Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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Except the Gospel does teach eternal salvation.
I think the question then becomes one addressed toward those who don't accept that.
And the challenge then is to show in the Bible where everything God's grace bestows on the born again is able to be reversed if they are found unworthy if retaining God's eternal saving grace.
I know of no such teachings in scripture.
I think the question then becomes one addressed toward those who don't accept that.
And the challenge then is to show in the Bible where everything God's grace bestows on the born again is able to be reversed if they are found unworthy if retaining God's eternal saving grace.
I know of no such teachings in scripture.
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People throw around terms without being precise. Jesus work on the cross was perfect, complete, eternal and will never be repented of.
Therefore if you are talking about justification from sin, well that price was paid for by the blood of Jesus. It is pretty much that simple, but if you accept that then you enter into a covenant. In that covenant Jesus said that we should forgive others as he forgave us and if we do not forgive others then neither will the father in heaven forgive us. That is a straightforward and reasonable condition. Along those lines he also lays out some very serious sins like calling a brother a fool.
Now one of the very critical components to our covenant is the Lord's table. However we must take it in a worthy manner which specifically means if any brother or sister has been offended by us we need to go and reconcile with them first before partaking of the table.
So then being washed and justified by the blood is not a once for all thing, but rather something we must do frequently, even daily.
Now when you use the word "salvation" it can confuse people because there are many types of salvation that you can experience. Being saved from your sins is only one of them, being healed, having prayers answered, experiencing miracles in your life can also be seen as a salvation. Then there is the matter of sanctification. You can be the most sinful felon on death row and get saved from your sins. That can take place in a single prayer meeting. But you aren't sanctified. Your mind is not renewed. Whereas being justified can take place in a single day because Jesus has already done all the work, all you are doing is receiving what Jesus did. Being Sanctified is a lifelong process of being in the word of God, worshipping the Lord, praying, fellowshipping with others, being an active member in the church and investing the talent the Lord gave you according to the calling with which He called you.
The Christian life is all about having Jesus indwell us and that we grow in grace. We are supposed to grow up in Him in all things so that we could share in His glory and reign with Christ as the bride of Christ. Being justified is simply your ticket into this experience. No one can say you are too sinful to be a Christian. But the Christian life is much much more than that, we have a race that we are to run and we are to run with endurance and patience. How we run this race will determine whether or not we get the crown of life and it will determine whether or not we receive a reward or suffer loss.
Therefore if you are talking about justification from sin, well that price was paid for by the blood of Jesus. It is pretty much that simple, but if you accept that then you enter into a covenant. In that covenant Jesus said that we should forgive others as he forgave us and if we do not forgive others then neither will the father in heaven forgive us. That is a straightforward and reasonable condition. Along those lines he also lays out some very serious sins like calling a brother a fool.
Now one of the very critical components to our covenant is the Lord's table. However we must take it in a worthy manner which specifically means if any brother or sister has been offended by us we need to go and reconcile with them first before partaking of the table.
So then being washed and justified by the blood is not a once for all thing, but rather something we must do frequently, even daily.
Now when you use the word "salvation" it can confuse people because there are many types of salvation that you can experience. Being saved from your sins is only one of them, being healed, having prayers answered, experiencing miracles in your life can also be seen as a salvation. Then there is the matter of sanctification. You can be the most sinful felon on death row and get saved from your sins. That can take place in a single prayer meeting. But you aren't sanctified. Your mind is not renewed. Whereas being justified can take place in a single day because Jesus has already done all the work, all you are doing is receiving what Jesus did. Being Sanctified is a lifelong process of being in the word of God, worshipping the Lord, praying, fellowshipping with others, being an active member in the church and investing the talent the Lord gave you according to the calling with which He called you.
The Christian life is all about having Jesus indwell us and that we grow in grace. We are supposed to grow up in Him in all things so that we could share in His glory and reign with Christ as the bride of Christ. Being justified is simply your ticket into this experience. No one can say you are too sinful to be a Christian. But the Christian life is much much more than that, we have a race that we are to run and we are to run with endurance and patience. How we run this race will determine whether or not we get the crown of life and it will determine whether or not we receive a reward or suffer loss.
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Be back shortly to answer the questions asked to me. In the meanwhile, here are the 7 Amazing Promises in the Book of Revelation, for those who overcome. If we want these promises, we must labor, by God's Grace, to overcome, pride, greed, lust, etc and all other grave sins. As it is written: "Strive for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12:14).
"7 extraordinary promises for those who overcome
What is the reward for living a faithful life?
