow of doubt about it's completion. It is the Father's Plan and He is Sovereign over it. The Lord, Jesus Christ, says He will "lose nothing" and being Omnipotent, who or what is going to prevent it? The Holy Spirit has sealed everyone of God's Elect, who or what can break that seal?

It is sad, that you do not have the blessing of this marvelous truth.

 

[JesusLives]

Revelation 14:12

“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”

 

[ZNP]

Your post is well constructed but it does lean heavily towards the "social gospel".

Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of the post - is your willingness to bash the concept of "once saved always saved". In one swing of the proverbial literary axe, you attempted to deny God's Sovereignty, His Omnipotence and His Omniscience, along with many other passages of Scripture. You see verses, that seem to teach the possibility of believers failure to persevere and think that God cannot ensure, that His Elect, will persevere. Because the Elect are OSAS, is the reason why Scripture warns them to be sober and ever watchful. Having the knowledge that our Lord will carry us all the way - it could cause one to be complacent. This should not be! Religionist will not persevere but God's Elect will.

The doctrine of Once Saved always saved is what I was raised on and for the most part accepted my whole life. I have a brethren background that was heavily influenced by Darby and Watchman Nee. That said, the FreeMasons have corrupted the doctrine of OSAS and it is the cornerstone of the apostasy.

Now anyone who has read the Bible a few times will realize the doctrine cannot simply be "once saved always saved". Wouldn't explain Paul's word about working out our salvation with fear and trembling. Wouldn't explain Paul's word about being saved but so as through fire with all your works of wood, hay and stubble being burned up. It would not explain Jame's word concerning faith without works is dead. Nor would it explain the Lord's word to Philadelphia to keep them out of the hour of trial that will come on the whole earth. What about the other six churches? So I now view this doctrine of "once saved always saved" as untempered steel. It is a like a sword that can very easily be dinged up real bad.

This is why the names of God's Elect were written in the Book of Life, before the foundation of the world because there is no shadow of doubt about it's completion.

If they were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world then it did not take place at the time of your salvation. That doesn't support "OSAS". Nor does Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

So if the Lord can blot names out of the book of life, how does that fit with your "OSAS" doctrine?

I am looking for a doctrine that all the verses fit with, not just the hand picked ones.

It is the Father's Plan and He is Sovereign over it. The Lord, Jesus Christ, says He will "lose nothing" and being Omnipotent, who or what is going to prevent it? The Holy Spirit has sealed everyone of God's Elect, who or what can break that seal?

It is sad, that you do not have the blessing of this marvelous truth.

I have the blessing of the Lord's marvelous word. Our salvation is a contract, a legal document. In any legal document there are requirements on both sides, if you fail in your obligations the contract can be nullified.

Can Satan nullify the contract? No.

Can any demon or fallen angel nullify the contract? No.

Can you, who signed it and are a party to it, nullify it? Yes.

When the Bible says no one can take you out of the Father's hand it is not talking about your own decision.

If your doctrine were true, why would the book of Revelation have to warn believers not to take the mark of the beast or else they will lose their salvation?

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Revelation 14:9-10 (NASB)

The only way that OSAS explains this is with circular logic.

There are so many verses that it has to explain away. Consider

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

This verse seems to clearly be referring to born again believers, so how according to OSAS could they be in danger of hell fire?

Or how about this?

1Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

How could Korah going down to hell alive be written for our admonition if it is once saved always saved?

Or how about this?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

This is what I shared. You have to do the will of the Father which is in heaven

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Obviously these were people who considered themselves to be saved and born again.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You can't go out and do a work for the Lord according to your own opinion and in your flesh. He has to be in you, the one who is Lord of your life, the one where there is a daily communion.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

The problem with "OSAS" is they give people the impression that it is once for all and you can ignore the Lord's word and don't have to do what He says after your "salvation experience".

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

OSAS is a foundational teaching which is sand. In other words you have to shift and contort every verse that comes along that doesn't align with it.

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

When the rapture takes place and people are left behind, that is when their entire ministry will fall and the fall of it will be great. All the "biggest" and "best funded" ministries are "OSAS".

 

[ZNP]

Once Saved Always Saved -- Key Bible Verses

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

This verse has been distorted. What it says is that our Shepherd is far greater than any man, and God the Father is greater than all. If you hear the Lord's voice and follow Him you will be safe, even if He leads you through the valley of the shadow of death.

It doesn't mean that as a Sheep I can do whatever I wish and go wherever I wish because I will always be saved. This promise is only to those who are following the Shepherd at that moment. Did Jesus lead you into that movie theater?

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Do not be deceived. FreeMasons teach "OSAS" to indicate that you don't have to worry about sinning willfully. They ignore the Lord's word.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire

What I am saying is what Peter says here. The only way that "OSAS" can explain away this is so convoluted as to make your head spin and wonder if you are speaking the same language.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I agree with this verse. God did do His part, Jesus did do His part. If their half of the bargain was to give His only begotten son, then what is our half of the bargain?

1Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

If Paul was not "once saved always saved" how can anyone else think that they could be?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned

This is my point. I want to be blessed with the entire Bible, every word. How many words do you have to distort, twist, ignore or give some bizarre interpretation to in order to keep your "OSAS" doctrine?

2Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

When you received the Lord you believed and were baptized. You were saved at that point. But that doesn't mean you have made your calling and election sure. You have to give diligence daily to do that.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

This is where the rubber meets the road. I once talked to a "brother" who was in fornication. He said he was baptized, so why do I treat him as an unbeliever? I told him he is in fornication, people who do that will not inherit the kingdom of God. It is better that I treat you as an unbeliever than as a believer who has turned back to the world.

