Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[Lucy-Pevensie]

No, the activities of The Antichrist are not the cause.

And, as I've repeatedly stated to you, when you've presented this "strawman" about us supposedly "dining in heaven" while the Trib takes place on the earth, (not to mention, that I have stated this several times in this very thread), the "supper / feast" is the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (commencing upon His RETURN to the earth); it's not what we'll be doing "in Heaven" (following "our Rapture")

So you've revised the PTR doctrine. That's fine.
But I'm not going to humour your claims that it wasn't taught that way for decades.

* Left behind
* Wedding supper of The Lamb in heaven.

Were taught for years. Sermons, books and films contained the teachings.

That it has changed or that your personal view is different isn't very surprising since the PTR story
has so many holes & inconsistencies.

 

[cv5]

So the activities of The Antichrist cause unbelievers to repent by hearing a different gospel message while we dine in heaven.
2 churches & 2 gospels.

BTW....I have no idea where this theory of yours comes from, but it certainly is not Biblical.

As I am sure you know, the 144,000 Jewish commandos and 2 witnesses are preaching repentance. Certainly not the AC.
My guess is that there will be plenty of people who will come to faith by lots of different means. People aren't that stupid (they are going to understand that the end-times have arrived....ahem...rapture), and there will also be bibles in the 70th week. That people will be reading with renewed vigor no doubt.

Is it a "different gospel message"? A little different......perhaps. A saving message regardless.

Rev 14:6
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Rev 11:13
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Rev 16:9
And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

 

[cv5]

So you've revised the PTR doctrine. That's fine.
But I'm not going to humour your claims that it wasn't taught that way for decades.

* Left behind
* Wedding supper of The Lamb in heaven.

Were taught for years. Sermons, books and films contained the teachings.

That it has changed or that your personal view is different isn't very surprising since the PTR story
has so many holes & inconsistencies.

No....lol. No no no.

That is NOT what TDW is proclaiming, nor am I.

NOBODY gets "left behind". Being born again is an event....not a process. And has been said hundreds of times, the WEDDING FEAST occurs AFTER the SC to the EARTH, with a multitude of guests including resurrected OT saints, surviving Israelites, and gentile sheep.

You fail to understand the Jewish wedding ceremony process. There is the "snatch", private seven day honeymoon at the fathers house, then the already married bride and groom provide a wedding feast where the entire village is invited.

A perfect fit right?

Rev 19:7
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage (SUPPER) of the Lamb is come, and his (ALREADY WEDDED) wife hath made herself ready.

Rev 19:8
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19:9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

THEN The Coming of Christ AND AFTER THAT THE WEDDING SUPPER

Rev 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

BTW....I have no idea where this theory of yours comes from, but it certainly is not Biblical.

.

I know it isn't. It's not my theory. It's a paraphrase of DWM's post# 656. You agreed with it.

Get your stories straight. Either you think there is an elite "church age" group or you don't.
It's not my idea. It's what you teach. ↓

There is a distinction made between trib saints and the Church. As there is between OT saints and the Church.

The Church per se is one and done. Starts at Pentecost ends at the rapture. THEN the 70th week of Daniel, where God intervenes with wrath and judgments upon the earth dwellers, and also finalizes His dealings and fulfills His covenant with Israel. Of course others (trib saints and sheep gentiles) get an overflow of redemptive blessings too.

Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is a distinction made between trib saints and the Church. As there is between OT saints and the Church.

The Church per se is one and done. Starts at Pentecost ends at the rapture. THEN the 70th week of Daniel, where God intervenes with wrath and judgments upon the earth dwellers, and also finalizes His dealings and fulfills His covenant with Israel. Of course others (trib saints and sheep gentiles) get an overflow of redemptive blessings too.

Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Nope. 1 Cor 15:23 tells us that there is NO distinction among believers. It says "those who belong to Him". That includes ALL OT saints, ALL NT saints, which includes those who will be saved in the Tribulation. Those martyrs will be resurrected "when He comes" at the second advent and reign with Christ. Rev 20:4-6

 

[FreeGrace2]

You see.....your misapprehensions all derive from a point of eschatological error. That being denying or misunderstanding the pre-trib rapture.

