Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?
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Don't give yourself a hernia bro.....
It's YOUR side that faces the IMPOSSIBLE task of proving that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven.
Kinda like trying to life 1 ton all by yourself. That's how to give yourself a hernia. Be careful.
What point? You mentioned the 2 witnesses. Not me.
Go back and read your own posts. You don't believe that there will be just one resurrection of the saved. And you quoted some verses, including the 2W, as evidence that there are other resurrections, as if the 2W received glorified bodies.
Give me a sample of what Jesus said that you are thinking of.
I've heard that nonsense before and I still reject it. When Paul gave his testimony several times to the authorities, he would say that he was saying nothing beyond what Moses and the prophets were saying. That's OT. So please save your breath for others, who may be gullible and believe what you claim.
Paul was referring to OT writers, obviously. As was Peter:
Acts 10:43 - To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Acts 26:21-22
with their repentance. For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass:
Rom 1:1,2
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures,
This refers to the "mystery doctrine" which was that the Gentiles would be grafted in, which the OT prophets didn't know.
Please re-type this mess so that one can follow the words, rather than trying to get through all your unnecessary "enhancements" that detract from communication.
Then I'll respond. Your sentences are way too long, and all your enhancements just mess up whatever you are trying to communicate.
Go back and read your own posts. You don't believe that there will be just one resurrection of the saved. And you quoted some verses, including the 2W, as evidence that there are other resurrections, as if the 2W received glorified bodies.
Give me a sample of what Jesus said that you are thinking of.
I've heard that nonsense before and I still reject it. When Paul gave his testimony several times to the authorities, he would say that he was saying nothing beyond what Moses and the prophets were saying. That's OT. So please save your breath for others, who may be gullible and believe what you claim.
Paul was referring to OT writers, obviously. As was Peter:
Acts 10:43 - To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Acts 26:21-22
with their repentance. For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass:
Rom 1:1,2
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures,
This refers to the "mystery doctrine" which was that the Gentiles would be grafted in, which the OT prophets didn't know.
Please re-type this mess so that one can follow the words, rather than trying to get through all your unnecessary "enhancements" that detract from communication.
Then I'll respond. Your sentences are way too long, and all your enhancements just mess up whatever you are trying to communicate.
Bro......since when is laying in the street dead for 3.5 days, a voice from heaven saying COME UP HITHER, and being taken up IN A CLOUD of Shekinah glory, all of this while your enemies behold it, typical of Christians dying and their spirit going to meet the Lord?
Your theory is Looney Tunes bro.......
Your theory is Looney Tunes bro.......
"What point?" The point you brought up about His "appearing" to Paul on the road is not a "coming".
I never made that point (I've NEVER stated such a thing), and I have no clue why you are addressing ME about such a point (since I wasn't saying anything regarding such an idea)... and then forgetting "what point" you are even making.
Let the readers judge.
I never made that point (I've NEVER stated such a thing), and I have no clue why you are addressing ME about such a point (since I wasn't saying anything regarding such an idea)... and then forgetting "what point" you are even making.
Let the readers judge.
Who said it was typical? Not me.
Of course it's not typical. But it is also NOT a GLORIFIED RESURRECTION.
But since you think so, prove that "in the clouds" IS the Shekinah glory. In fact prove that when Jesus ascended in Acts 1, that cloud was the Shekinah glory.
But you'll just be wasting your time, since the Shekinah Glory IS IS IS the Lord Jesus Himself in pre-incarnate form.
Jesus was hid from the 11 by real physical clouds. Just as the 2W will be.
Look.in.mirror. Dude.
Of course it's not typical. But it is also NOT a GLORIFIED RESURRECTION.
But since you think so, prove that "in the clouds" IS the Shekinah glory. In fact prove that when Jesus ascended in Acts 1, that cloud was the Shekinah glory.
But you'll just be wasting your time, since the Shekinah Glory IS IS IS the Lord Jesus Himself in pre-incarnate form.
Jesus was hid from the 11 by real physical clouds. Just as the 2W will be.
Your theory is Looney Tunes bro.......
OK, now I have some context. Why you guys make statements but leave out context is hardly helpful.
I brought that up to show that the Bible doesn't count that as a "coming" because the OT never prophesied that.
The ONLY 2 prophecies about Jesus coming to earth are the first and second advents. I've already given what each one was about and since nobody disputed it, I guess you are agreeing with me.
When Jesus comes back, there will be THE resurrection of the saints. 1 Cor 15:23.
Or, go ahead and try to shred that verse to make it say something else.