If you teach this in the world, they will hate you.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

That is why all these mega churches teach "OSAS". They don't want to be hated. They think having a congregation of five thousand people and a big TV ministry will impress the Lord. They built their house on sand and the fall of it will be great.

 

[ZNP]

The book of life is the eternal list of truth lovers.

2Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

This makes sense of Revelation 3:3-5

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Why was their name blotted out? First, it was in the book of life because years ago they did have the love of the truth but somehow they have forgotten that. So unless they repent and return to when they did have a love of the truth their name will be blotted out.

 

[ZNP]

Joel 3 -- Behold that time

3 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

So yes, we have had several pandemics in the past, perhaps not like Covid19, but without a doubt it isn't the first pandemic. However, Joel makes it clear he is talking about the time when Israel is returned to the Jews. So we can ignore the Spanish flu and the Bubonic plague, no we are focused on the time period after 1948. But Joel doesn't stop there, God will also, after bringing back the captivity deal with the fact that Israel is divided and will give Jerusalem back to Israel. So Joel is quite specific, the extraordinary "insect army" he is talking about comes after the Jews return to Israel (1948) and regain control of Israel (1967) and after He pleads for the heritage of Israel (God pleaded that the nations would recognize that Jerusalem belongs to Israel which the US finally did in 2017). Pretty extraordinary, Joel is talking about a worldwide shutdown of the economy, particularly of restaurants, gatherings, church services and celebrations, this is due to an "insect army" that is too numerable to count, and it takes place after 2017 when the US recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. All the believers were supposed to see the Pandemic in 2020, be woken up from sleep, sober up, pray and proclaim that the day of the Lord is at hand.

3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

The day of the Lord is the Lord's judgement on the sinful world and what is preeminent of those sins? Human trafficking, Epstein island, the Kazarian mafia in Ukraine, Moloch and Baal worshippers, Biden's open border, these are the sins that we will be held to make account of.

4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;
5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:
6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.
7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:
8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it.

This is the judgement that God has proclaimed. We may not know or be fully aware of all the sins he is referring to but you can be sure the deep state, the Moloch and Baal worshippers, and all the various cartels involved are aware.

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord. 12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

Whoa, so after this pandemic in 2020 the next thing we will see is all the nations prepared for war and the focus will be on the Moloch and Baal worshippers who are centered in Kazakstan and Ukraine? OK, and then after that they will be drawn down to the valley of Jehoshaphat near Jerusalem. So it sounds like the Ezekiel 38 war does take place next.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

This is the end of the age, we have already been told that "the day of the Lord is near" and the end of the age is a harvest. We are always looking for the rapture which is the harvest, but here Joel is talking about the harvest of the wicked. Remember, the Lord said first the angels would gather up the tares into bundles to be burned. These big armies that are being gathered in Ukraine and ultimately in Israel are being gathered to be burned.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

A lot of amazing earth shaking things are about to happen like the rapture, the dead in Christ rising, etc. Did you ever think of the tribulation as "the valley of decision"? Who will you serve, Jesus or the Antichrist. That is what it all boils down to.

17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

The purpose for Armageddon and the great tribulation is so that everyone will know that Jesus is the Lord God dwelling in Zion.

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

The millennial reign of Christ is going to be a wonderful time for the earth.

19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

The world's economy is Egypt and Edom is Hollywood. Egypt is not Jewish or Christian in flavor, it is secular. However, Hollywood is often claimed to be run by Jews, this is not true, they are Edomites. Edom is also the banking system. The Rothschilds, "red sign", are bankers who control the fiat currency.

20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the Lord dwelleth in Zion.

 

[ZNP]

Conclusion -- The amazing prophecies in Joel

1. An army that is innumerable will come, he describes it as an insect army, but this army will kill and devour like a lion. This army is like a thief sneaking into windows and climbing up walls, he sees people doing the social distancing marching six feet apart and no one is pushing on another. He says it will shut down the world's economy, it is God declaring a worldwide fast, and in particular it will shut down churches and schools, restaurants and public gatherings and celebrations. The description is exactly like the Pandemic we saw in 2020.

2. He says that this will come after the Jews return from captivity to Israel (1948) and after Jerusalem is returned to the Jews (1967) and after the US recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel (2017).

3. After the pandemic He will gather the nations to war because of the sin of child trafficking and moloch and Baal worship. The center for the cartels that specialize in human trafficking are in Kazakstan and Ukraine. So all the nations will be gathered to war there and then brought down to Jerusalem for the Ezekiel 38 war.

These events are designed to wake up those who are sleeping and sober up those who are drunk and the people of the Lord are supposed to proclaim that the day of the Lord is at hand and they are to prostrate themselves and pray to the Lord repenting for the sins and things that they should have done and have not done.

 

[ZNP]

The Age of Grace

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Noah in Hebrew means rest, but if you read it backwards it means grace. Noah was 600 when the flood came. Jesus said that the end of the age would be "as the days of Noah". So let's look at three of those days.

1. His birthday. Surprisingly the account in Genesis does not talk about his birth other than his genealogy. What it does say is that in those days man was completely focused on the flesh and they were mingled with fallen angels. It was an evil, demonic, fleshly time. If we go back 600 years from today that would be 1422. Can we see anything happening in 1422 that would indicate this evil, demonic world? Yes, 1422 is the year Count Dracula was born.

2. The day that Noah got the vision and blueprint that the age would end with a flood and he also got the plan on building an ark to save mankind and the animals alive. Again, Genesis doesn't tell us the year this took place but it does say that Noah had three sons at that time. If I were God and were going to give Noah the blueprint for this huge construction project I would want his youngest son to be at least 13, this way he would have a four man crew, probably the bare minimum necessary to do this job. Since there is no high school or college at that time you can assume that Noah was married early, and that the kids came one after another. So I am going to guesstimate that Noah was 20 when his youngest was born and 13 years later he is 33. This is obviously just a guess, but gives us a ballpark. If he was 600 when he entered the ark, subtract 33 and you get 567 years earlier he received this vision and blueprint. This is 1455, did anything happen around that time? Yes, the Gutenberg Bible was first published.

