Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

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presidente

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May 29, 2013
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I believe the man of sin reveal on the second half of tribulation
According to I Thessalonians 1, the rapture and resurrection happen at Jesus' coming. According to II Thessalonians 2, the 'man of sin' passage, 'that wicked' is destroyed 'at the brightness of His coming.' If both of these happen at the Lord's coming, then when is the rapture?

Also, the day of Christ will not occur until the man of sin is revealed according to II Thessalonians 2.
 

presidente

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The gospels of Matt, Mark and Luke talk about Jesus coming to the EARTH (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21), replete with florid descriptions of the predicament of Jerusalem and Israel.

The gospel of John is written primarily to the Church and talks about Jesus coming FOR his Church (Ch 14) to take them FROM the earth. And....there are NO passages dealing with the SC.

I detect a pattern here.....;)
Most Christians believe the dead go to heaven to be with Christ before the resurrection. Revelation describes the New Jerusalem descending out of heaven.

And yet there is no scripture about two more comings of Christ.
 

cv5

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Most Christians believe the dead go to heaven to be with Christ before the resurrection. Revelation describes the New Jerusalem descending out of heaven.

And yet there is no scripture about two more comings of Christ.
I have to say....post tribbers lack a comprehensive understanding of the whole counsel of God regarding eschatology. And their errors and omissions have been quite thoroughly addressed here and on so many other threads.

The fact is....a rapture of Christians at the point of the SC makes zero sense Scripturally. It fails on many levels. On every level actually.

You post-tribbers have doubts, questions, confusion, Scriptural loose ends everywhere.
Not for us pre-tribbers though. We have a complete package with a bow on it ready for delivery.

Pre-trib rapture seals the deal eschatologically.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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According to I Thessalonians 1, the rapture and resurrection happen at Jesus' coming. According to II Thessalonians 2, the 'man of sin' passage, 'that wicked' is destroyed 'at the brightness of His coming.' If both of these happen at the Lord's coming, then when is the rapture?

Also, the day of Christ will not occur until the man of sin is revealed according to II Thessalonians 2.
Rapture and second coming not happen before ac being reveal ( 2 Tess 2)
 

Jackson123

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I have to say....post tribbers lack a comprehensive understanding of the whole counsel of God regarding eschatology. And their errors and omissions have been quite thoroughly addressed here and on so many other threads.

The fact is....a rapture of Christians at the point of the SC makes zero sense Scripturally. It fails on many levels. On every level actually.

You post-tribbers have doubts, questions, confusion, Scriptural loose ends everywhere.
Not for us pre-tribbers though. We have a complete package with a bow on it ready for delivery.

Pre-trib rapture seals the deal eschatologically.
According 2 Tess 2 pre trib is lie
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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I have to say....post tribbers lack a comprehensive understanding of the whole counsel of God regarding eschatology. And their errors and omissions have been quite thoroughly addressed here and on so many other threads.
The big problem with pretrib is that the Bible does not actually teach it. You won't find any passage of scripture that says Jesus is coming back twice. You find many references to the 'parousia', the coming of Christ. Pre-tribbers invent a second, second coming of Jesus, a partial return, and then say this verse about the parousia is about the rapture event, and this one is a later second coming. But the Bible doesn't teach that. The passages that lay out a sequence don't have two comings. There is no rapture of the church in Revelation mentioned before the unpleasantness starts.

There is no reference to a rapture before the great tribulation in Matthew 24. Instead, the coming of the Son of Man is set at the end of the tribulation. And there is language that is parallel with rapture passages. For example, there is the coming of the Son of Man and angels gather in the elect in Matthew 24, and II Thessalonians 2 mentions the coming of the Lord and our gathering to him. There is a trumpet in Matthew 24, after the tribulation at the coming of the Son of Man and a trumpet in the passage that actually mentions the rapture (caught up) in I Thessalonians 4.

So we have these passages that all fit together as one event, but pre-tribbers assert.... without evidence... that the coming of the Lord is two events and say this verse goes in the rapture box, and this verse goes in the second coming box.

Not to mention passages like II Thessalonians 1 and Thessalonians 2, which, with a straightforward, plain sense of the text contradicts pretrib.

One thing I'll give pre-tribber is a lot of them have some kind of explanation for just about everything. It may be an explanation that goes against the plain sense of the text, an explanation that leaves non-pretribbers shaking their heads, but you have something to say for just about everything.

The fact is....a rapture of Christians at the point of the SC makes zero sense Scripturally. It fails on many levels. On every level actually.
Post trib rests on a very straightforward interpretation of scriptures, without dividing references to Christ's coming into two events without any justification from scripture whatsoever.

What problem is there for post-trib that isn't also a problem for pre-trib? The 'problems' for pre-trib I am familiar with, are problems for pre-tribbers who treat the pre-trib scenario as if it were scripture. Like 'What about the marriage supper of the Lamb happening up in heaven before the Second Coming when the Bible does not say that the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven before the Second Coming. Or the idea that the restrainer must be the Holy Spirit, when the passage says no such thing.

Or there are verses taken out of context. Paul says we are not appointed unto wrath, but to obtain salvation from our Lord Jesus Christ. And because in Revelation, bowls of wrath are poured out on unbelievers, that is supposed to prove a pre-trib rapture. But wouldn't imply that the tribulational saints are appointed unto wrath, rather than to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ?