Except....there is NONE. No pre-trib rapture. In fact, NO trip to heaven after resurrection. It all occurs at the Second Advent and then reign with Christ on earth. Rev 20:4-6

Should you integrate the Biblical reality of the pre-trib rapture of the Church into your eschatology

The REALITY is there will be no glorified trip to heaven ever. And you KNOW there are no verses that support that idea.
It's a notion. Nothing more.

.......everything else falls into order. Perfectly. Flawlessly. No errors, no omissions, no paradoxes, no dilemmas, no loose ends.

Except there aren't any verses that support the notion of a pre-trib rapture. Or any trip to heaven.

 

[cv5]

I know it isn't. It's not my theory. It's a paraphrase of DWM's post# 656. You agreed with it.

Get your stories straight. Either you think there is an elite "church age" group or you don't.
It's not my idea. It's what you teach. ↓

No, the Church is not "elite". That is YOUR indictment not mine. The Church is the Church. OT saints are OT saints. Trib saints are trib saints. Saved gentile sheep are saved gentile sheep.

And yea....the Church just happens to be raptured. God's grace don't you know. Especially profuse on the Bride.

So tell me.....are OT saints like Daniel, Jerimiah, David, Amos, John the Baptist part of the Bride or Christ?

 

[cv5]

The REALITY is there will be no glorified trip to heaven ever.

This is true only if Jesus Himself did not take a trip to heaven in a glorified body.
BUT......He did. At least twice actually. My guess is that Jesus was up and down as often as He saw fit. Could have been dozens of times nobody really knows.

Jhn 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Act 1:9
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

 

[presidente]

Scriptures speak of Christ coming FOR His saints, and a coming WITH His saints. One is the Rapture , the other His Second Advent.

The Bible only speaks of one coming. The saints meet the Lord in the air as He returns. There is no need to suppose multiple second coming events.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

No, the Church is not "elite". That is YOUR indictment not mine. The Church is the Church. OT saints are OT saints. Trib saints are trib saints. Saved gentile sheep are saved gentile sheep.

And yea....the Church just happens to be raptured. God's grace don't you know. Especially profuse on the Bride.

So tell me.....are OT saints like Daniel, Jerimiah, David, Amos, John the Baptist part of the Bride or Christ?

The church in your view is exclusive of many believers ergo it is an elite group.
Of course I think OT saints who believed in YHWH's salvation are part of The Bride. They were expecting him.

Job was expecting him at the resurrection at the end.

25 Yet as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
And at the last, He will take His stand on the earth.

26 Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I will see God,

27 Whom I, on my part, shall behold for myself,
And whom my eyes will see, and not another.
My heart faints within me!

~ Job 19

 

[cv5]

The church in your view is exclusive of many believers ergo it is an elite group.
Of course I think OT saints who believed in YHWH's salvation are part of The Bride. They were expecting him.

Job was expecting him at the resurrection at the end.

25 Yet as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
And at the last, He will take His stand on the earth.

26 Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I will see God,

27 Whom I, on my part, shall behold for myself,
And whom my eyes will see, and not another.
My heart faints within me!

~ Job 19

Job is correct that he will rise with all the OT saints per Daniel 12, yes.

But John the Baptist says he himself in NOT the Bride.....and he of all OT saints should know. Right? I mean no prophet was less confused about the Messiah.....right?

Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

So tell us....are the gentile sheep who survive the SC judgement, are they the Bride too?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Job is correct that he will rise with all the OT saints per Daniel 12, yes.

But John the Baptist says he himself in NOT the Bride.....and he of all OT saints should know. Right? I mean no prophet was less confused about the Messiah.....right?

Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

So tell us....are the gentile sheep who survive the SC judgement, are they the Bride too?

So because John stated he was not the main event (the bridegroom) but only a friend who attends him-
you think John is not included in the bride (the body of redemeed believers)?

John was saying he wasn't The Messiah. There isn't anything more to it.

 

[cv5]

John was saying he wasn't The Messiah. There isn't anything more to it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The Bible only speaks of one coming. The saints meet the Lord in the air as He returns. There is no need to suppose multiple second coming events.