3. The day Noah began to preach. The Bible also says that Noah preached for 120 years. If the printing of the Bible so that everyone could read it started this "age of grace" then did anything significant for the preaching of this word happen 120 years ago? Again, yes, in 1899 Gideon's international was founded. This is a ministry to distribute Bible's free throughout the world, and since their founding they have distributed over 2 billion bibles, they are in 180 countries and have over 260,000 members. Hold on, 120 years after 1899 is 2019, according to the Bible, that is when the flood comes. What happened in 2019? That was when the Pandemic hit. The calendar at the time of Noah has the year starting on Rosh Hashanah in September, and going to the next September. The very first cases of Covid19 hit right after the new year began according to this calendar. (BTW if you are not aware Covid19 stands for Certificate of Vaccine ID, AI. The 19 stands for the first letter of the alphabet and the 9 stands for the 9th letter).

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

[awelight]

The doctrine of Once Saved always saved is what I was raised on and for the most part accepted my whole life. I have a brethren background that was heavily influenced by Darby and Watchman Nee. That said, the FreeMasons have corrupted the doctrine of OSAS and it is the cornerstone of the apostasy.

Now anyone who has read the Bible a few times will realize the doctrine cannot simply be "once saved always saved". Wouldn't explain Paul's word about working out our salvation with fear and trembling. Wouldn't explain Paul's word about being saved but so as through fire with all your works of wood, hay and stubble being burned up. It would not explain Jame's word concerning faith without works is dead. Nor would it explain the Lord's word to Philadelphia to keep them out of the hour of trial that will come on the whole earth. What about the other six churches? So I now view this doctrine of "once saved always saved" as untempered steel. It is a like a sword that can very easily be dinged up real bad.



If they were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world then it did not take place at the time of your salvation. That doesn't support "OSAS". Nor does Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

So if the Lord can blot names out of the book of life, how does that fit with your "OSAS" doctrine?

I am looking for a doctrine that all the verses fit with, not just the hand picked ones.



I have the blessing of the Lord's marvelous word. Our salvation is a contract, a legal document. In any legal document there are requirements on both sides, if you fail in your obligations the contract can be nullified.

Can Satan nullify the contract? No.

Can any demon or fallen angel nullify the contract? No.

Can you, who signed it and are a party to it, nullify it? Yes.

When the Bible says no one can take you out of the Father's hand it is not talking about your own decision.

If your doctrine were true, why would the book of Revelation have to warn believers not to take the mark of the beast or else they will lose their salvation?

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Revelation 14:9-10 (NASB)

The only way that OSAS explains this is with circular logic.

There are so many verses that it has to explain away. Consider

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

This verse seems to clearly be referring to born again believers, so how according to OSAS could they be in danger of hell fire?

Or how about this?

1Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

How could Korah going down to hell alive be written for our admonition if it is once saved always saved?

Or how about this?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

This is what I shared. You have to do the will of the Father which is in heaven

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Obviously these were people who considered themselves to be saved and born again.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You can't go out and do a work for the Lord according to your own opinion and in your flesh. He has to be in you, the one who is Lord of your life, the one where there is a daily communion.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

The problem with "OSAS" is they give people the impression that it is once for all and you can ignore the Lord's word and don't have to do what He says after your "salvation experience".

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

OSAS is a foundational teaching which is sand. In other words you have to shift and contort every verse that comes along that doesn't align with it.

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

When the rapture takes place and people are left behind, that is when their entire ministry will fall and the fall of it will be great. All the "biggest" and "best funded" ministries are "OSAS".

In the simplest terms, since you have obviously made up your mind, you are not making the distinction between the "unconditional" aspects of Salvation and the "conditional" aspects of Salvation. You are also, not making a distinction between what was laid down in "eternity" and what is "temporal".

The "unconditional" aspects of Salvation are those verses, such as, "That I should lose nothing" and "All that the Father has given to me, shall come to me and no one can snatch them from my hand.". These are God's promises and He will accomplish His purpose. The "conditional" aspects, are a warning to all who come into contact with the Gospel message. Therefore, one who hears the Gospel and rejects it, is classified as a fool. However, the key point of this is, that the "unconditional" promises of God cannot be abrogated by one lesser than the One who made it. The contract is between the Godhead and excludes man's will, since it was not made with man.

The "conditional" aspects of Salvation, are man's responsibility. The ones persevering to the end, are the ones under God's care. They have been Regenerated and sealed by the Holy Spirit. His Eternal Elect, chosen before the foundation of the world in Christ. Those that miss the mark, manifest to all, that they are the ones who were passed by in God's Elective purpose. The warnings are real and serious, however, apart from Regeneration, no one will leave his/her old nature and leave the ways of the world and hate themselves.

That which is laid down from "eternity", in the mind of God, is unchangeable because He is unchangeable. Therefore, His Eternal Purpose in Redemption, cannot and will not fail. That which is temporal, has a will and must make decisions, however, that which is temporal (Creation), has no ability to undermine that which is eternal. Whether that be God's Sovereignty or His Sovereign Plan.