The 1st extraordinary promise: The tree of life
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” Revelation 2:7.
The 2nd extraordinary promise: You will not be hurt by the second death
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” Revelation 2:11.
The 3rd extraordinary promise: Hidden manna, a white stone, and a new name
“To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written, which no one knows except him who receives it.” Revelation 2:17.
The 4th extraordinary promise: Power over the nations, a rod of iron, and the morning star
“And he who overcomes and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations – ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’ – as I also have received from my Father; and I will give him the morning star.” Revelation 2:26-28.
The 5th extraordinary promise: White garments and the Book of Life
“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.” Revelation 3:5.
The 6th extraordinary promise: A pillar in the temple of My God
“He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.” Revelation 3:12.
The 7th extraordinary promise: Sit with Me on My Throne
“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” Revelation 3:21.
Taken from: https://activechristianity.org/7-extraordinary-promises-for-those-who-overcome
"7 extraordinary promises for those who overcome
What is the reward for living a faithful life?
The 1st extraordinary promise: The tree of life
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” Revelation 2:7.
The 2nd extraordinary promise: You will not be hurt by the second death
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” Revelation 2:11.
The 3rd extraordinary promise: Hidden manna, a white stone, and a new name
“To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written, which no one knows except him who receives it.” Revelation 2:17.
The 4th extraordinary promise: Power over the nations, a rod of iron, and the morning star
“And he who overcomes and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations – ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’ – as I also have received from my Father; and I will give him the morning star.” Revelation 2:26-28.
The 5th extraordinary promise: White garments and the Book of Life
“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.” Revelation 3:5.
The 6th extraordinary promise: A pillar in the temple of My God
“He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.” Revelation 3:12.
The 7th extraordinary promise: Sit with Me on My Throne
“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” Revelation 3:21.
Taken from: https://activechristianity.org/7-extraordinary-promises-for-those-who-overcome
So for the OSAS crowd, being justified from sin is not the same as overcoming.
So you may be justified from sin and yet you don't get to eat of the tree of life, you will be hurt by the second death, you will not get hidden manna, you will not get a white stone with a new name written on it, you will not rule the nations, you will not have white garments, your name will be blotted out of the book of life, you will not be a pillar in the temple of God and you will not sit with Jesus on His throne.
So you may be justified from sin and yet you don't get to eat of the tree of life, you will be hurt by the second death, you will not get hidden manna, you will not get a white stone with a new name written on it, you will not rule the nations, you will not have white garments, your name will be blotted out of the book of life, you will not be a pillar in the temple of God and you will not sit with Jesus on His throne.
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Read Ephesians 2 and notice all the times it says "in Christ" or "in the Lord." We have life if we remain in Him; otherwise, we don't.
The popular myth of regeneration says when we're born again we're "zapped" and are changed into an immortal being and it can never be reversed. But if that's case, why do we still sin? Why would we still need Christ?
If we remain in Christ we have life; we don't have life of ourselves. It's like being in a lifeboat (Christ) in the middle of the ocean; so long as we remain in the boat we're safe. If we go jump out and try to swim on our our own we've lost our safety and will perish.
One sin or one momentary lapse of faith won't disqualify you. It has to be a conscious, willful, and ongoing decision on our part to abandon Christ. God is patient, not wanting any to perish. He'll bend over backward to bring us back, but if we persist in rebellion we will sign our own death sentence.
"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins," Hebrews 10:26
The popular myth of regeneration says when we're born again we're "zapped" and are changed into an immortal being and it can never be reversed. But if that's case, why do we still sin? Why would we still need Christ?
If we remain in Christ we have life; we don't have life of ourselves. It's like being in a lifeboat (Christ) in the middle of the ocean; so long as we remain in the boat we're safe. If we go jump out and try to swim on our our own we've lost our safety and will perish.
One sin or one momentary lapse of faith won't disqualify you. It has to be a conscious, willful, and ongoing decision on our part to abandon Christ. God is patient, not wanting any to perish. He'll bend over backward to bring us back, but if we persist in rebellion we will sign our own death sentence.
"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins," Hebrews 10:26
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EDENgate said:
I'm curious. Where does it say we can be unregenerate and all the work God did in making us reborn in him is step by step undone if we disappoint?
Thanks.
The challenge for you is to find verses that clearly show that a sealed believer (in Christ, per Eph 1;13,14) can be unsealed.
Why are you calling the Bible a myth? That's exactly what the Bible teaches. Not that it uses silly words like "zapped". However, the Bible DOES teach that those who are in Christ are NEW CREATURES/NEW CREATION. So there's that. Which you seem to discount.