The tribulational saints are portrayed as overcomers, and pre-trib portrays them poorly, as those who missed the rapture.

You post-tribbers have doubts, questions, confusion, Scriptural loose ends everywhere.
Not for us pre-tribbers though. We have a complete package with a bow on it ready for delivery.
Again,pre-trib is not something the Bible teaches. There is no passage of scripture you can point to (without getting crazy allegorical, funny for supposedly literal interpreters) that shows a rapture occurring before the tribulation. It's all based on explanations to try to make this whole scenario fit with passages of scripture. But the scripture doesn't teach the scenario, so where is it's authority?

It's a 'goodness of fit' approach, not something the Bible actually teaches.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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There it is again! :unsure:

1Th 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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There it is again! :unsure:

1Th 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
And Paul explains in chapter 4 that at the coming of the Lord, the dead in Christ rise first, then they which are alive and remain meet the Lord in the air. That explains how Jesus can come back with the saints.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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And Paul explains in chapter 4 that at the coming of the Lord, the dead in Christ rise first, then they which are alive and remain meet the Lord in the air. That explains how Jesus can come back with the saints.
The death rapture first than the live rapture

so

post trib, pre trib is lie

Jesuit lie

Paul warned about lie doctrine
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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Not quite correct. The DOTL extends to infinity IMO. Beyond even the GWT judgement and the NH/NE.

What we believe is that the 70th week of Daniel (the trib/GT) are merely the START of the DOTL (has to start sometime right?). The SC just happens to occur precisely at the END of the 70th week. This 70 week has as one of its primary objectives the final redemption of Jacob. Which is why the 70th week prophecy of Dan 9 is directed to Israel alone.

All of this FULLY supported by vast tracts of Scripture.

BTW, no NT writer warns that born-again believing CHRISTIANS that they are guaranteed to suffer Gods tribulation wrath. Including Jesus in John 14. On the contrary, it is unerringly consistent that we will receive rest, comfort, relief while everyone else suffers through that period of time. And Jesus says he will be taking us to the Fathers house.....no mention of any wrath whatsoever. Confirmed in Rev 3:10.
More piffle!
 

GaryA

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I have to say....post tribbers lack a comprehensive understanding of the whole counsel of God regarding eschatology. And their errors and omissions have been quite thoroughly addressed here and on so many other threads.

The fact is....a rapture of Christians at the point of the SC makes zero sense Scripturally. It fails on many levels. On every level actually.

You post-tribbers have doubts, questions, confusion, Scriptural loose ends everywhere.
Not for us pre-tribbers though. We have a complete package with a bow on it ready for delivery.

Pre-trib rapture seals the deal eschatologically.
What you have is PRIDE - and it blinds you to the truth of the scriptures concerning eschatology.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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The death rapture first than the live rapture

so

post trib, pre trib is lie

Jesuit lie

Paul warned about lie doctrine
Rather cryptic. It's hard to figure out what you are trying to say.
 

GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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Not for us pre-tribbers though. We have a complete package with a bow on it ready for delivery.
We shall see just how well it "delivers"...

When you find yourself at the concentration camp standing in line waiting your turn at the guillotine while looking up into the sky and asking "Where are you, Lord?!?!?!?!" --- remember what I said in this post. ;)
 

GaryA

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Not trying to be too harsh or ugly to you @cv5 - just wish you would swallow your pride and wake up to the truth of the scriptures concerning the End Times Scenario... (you and many others)
 

GaryA

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I have actually prayed for many of you - on multiple occasions - that the Lord would open your eyes - and that you would see the truth of the scriptures concerning the End Times Scenario.
 

GaryA

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Pride and Cognitive Dissonance seem to be unsurmountable for most...
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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Rather cryptic. It's hard to figure out what you are trying to say.
I think he means - first, you are taken to heaven when you die - then, you get your glorified body at the resurrection/rapture - no room for another occurance in between...
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Rather cryptic. It's hard to figure out what you are trying to say.
2 Tess 2
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

verse 1 about rapture and second coming
vrese 3 don’t let any body lie to you, that day ( rapture and second coming) not going to happen before man of sin being reveal

> man of sin being reveal on great tribulation

so rapture after gt
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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We shall see just how well it "delivers"...

When you find yourself at the concentration camp standing in line waiting your turn at the guillotine while looking up into the sky and asking "Where are you, Lord?!?!?!?!" --- remember what I said in this post. ;)
1Co 1:7
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Hmmm no mention of the man of sin, guillotines, and God's wrath coming upon believers here.
Or anywhere else in any other epistle....:unsure:. Because we are NOT appointed to God's wrath.
I mean......you would think Paul would have warned believers of their inevitable grisly fate if this were a concern...right?

You see, the Bride has already been harpazo-ed and rewarded as seen in Rev 4 and 5.
Also see Rev 19:7 the already wedded "Wife" is already in heaven being prepared for the WEDDING SUPPER.
This WEDDING SUPPER can only occur after the SC....which happens in Rev 19:11.

This Rev 19 sequence is quite unequivocal and lays to rest the imperturbable fact of the pre-trib rapture. Correct?