If we follow your line of thinking, to it's ultimate conclusion, we would end up with this truth. (Which is not a truth at all) If one can lose their Salvation, once it has been applied, then that loss of Salvation would be the undoing of our Lord's statement, in John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that all that which he hath given (Perfect tense in the Greek language - proper translation of the verb: "has been given". Perfect tense, which means: Given in the past with continuing results.) me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. Thus, if someone could lose their Salvation, this understanding would be unacceptable because it would mean either our Lord didn't know what He was talking about or He was a liar. May it never be!!! The Lord Jesus Christ, is the Lord of Salvation and He is clear as to it's execution.

 

[awelight]

Once Saved Always Saved -- Key Bible Verses

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

This verse has been distorted. What it says is that our Shepherd is far greater than any man, and God the Father is greater than all. If you hear the Lord's voice and follow Him you will be safe, even if He leads you through the valley of the shadow of death.

It doesn't mean that as a Sheep I can do whatever I wish and go wherever I wish because I will always be saved. This promise is only to those who are following the Shepherd at that moment. Did Jesus lead you into that movie theater?

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Do not be deceived. FreeMasons teach "OSAS" to indicate that you don't have to worry about sinning willfully. They ignore the Lord's word.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire

What I am saying is what Peter says here. The only way that "OSAS" can explain away this is so convoluted as to make your head spin and wonder if you are speaking the same language.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I agree with this verse. God did do His part, Jesus did do His part. If their half of the bargain was to give His only begotten son, then what is our half of the bargain?

1Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

If Paul was not "once saved always saved" how can anyone else think that they could be?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned

This is my point. I want to be blessed with the entire Bible, every word. How many words do you have to distort, twist, ignore or give some bizarre interpretation to in order to keep your "OSAS" doctrine?

2Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

When you received the Lord you believed and were baptized. You were saved at that point. But that doesn't mean you have made your calling and election sure. You have to give diligence daily to do that.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

This is where the rubber meets the road. I once talked to a "brother" who was in fornication. He said he was baptized, so why do I treat him as an unbeliever? I told him he is in fornication, people who do that will not inherit the kingdom of God. It is better that I treat you as an unbeliever than as a believer who has turned back to the world.

If you teach this in the world, they will hate you.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

That is why all these mega churches teach "OSAS". They don't want to be hated. They think having a congregation of five thousand people and a big TV ministry will impress the Lord. They built their house on sand and the fall of it will be great.

I will take a couple of your points and give explanation.

First - you made this point: (Your quote in blue)

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

This verse has been distorted. What it says is that our Shepherd is far greater than any man, and God the Father is greater than all. If you hear the Lord's voice and follow Him you will be safe, even if He leads you through the valley of the shadow of death.

Three things here:
1) Verse 27, does not say "If the sheep hear my voice", as you suggested - It says the sheep hear my voice. It also says that Jesus, the Good Shepherd, knows them and they follow. This is an intimate knowledge - like lovers - it is equated to the intimacy the Son has with the Father. (see John 10:14&15).
2) Again, the Lord says no man can take them from His hand. A guarantee, that what God begins He will finish.
3) The Father is not greater than the Son in essence, ( see verse 30), but by agreed upon position. The three persons of the Godhead, were of one accord with their positions. It is the Father's Plan, the Son is it's Executor and the Holy Spirit ministers it.


Secondly - you stated:

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire

What I am saying is what Peter says here. The only way that "OSAS" can explain away this is so convoluted as to make your head spin and wonder if you are speaking the same language.

You say the explanation, by those who believe in OSAS, is so convoluted as to make your head spin - Not really, if they know what they are talking about.

This can be explained simply. Peter is not talking about God's Elect, He is talking about the non-elect. Notice the pronouns Peter is using - "they" and "them". He is not using "we" and "us". This then, is a description of one who responded to the "general call" of the Gospel. They became religious for a short while then apostatized. This same example can be found in the parables of the Sower. The seed did not fall on "good soil" and it lasted only for a short while before the cares of this world choked it out.

I think that is enough for now.

 

[ZNP]

In the simplest terms, since you have obviously made up your mind, you are not making the distinction between the "unconditional" aspects of Salvation and the "conditional" aspects of Salvation. You are also, not making a distinction between what was laid down in "eternity" and what is "temporal".

The "unconditional" aspects of Salvation are those verses, such as, "That I should lose nothing" and "All that the Father has given to me, shall come to me and no one can snatch them from my hand.". These are God's promises and He will accomplish His purpose. The "conditional" aspects, are a warning to all who come into contact with the Gospel message. Therefore, one who hears the Gospel and rejects it, is classified as a fool. However, the key point of this is, that the "unconditional" promises of God cannot be abrogated by one lesser than the One who made it. The contract is between the Godhead and excludes man's will, since it was not made with man.

Come on, this is what I mean, all these gyrations. Man must accept the gospel, they must believe it and they must be baptized. That means they must obey and keep their end of this bargain. Yes, the agreement was made by God, His Son paid the price all by Himself, but you have the free will to choose to accept the terms or reject them. So yes, man's will is definitely part of this legally binding contract between you and God.

The "conditional" aspects of Salvation, are man's responsibility. The ones persevering to the end, are the ones under God's care. They have been Regenerated and sealed by the Holy Spirit. His Eternal Elect, chosen before the foundation of the world in Christ. Those that miss the mark, manifest to all, that they are the ones who were passed by in God's Elective purpose. The warnings are real and serious, however, apart from Regeneration, no one will leave his/her old nature and leave the ways of the world and hate themselves.

There is no such legal contract where one party is held to unconditional and eternal requirements while the other party is not.

That which is laid down from "eternity", in the mind of God, is unchangeable because He is unchangeable. Therefore, His Eternal Purpose in Redemption, cannot and will not fail. That which is temporal, has a will and must make decisions, however, that which is temporal (Creation), has no ability to undermine that which is eternal. Whether that be God's Sovereignty or His Sovereign Plan.