I brought that up to show that the Bible doesn't count that as a "coming" because the OT never prophesied that.
The ONLY 2 prophecies about Jesus coming to earth are the first and second advents. I've already given what each one was about and since nobody disputed it, I guess you are agreeing with me.
When Jesus comes back, there will be THE resurrection of the saints. 1 Cor 15:23.
Or, go ahead and try to shred that verse to make it say something else.
And may the readers note:
--"I go TO PREPARE a place for you"
...is not the same thing as saying,
--[what He will say to the Sheep [the righteous] of the nations, re: the earthly MK age] "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you FROM [apo (not "BEFORE / pro" used of others elsewhere)] the foundation of the world"
See the clear distinction? "I GO TO PREPARE" and "HAVING BEED PREPARED... FROM the foundation of the world" are not saying the same things, but very distinct things.
--"I go TO PREPARE a place for you"
...is not the same thing as saying,
--[what He will say to the Sheep [the righteous] of the nations, re: the earthly MK age] "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you FROM [apo (not "BEFORE / pro" used of others elsewhere)] the foundation of the world"
See the clear distinction? "I GO TO PREPARE" and "HAVING BEED PREPARED... FROM the foundation of the world" are not saying the same things, but very distinct things.
That was fulfilled when Jesus ascended to heaven after His resurrection. He was assuring the 11 that they would go to heaven.
[QUOE]...is not the same thing as saying,
--[what He will say to the Sheep [the righteous] of the nations, re: the earthly MK age] "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you FROM [apo (not "BEFORE / pro" used of others elsewhere)] the foundation of the world"[/QUOTE]
Who knows what you are even saying here, what with all your "enhancements" and nonsense. Can't you just type like a normal person types?
What is clear is that Jesus fulfilled that promise when He ascended to the Father.
There is nothing clear in your long sentences with all those distracting "enhancements".
So? Can't you just explain what you think is distinctly different?
Just making a claim is lame. Explain yourself.
[QUOE]...is not the same thing as saying,
--[what He will say to the Sheep [the righteous] of the nations, re: the earthly MK age] "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you FROM [apo (not "BEFORE / pro" used of others elsewhere)] the foundation of the world"[/QUOTE]
Who knows what you are even saying here, what with all your "enhancements" and nonsense. Can't you just type like a normal person types?
What is clear is that Jesus fulfilled that promise when He ascended to the Father.
There is nothing clear in your long sentences with all those distracting "enhancements".
So? Can't you just explain what you think is distinctly different?
Just making a claim is lame. Explain yourself.
Matt 27:32-33
And the graves opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (g1453).
And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
And what did this group do post-resurrection? Go back to their families, tentmaking, fishing and herds and flocks? I seriously doubt it.
Matt 26:32
But after I am risen again (g1453), I will go before you to Galilee.
If message board gaffes were dollars, you would be a millionaire by now.....
And the graves opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (g1453).
And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
And what did this group do post-resurrection? Go back to their families, tentmaking, fishing and herds and flocks? I seriously doubt it.
Matt 26:32
But after I am risen again (g1453), I will go before you to Galilee.
If message board gaffes were dollars, you would be a millionaire by now.....
@TheDivineWatermark @cv5
Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour.
If the Second Coming were to come 7 years after this extra half-Second Coming in pre-trib eschatology, then people would be able to count of seven years from the rapture. and know the day and hour.
Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour.
If the Second Coming were to come 7 years after this extra half-Second Coming in pre-trib eschatology, then people would be able to count of seven years from the rapture. and know the day and hour.
What is all of this supposed to be - an insinuation of some kind?
Fortunately, I don't care enough to be concerned - just curious more than anything.
(I am just trying to better understand your manner of communicating.)
What I found funny about what you said had to do with the connection between 'long-winded' and "being an elder" - I made no indication whatsoever about having - or not having - 'ambitions' to be an elder...
I could possibly actually be an elder at my church and still find it funny.
The intent of your ending comment above seems to be an insult or "put-down" - why do you say things like this?
This is the kind of thing I was talking about earlier.
Again - not everything you say, but a lot of it.
Why can't you be more agreeable with other members of CC? Or, do you just consider all of us to be 'heathen'?
(Of course, with the exception of @TheDivineWatermark and others who are in sufficient agreement with your views.)
Well - "enough said [for now] I guess" - was this 'lecture' as "long-winded" as the previous one?
Fortunately, I don't care enough to be concerned - just curious more than anything.
(I am just trying to better understand your manner of communicating.)