And (according to the "Amill-teachings"), there is only ONE "raise" issue in Acts 3 ( righhhhht ) so that the "Amill-teachings" can insist this means that David's throne was of course now relocated to heaven, no need for an earthly Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His Return.

Of course, they can say all three mentions of the word "raise" in that passage speak of His being "raised from the dead" (no need to search for or ascertain whether there's any other kind of "raise" being spoken of in this passage--which there is), but thinking all 3 "raise" words in chpt 3 speak of His being "raised from the dead" would be a wrong assumption (merely a stabbing at individual "words" without grasping their meaning in the actual sentences they are expressed in...) but, oh well... they'll insist upon their "Amill-teachings" till the day they die (or are raptured ), no amount of explaining those distinctions (within a singular text / context) will budge them from their theology... To them, there's absolutely no reason to suppose more than ONE "raise" issue in that text (hence, their coming to incorrect conclusions about what the text is conveying).

 

[DavidTree]

Scriptures speak of Christ coming FOR His saints, and a coming WITH His saints. One is the Rapture , the other His Second Advent.

You need to read more carefully 1 Thessalonians.

Here it is again:

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you b the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.

These words of God by the Power of the Holy Spirit spoken thru the Apostle Paul cotnradict your words = severly.

Please reexamine and compare God's words to yours and always rembember this: Proverbs 30:5-6 & Revelation 22:18-19

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

 

[DavidTree]

CV5, TheDivineWatermark and ALL pre-tribbers have been given the TRUTH CHALLENGE on Post #659

If you are unable to answer your own beliefs then maybe you should humble yourself before the LORD which is always a Good Thing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The REALITY is there will be no glorified trip to heaven ever.

This is true only if Jesus Himself did not take a trip to heaven in a glorified body.

OK, after His resurrection, He DID empty Paradise of all the OT believers and did take them to heaven, where they still are today.

I was referring to the supposed trip to heaven after the singular resurrection of all the saved. You know, 1 Thess 4.

BUT......He did. At least twice actually. My guess is that Jesus was up and down as often as He saw fit. Could have been dozens of times nobody really knows.

How many times does the Bible actually SAY He did?

Jhn 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Do you not realize that His trip to heaven after His resurrection has nothing to do with the resurrection of "those who belong" to Him "when He comes", per 1 Cor 15:23.

Act 1:9
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

I think EVERY believer knows that He ascended to heaven after His resurrection. At least those who have read Acts 1.

And none of what you post supports the theory of a pre-trib rapture with trip to heaven. That's what I meant and you know it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Job is correct that he will rise with all the OT saints per Daniel 12, yes.

To be clear, Job is correct in that he will be resurrected along with "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23 which is when He comes back at the Second Advent.

But John the Baptist says he himself in NOT the Bride.....and he of all OT saints should know. Right? I mean no prophet was less confused about the Messiah.....right?

Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

John died before Jesus did. So he is an OT saint.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's it. Just keep banging your forehead, until some reality gets in!

 

[presidente]

And (according to the "Amill-teachings"), there is only ONE "raise" issue in Acts 3 ( righhhhht ) so that the "Amill-teachings" can insist this means that David's throne was of course now relocated to heaven, no need for an earthly Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His Return.

Of course, they can say all three mentions of the word "raise" in that passage speak of His being "raised from the dead" (no need to search for or ascertain whether there's any other kind of "raise" being spoken of in this passage--which there is), but thinking all 3 "raise" words in chpt 3 speak of His being "raised from the dead" would be a wrong assumption (merely a stabbing at individual "words" without grasping their meaning in the actual sentences they are expressed in...) but, oh well... they'll insist upon their "Amill-teachings" till the day they die (or are raptured ), no amount of explaining those distinctions (within a singular text / context) will budge them from their theology... To them, there's absolutely no reason to suppose more than ONE "raise" issue in that text (hence, their coming to incorrect conclusions about what the text is conveying).

1. I am not amil.
2. These kinds of posts do little good unless you wuote the verses in question.