If there is anyone else trying to follow the last few paragraphs of mumbo jumbo this is what they are saying. Yes, there are verses that go against our doctrine of "OSAS" but guess what they only apply to mortal man, and you are so puny that you cannot incur eternal consequences from your sinning, the only time you can get eternal consequences is if you receive the gospel. Hold it, wait, what?

If we follow your line of thinking, to it's ultimate conclusion, we would end up with this truth. (Which is not a truth at all) If one can lose their Salvation, once it has been applied, then that loss of Salvation would be the undoing of our Lord's statement, in John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that all that which he hath given (Perfect tense in the Greek language - proper translation of the verb: "has been given". Perfect tense, which means: Given in the past with continuing results.) me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. Thus, if someone could lose their Salvation, this understanding would be unacceptable because it would mean either our Lord didn't know what He was talking about or He was a liar. May it never be!!! The Lord Jesus Christ, is the Lord of Salvation and He is clear as to it's execution.

Pray tell how do you know that you are one that has been given to the Lord? We are told in the New Testament that the creator makes some vessels unto honor and some unto dishonor. We are also told that Paul was working out his salvation with fear and trembling. The Jews thought they had Abraham as their father, so they were safe and the Lord said no. Reuben thought that since Israel was his father he was safe, wrong again. Judas was one of the twelve disciples of the Lord, oops wrong again. The Bible is filled with examples. Korah was a priest, too bad. If we follow your line of thinking to its ultimate conclusion it would mean you are omniscient, hence just like God, who else wanted to be just like God? Oh yeah, Lucifer.

All these verses you hang your hat on show that God can hold up His end of the bargain and will hold it up. Doesn't mean you are not accountable for your end of the bargain.

 

[ZNP]

I will take a couple of your points and give explanation.

First - you made this point: (Your quote in blue)

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

This verse has been distorted. What it says is that our Shepherd is far greater than any man, and God the Father is greater than all. If you hear the Lord's voice and follow Him you will be safe, even if He leads you through the valley of the shadow of death.

Three things here:
1) Verse 27, does not say "If the sheep hear my voice", as you suggested - It says the sheep hear my voice. It also says that Jesus, the Good Shepherd, knows them and they follow. This is an intimate knowledge - like lovers - it is equated to the intimacy the Son has with the Father. (see John 10:14&15).
2) Again, the Lord says no man can take them from His hand. A guarantee, that what God begins He will finish.
3) The Father is not greater than the Son in essence, ( see verse 30), but by agreed upon position. The three persons of the Godhead, were of one accord with their positions. It is the Father's Plan, the Son is it's Executor and the Holy Spirit ministers it.


Secondly - you stated:

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire

What I am saying is what Peter says here. The only way that "OSAS" can explain away this is so convoluted as to make your head spin and wonder if you are speaking the same language.

You say the explanation, by those who believe in OSAS, is so convoluted as to make your head spin - Not really, if they know what they are talking about.

This can be explained simply. Peter is not talking about God's Elect, He is talking about the non-elect. Notice the pronouns Peter is using - "they" and "them". He is not using "we" and "us". This then, is a description of one who responded to the "general call" of the Gospel. They became religious for a short while then apostatized. This same example can be found in the parables of the Sower. The seed did not fall on "good soil" and it lasted only for a short while before the cares of this world choked it out.

I think that is enough for now.

They responded to the "general call" of the gospel. What is the "general call" rather than the specific call?

Oh, and we can find this in the parable of the sower. So this is referring to the ground where the weeds choked it out. Was the seed any different than the seed on the good ground? Nope. Did this seed sprout and grow? yep. Same plant? Yep. But they allowed the cares of this world to choke it out and so lost their salvation? Whatever happened to OSAS?

 

[awelight]

Come on, this is what I mean, all these gyrations. Man must accept the gospel, they must believe it and they must be baptized. That means they must obey and keep their end of this bargain. Yes, the agreement was made by God, His Son paid the price all by Himself, but you have the free will to choose to accept the terms or reject them. So yes, man's will is definitely part of this legally binding contract between you and God.



There is no such legal contract where one party is held to unconditional and eternal requirements while the other party is not.



If there is anyone else trying to follow the last few paragraphs of mumbo jumbo this is what they are saying. Yes, there are verses that go against our doctrine of "OSAS" but guess what they only apply to mortal man, and you are so puny that you cannot incur eternal consequences from your sinning, the only time you can get eternal consequences is if you receive the gospel. Hold it, wait, what?



Pray tell how do you know that you are one that has been given to the Lord? We are told in the New Testament that the creator makes some vessels unto honor and some unto dishonor. We are also told that Paul was working out his salvation with fear and trembling. The Jews thought they had Abraham as their father, so they were safe and the Lord said no. Reuben thought that since Israel was his father he was safe, wrong again. Judas was one of the twelve disciples of the Lord, oops wrong again. The Bible is filled with examples. Korah was a priest, too bad. If we follow your line of thinking to its ultimate conclusion it would mean you are omniscient, hence just like God, who else wanted to be just like God? Oh yeah, Lucifer.

All these verses you hang your hat on show that God can hold up His end of the bargain and will hold it up. Doesn't mean you are not accountable for your end of the bargain.

You did not answer the point I was making about the certainty of the Elect. Instead you just tried to muddy the water. In doing so, it would appear your thinking became murky. So I post it again:

If we follow your line of thinking, to it's ultimate conclusion, we would end up with this truth. (Which is not a truth at all) If one can lose their Salvation, once it has been applied, then that loss of Salvation would be the undoing of our Lord's statement, in John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that all that which he hath given (Perfect tense in the Greek language - proper translation of the verb: "has been given". Perfect tense, which means: Given in the past with continuing results.) me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. Thus, if someone could lose their Salvation, this understanding would be unacceptable because it would mean either our Lord didn't know what He was talking about or He was a liar. May it never be!!! The Lord Jesus Christ, is the Lord of Salvation and He is clear as to it's execution.