What I found funny about what you said had to do with the connection between 'long-winded' and "being an elder" - I made no indication whatsoever about having - or not having - 'ambitions' to be an elder...
I could possibly actually be an elder at my church and still find it funny.
The intent of your ending comment above seems to be an insult or "put-down" - why do you say things like this?
This is the kind of thing I was talking about earlier.
Again - not everything you say, but a lot of it.
Why can't you be more agreeable with other members of CC? Or, do you just consider all of us to be 'heathen'?
(Of course, with the exception of @TheDivineWatermark and others who are in sufficient agreement with your views.)
Well - "enough said [for now] I guess" - was this 'lecture' as "long-winded" as the previous one?
The 'pre-trib' view does in fact have "the whole church" being raptured together - at least up to the point that is assumed to be when it will take place.
However,...
They do not say much about the not-part-of-the-Bride component (OT saints) of those present with Christ in the air right after the rapture - other than that they are resurrected/raptured along with 'the church'.
~
Back when my age was a one-digit number, the 'pre-trib' view acknowledged that those who "come with Christ" were the souls of past dead-in-Christ saints - to be "reunited" with their old body - as-it or then-it - was "changed" into the glorified 'spiritual' body. And, there was never a question about this.
Also, there was never a question that Matthew 24:31 was talking about the rapture.
When the 'pre-trib' view has been confronted with "unanswered" scripture verses (that could not be explained successfully to fit into the 'pre-trib' view), eventually-and-ultimately, the 'pre-trib' view "evolved" in order to "answer" those "pesky" scripture verses.
Today, it is not the same as it was back then. Some 'pre-trib' folks on CC don't seem to acknowledge that those who "come with Christ" can [even possibly] be the souls from heaven of past saints - instead insisting that they must already have their glorified 'spiritual' body.
Therefore, the 'pre-trib' view seems to be an ongoing "twist and repackage" view of eschatology.
However,...
They do not say much about the not-part-of-the-Bride component (OT saints) of those present with Christ in the air right after the rapture - other than that they are resurrected/raptured along with 'the church'.
~
Back when my age was a one-digit number, the 'pre-trib' view acknowledged that those who "come with Christ" were the souls of past dead-in-Christ saints - to be "reunited" with their old body - as-it or then-it - was "changed" into the glorified 'spiritual' body. And, there was never a question about this.
Also, there was never a question that Matthew 24:31 was talking about the rapture.
When the 'pre-trib' view has been confronted with "unanswered" scripture verses (that could not be explained successfully to fit into the 'pre-trib' view), eventually-and-ultimately, the 'pre-trib' view "evolved" in order to "answer" those "pesky" scripture verses.
Today, it is not the same as it was back then. Some 'pre-trib' folks on CC don't seem to acknowledge that those who "come with Christ" can [even possibly] be the souls from heaven of past saints - instead insisting that they must already have their glorified 'spiritual' body.
Therefore, the 'pre-trib' view seems to be an ongoing "twist and repackage" view of eschatology.
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No, brother - sorry - you are wrong about this...
2 Corinthians 5:
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Revelation 20:
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Pay close attention to that last verse - it implies [directly] that there will be some who are found written in the book of life.
Also - these two passages are actually talking about the same thing - the 'BEMA' Judgment IS the Great White Throne Judgment - it is not a different Judgment - both Judgments are the same Judgment.
Why would any Christian not believe that there will be born-again people living during the 1000-reign of Christ?????
When do those people get their BEMA Judgment?
"There will only be one Judgment - and, everyone will be there!"
I believe that a lot of Christian folks assume that they are two separate Judgments - yet - I know of no scripture that actually verifies it to be true.
Please show me in scripture where it really actually indicates that they are separate Judgments - and not just assumed to be because someone thinks that they 'ought' to be...
2 Corinthians 5:
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Revelation 20:
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Pay close attention to that last verse - it implies [directly] that there will be some who are found written in the book of life.
Also - these two passages are actually talking about the same thing - the 'BEMA' Judgment IS the Great White Throne Judgment - it is not a different Judgment - both Judgments are the same Judgment.
Why would any Christian not believe that there will be born-again people living during the 1000-reign of Christ?????
When do those people get their BEMA Judgment?
"There will only be one Judgment - and, everyone will be there!"
I believe that a lot of Christian folks assume that they are two separate Judgments - yet - I know of no scripture that actually verifies it to be true.
Please show me in scripture where it really actually indicates that they are separate Judgments - and not just assumed to be because someone thinks that they 'ought' to be...