If this is not true, as I have defined it, then please give an explanation of what would be the truth if one was lost.

Now as to murky thinking, you stated that Judas was one of the twelve and then betrayed Christ, as if this was not planned. I direct you to these verses:

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:71 Now he spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Acts 1:16 Brethren, it was needful that the scripture should be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was guide to them that took Jesus.

Judas was always destined to this role. It did not take Jesus Christ by surprise. He was never apart of God's Elect. He was used as an instrument to fulfill the prophecy of Scripture. John 6:70, proves that Judas' heart was not right with God. God does as He pleases. Shall I get into the other examples you gave?

 

[ZNP]

You did not answer the point I was making about the certainty of the Elect. Instead you just tried to muddy the water. In doing so, it would appear your thinking became murky. So I post it again:

Ahhh, you must have missed my answer so I will post it again.

If we follow your line of thinking, to it's ultimate conclusion, we would end up with this truth. (Which is not a truth at all) If one can lose their Salvation, once it has been applied, then that loss of Salvation would be the undoing of our Lord's statement, in John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that all that which he hath given (Perfect tense in the Greek language - proper translation of the verb: "has been given". Perfect tense, which means: Given in the past with continuing results.) me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. Thus, if someone could lose their Salvation, this understanding would be unacceptable because it would mean either our Lord didn't know what He was talking about or He was a liar. May it never be!!! The Lord Jesus Christ, is the Lord of Salvation and He is clear as to it's execution.

No, there is no guarantee to you or me or the apostle Paul, or that seed that was sown among thorns, or to those that Peter refers to that went out from among us that they have been given to the Lord or that they are the ones He was referring to.

Instead of ignoring the verses I already posted about God using old Testament people as an example to us like Reuben or Korah, if you had actually read that you would realize that God is more than willing to use people as an example of what can happen to us. Korah was a priest and he went straight to hell. Judas was one of the 12 apostles of Jesus and he also has a special appointed place for him in hell. Peter refers to those who at one point appeared to be believers, John does to, telling us that if they were they would have remained. The way you know they aren't is simply because they have fallen away. Paul refers to those who did likewise. Jesus tells us of those who claim to have done works in His name and He says depart from me workers of iniquity I never knew you. These are not the exception, they are the rule. Just like the parable of the sower, it is a rule that some seed will fall by the wayside, some will spring up in rocky ground, some will be choked by the weeds.

If this is not true, as I have defined it, then please give an explanation of what would be the truth if one was lost.

It depends on each situation. Korah is one, Judas is another, Peter talks of others. You have to be a whole lot more specific.

Now as to murky thinking, you stated that Judas was one of the twelve and then betrayed Christ, as if this was not planned. I direct you to these verses:

That is the point, if God can plan Judas and had a specific purpose for him and for Korah and for all the others, then certainly God is the same today as He was yesterday. It is the same today. If you think you stand be careful lest you fall.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:71 Now he spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

This proves that Judas betraying the Lord and going to Hell does not contradict what He said about all that the Father had given Him He should not lose any. So then even if you were one of the 12 apostles of Jesus it doesn't guarantee you were "once saved always saved".

Acts 1:16 Brethren, it was needful that the scripture should be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was guide to them that took Jesus.

Why was it needful? So that this "OSAS" doctrine would clearly and without any doubt be seen to be false.

Judas was always destined to this role. It did not take Jesus Christ by surprise. He was never apart of God's Elect. He was used as an instrument to fulfill the prophecy of Scripture. John 6:70, proves that Judas' heart was not right with God. God does as He pleases. Shall I get into the other examples you gave?

And you think that someone else falling away takes Him by surprise?

The Lord knows your heart. He knows if you are spending time with Him or not. He knows if you are putting on a pretense or not. Lucifer disguises himself as an angel of light. The Lord knows who are his, who is struggling, who is pretending, who is nominal, and who is just plain evil. This is why He says if you love Him you will do what He says. People use "OSAS" as a trump card for why they don't have to worry about their conscience convicting them that they are not doing what He says.

 

[awelight]

They responded to the "general call" of the gospel. What is the "general call" rather than the specific call?

Oh, and we can find this in the parable of the sower. So this is referring to the ground where the weeds choked it out. Was the seed any different than the seed on the good ground? Nope. Did this seed sprout and grow? yep. Same plant? Yep. But they allowed the cares of this world to choke it out and so lost their salvation? Whatever happened to OSAS?

The two calls, spoken of in the Doctrine of Soteriology, are : 1) The General call of the Gospel - is defined as, the Gospel heard by all when it is read, taught or preached. This general call, may for a short season, bring about temporary belief. 2) The Effectual call of the Gospel - is defined as, the Gospel heard by those who have been Regenerated by the Spirit and has an immediate and permanent effect on the hearer.

You seemed to have missed the point of the parable of the sower. The "seed", in the parable, is the Gospel and it is sown on four different types of "ground". The seed, as you said, is the same. However the "ground" is not. The ground is the person receiving it. The four types and the results are:

1) The "way side", which is a person, who took no real interest in what was heard. The birds devoured the Words of the Gospel. This is equivalent to what was said in Luke 8:11,12 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.

2) The "rocky ground", which is a person that receives the message with joy and then withers away because there is no root in them. This is equivalent to one who still posses a "stony heart", rather than a heart of flesh.

3) Among the thorns, which is a person consumed by the cares of this world and the riches it offers. They fall away because they cannot give their love to God. Their love is directed towards people and what the world can give them.

These three, are an example of the "General" call and the results thereof.

4) The "good ground", which is a person who has been prepared by God for the message. This one has experienced the New Birth (John 3:3-10). Therefore, this one has been Regenerated. This ones spirit, has gone from being inoperative to being alive. The stony heart has been removed and a heart of flesh bestowed. Because of this, they have a honest and good heart. They have seeing eyes and hearing ears - which is a way of saying, a spiritually discerning mind.

This then is the "Effectual" call. God makes it possible, through Regeneration, for that one to believe and stand firm in the Truth. It is spoken of Eze 11:19, 20 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh; that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Salvation is of the Lord.

 

[ZNP]

The two calls, spoken of in the Doctrine of Soteriology, are : 1) The General call of the Gospel - is defined as, the Gospel heard by all when it is read, taught or preached. This general call, may for a short season, bring about temporary belief. 2) The Effectual call of the Gospel - is defined as, the Gospel heard by those who have been Regenerated by the Spirit and has an immediate and permanent effect on the hearer.

You seemed to have missed the point of the parable of the sower. The "seed", in the parable, is the Gospel and it is sown on four different types of "ground". The seed, as you said, is the same. However the "ground" is not. The ground is the person receiving it. The four types and the results are:

1) The "way side", which is a person, who took no real interest in what was heard. The birds devoured the Words of the Gospel. This is equivalent to what was said in Luke 8:11,12 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.

2) The "rocky ground", which is a person that receives the message with joy and then withers away because there is no root in them. This is equivalent to one who still posses a "stony heart", rather than a heart of flesh.

3) Among the thorns, which is a person consumed by the cares of this world and the riches it offers. They fall away because they cannot give their love to God. Their love is directed towards people and what the world can give them.

These three, are an example of the "General" call and the results thereof.

4) The "good ground", which is a person who has been prepared by God for the message. This one has experienced the New Birth (John 3:3-10). Therefore, this one has been Regenerated. This ones spirit, has gone from being inoperative to being alive. The stony heart has been removed and a heart of flesh bestowed. Because of this, they have a honest and good heart. They have seeing eyes and hearing ears - which is a way of saying, a spiritually discerning mind.

This then is the "Effectual" call. God makes it possible, through Regeneration, for that one to believe and stand firm in the Truth. It is spoken of Eze 11:19, 20 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh; that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Salvation is of the Lord.

The bottom line is if someone wants to claim "once saved always saved" means you don't have to worry about living in sin because you are saved and therefore going to heaven, that doctrine is bogus.

Once you start adding all these other conditions with each condition you add you get closer to the understanding I have been saying. What is the difference between the "good ground" and the ground with rocks in it? Can someone who has rocky soil do something about it? Of course, if you work with the Lord to remove the rocks from your heart then of course you can become the good ground. Same thing with the weeds. I would recommend all new believers to get rid of your TV and smart phone. Don't go to the movies. Give yourself a couple of years to dive into the word, be transformed by the word before you think you can discern and spend time watching the news with discernment. It is amazing what getting rid of the TV, Smartphone and other distractions does for getting rid of the weeds. It is like setting the field on fire, burning up the weeds and then planting your crops.

The problem with "OSAS" is that they have taken a few verses that give you the full assurance that God can keep his part of the bargain and nothing that Satan or anyone else can do will change that, and they go off the deep end to say hey you can continue to live in sin, don't worry, you are still saved. So they ignore other Bible verses where the NT clearly says no fornicator will inherit the kingdom of God. I'd like to hear that truth spoken in one of these mega Free Mason churches.

Galatians 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[awelight]

Ahhh, you must have missed my answer so I will post it again.



No, there is no guarantee to you or me or the apostle Paul, or that seed that was sown among thorns, or to those that Peter refers to that went out from among us that they have been given to the Lord or that they are the ones He was referring to.

Instead of ignoring the verses I already posted about God using old Testament people as an example to us like Reuben or Korah, if you had actually read that you would realize that God is more than willing to use people as an example of what can happen to us. Korah was a priest and he went straight to hell. Judas was one of the 12 apostles of Jesus and he also has a special appointed place for him in hell. Peter refers to those who at one point appeared to be believers, John does to, telling us that if they were they would have remained. The way you know they aren't is simply because they have fallen away. Paul refers to those who did likewise. Jesus tells us of those who claim to have done works in His name and He says depart from me workers of iniquity I never knew you. These are not the exception, they are the rule. Just like the parable of the sower, it is a rule that some seed will fall by the wayside, some will spring up in rocky ground, some will be choked by the weeds.



It depends on each situation. Korah is one, Judas is another, Peter talks of others. You have to be a whole lot more specific.



That is the point, if God can plan Judas and had a specific purpose for him and for Korah and for all the others, then certainly God is the same today as He was yesterday. It is the same today. If you think you stand be careful lest you fall.



This proves that Judas betraying the Lord and going to Hell does not contradict what He said about all that the Father had given Him He should not lose any. So then even if you were one of the 12 apostles of Jesus it doesn't guarantee you were "once saved always saved".



Why was it needful? So that this "OSAS" doctrine would clearly and without any doubt be seen to be false.


And you think that someone else falling away takes Him by surprise?

The Lord knows your heart. He knows if you are spending time with Him or not. He knows if you are putting on a pretense or not. Lucifer disguises himself as an angel of light. The Lord knows who are his, who is struggling, who is pretending, who is nominal, and who is just plain evil. This is why He says if you love Him you will do what He says. People use "OSAS" as a trump card for why they don't have to worry about their conscience convicting them that they are not doing what He says.

I think you are allowing your disgust, with those religionist and others, who would have one believe, they can be saved and then live like hell, take you away from a clearly taught doctrine. You cannot blame OSAS teaching for these heresies. Many doctrines are given lip service too but are not actually followed. "Easy believism" has polluted the Gospel message. The Catholics have never understood it and so on and so on. Their pollution of any doctrinal truth does not make that doctrine less true.

No true believer, of the Gospel, would believe you can be saved IN your sins but are saved from your sins. God's Law manifests the nature of sin and brings about a guilty conscience and repentance. No true believer of OSAS, would think that this truth gives him license to sin.

But back to my question, specifically, - If one of the Elect could be lost and was lost, Then how could Jesus Christ say, that He would lose nothing? Either He is God and shall lose nothing or He is not who He says He is. Which?

 

[awelight]

The bottom line is if someone wants to claim "once saved always saved" means you don't have to worry about living in sin because you are saved and therefore going to heaven, that doctrine is bogus.

Once you start adding all these other conditions with each condition you add you get closer to the understanding I have been saying. What is the difference between the "good ground" and the ground with rocks in it? Can someone who has rocky soil do something about it? Of course, if you work with the Lord to remove the rocks from your heart then of course you can become the good ground. Same thing with the weeds. I would recommend all new believers to get rid of your TV and smart phone. Don't go to the movies. Give yourself a couple of years to dive into the word, be transformed by the word before you think you can discern and spend time watching the news with discernment. It is amazing what getting rid of the TV, Smartphone and other distractions does for getting rid of the weeds. It is like setting the field on fire, burning up the weeds and then planting your crops.

The problem with "OSAS" is that they have taken a few verses that give you the full assurance that God can keep his part of the bargain and nothing that Satan or anyone else can do will change that, and they go off the deep end to say hey you can continue to live in sin, don't worry, you are still saved. So they ignore other Bible verses where the NT clearly says no fornicator will inherit the kingdom of God. I'd like to hear that truth spoken in one of these mega Free Mason churches.

Galatians 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

You do not except, the simple teaching of the parable of the sower and make it about what we can do. Likewise you ignored what the prophet Ezekiel said, in Chapter 11. You ignored all the "I will" spoken by God. It is through the power of God and God alone, that one is Regenerated. You speak of Conversion but conversion is not regeneration - quote: "Can someone who has rocky soil do something about it? Of course, if you work with the Lord to remove the rocks from your heart..." After regeneration, one is able to discern the Words of God, as revealed in Scripture. That one believes and begins their conversion - of which there will be many. This is the proper and necessary sequence to Salvation's application. No regeneration - no true conversion. God moves first and we respond.

Are you denying the doctrine of spiritual depravity?

As to myself. I have been a believer and a translator of, the koine Greek New Testament, for over thirty years. While this does not mean, that I can't be deceived but it does mean, that I have a good grasp on the Doctrines of Scripture.

 

[ZNP]

I think you are allowing your disgust, with those religionist and others, who would have one believe, they can be saved and then live like hell, take you away from a clearly taught doctrine. You cannot blame OSAS teaching for these heresies.

So who do you blame?

Many doctrines are given lip service too but are not actually followed. "Easy believism" has polluted the Gospel message. The Catholics have never understood it and so on and so on. Their pollution of any doctrinal truth does not make that doctrine less true.

Of course it does, this is what truly "muddies the water". They call it "once saved always saved". Paul talked about watering down the word of God, this is what they are doing and they use the term "once saved always saved". So now you have confusion. You need to rename your doctrine what it truly is -- Salvation you can believe in with some provisions and requirements.

No true believer, of the Gospel, would believe you can be saved IN your sins but are saved from your sins. God's Law manifests the nature of sin and brings about a guilty conscience and repentance. No true believer of OSAS, would think that this truth gives him license to sin.

Then you are not listening to the most popular teleevangelists and pastors of the mega churches. This is precisely what the Free Masons want to do, infiltrate the evangelicals and pollute the gospel.

But back to my question, specifically, - If one of the Elect could be lost and was lost, Then how could Jesus Christ say, that He would lose nothing? Either He is God and shall lose nothing or He is not who He says He is. Which?

The answer is simple, you may think you are the elect, you may claim you are doing many wonderful works in the name of Jesus and yet when you appear before His throne will He say He never knew you? How could Paul say he was working out his salvation in fear and trembling if this were not a possibility. How can you explain any of the many verses I have already posted if this were not a possibility.

1Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

[ZNP]

You do not except, the simple teaching of the parable of the sower and make it about what we can do. Likewise you ignored what the prophet Ezekiel said, in Chapter 11. You ignored all the "I will" spoken by God. It is through the power of God and God alone, that one is Regenerated. You speak of Conversion but conversion is not regeneration - quote: "Can someone who has rocky soil do something about it? Of course, if you work with the Lord to remove the rocks from your heart..." After regeneration, one is able to discern the Words of God, as revealed in Scripture. That one believes and begins their conversion - of which there will be many. This is the proper and necessary sequence to Salvation's application. No regeneration - no true conversion. God moves first and we respond.

Are you denying the doctrine of spiritual depravity?

As to myself. I have been a believer and a translator of, the koine Greek New Testament, for over thirty years. While this does not mean, that I can't be deceived but it does mean, that I have a good grasp on the Doctrines of Scripture.

The Bible is filled with promises that God is faithful and trustworthy and merciful and loving.

However, we should not be ignorant of Satan's devices and how he tries to twist the scriptures. I thought I believed according to "Once Saved always saved" for years even though I fully agreed with all the other verses that I have posted. I assumed that was obvious. But Satan is using this "once saved always saved" to claim that you don't have to worry about living in sin. Paul said if I sit at meat and because of my faith my brother is stumbled then I am guilty. As a result I refuse to use the term "once saved always saved" anymore.