2 Cor 5:17. As for becoming an "immortal being", that doesn't occur until the resurrection.
We still sin because we STILL have our human nature, which is the sinful nature that Paul wrote about at length. Romans 6,7,8. And Gal 5. We don't lose the sinful human nature until we die.
So, why do we need Christ? He is the vine, and we are the branches. If you want to bear fruit for Him, you MUST abide in Him. That isn't about salvation, since Jesus was speaking to saved disciples when He told them about abiding in Him. He was referring to being IN fellowship with Him. Think of fellowship as being in harmony with Him. On the same page.
In a marriage, unless there is harmony between the spouses, there is no fellowship. Fellowship = harmony.
You want harmony with your Savior? Then be IN fellowship with Him. How do you get in fellowship with Him? 1 John 1:9 is the answer.
you do not understand what I am saying. You cannot separate yourself from Christ, even if you don't believe Eph 1:13,14, where Paul described that "having believed" the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit. I DARE you to try to break that seal. And there are no verses that say you can.
And you don't believe John 5:24 and 10:28 either.
Why don't you believe what Jesus SAID?
And you don't have any verses to back up your unbiblical claims.
For context, read Heb 10:18 first.
I'm curious. Where does it say we can be unregenerate and all the work God did in making us reborn in him is step by step undone if we disappoint?
Thanks.
The challenge for you is to find verses that clearly show that a sealed believer (in Christ, per Eph 1;13,14) can be unsealed.
Why are you calling the Bible a myth? That's exactly what the Bible teaches. Not that it uses silly words like "zapped". However, the Bible DOES teach that those who are in Christ are NEW CREATURES/NEW CREATION. So there's that. Which you seem to discount.
2 Cor 5:17. As for becoming an "immortal being", that doesn't occur until the resurrection.
We still sin because we STILL have our human nature, which is the sinful nature that Paul wrote about at length. Romans 6,7,8. And Gal 5. We don't lose the sinful human nature until we die.
So, why do we need Christ? He is the vine, and we are the branches. If you want to bear fruit for Him, you MUST abide in Him. That isn't about salvation, since Jesus was speaking to saved disciples when He told them about abiding in Him. He was referring to being IN fellowship with Him. Think of fellowship as being in harmony with Him. On the same page.
In a marriage, unless there is harmony between the spouses, there is no fellowship. Fellowship = harmony.
You want harmony with your Savior? Then be IN fellowship with Him. How do you get in fellowship with Him? 1 John 1:9 is the answer.
you do not understand what I am saying. You cannot separate yourself from Christ, even if you don't believe Eph 1:13,14, where Paul described that "having believed" the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit. I DARE you to try to break that seal. And there are no verses that say you can.
And you don't believe John 5:24 and 10:28 either.
Why don't you believe what Jesus SAID?
And you don't have any verses to back up your unbiblical claims.
For context, read Heb 10:18 first.
You missed the point altogether. Jesus said unlike your fathers who ate manna in the dessert and died.. We are to eat the food which we can eat and never die]
No, he said if they eat they will never die,
if they eat and die. then Jesus lied.
why do you continue to deny you are trying to save yourself by continuing to eat this food (the gospel or words of eternal life?)
No, he said if they eat they will never die,
if they eat and die. then Jesus lied.
why do you continue to deny you are trying to save yourself by continuing to eat this food (the gospel or words of eternal life?)
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OK then, I'll take that as a no. So you just make up stuff and spout it out as though you were some kind of authority. Got it. This is why I find all your posts to be boring and ignore them.
2 Examples
Thief on the cross -- 10 seconds
Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Leper is made clean -- 10 seconds
Matthew 8:2-3 And a leper came to Him and bowed down before Him, and said, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.” Jesus stretched out His hand and touched him, saying, “I am willing; be cleansed.” And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
2 Examples
Thief on the cross -- 10 seconds
Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Leper is made clean -- 10 seconds
Matthew 8:2-3 And a leper came to Him and bowed down before Him, and said, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.” Jesus stretched out His hand and touched him, saying, “I am willing; be cleansed.” And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
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once again, the problem lies into the fact that people seem to like to mix up all the salvation together. and claim if you do not recieve the one type of salvation. well then you recieve non of them
Justification is eternal salvation. there is no inbeltween. we are justified (declaired righteous) or we are not justified (guilty of the penalty of sin, which is death)
eternal life is based on justification. which is based on redemption, which is based on the cross. this salvation we are told is by grace through faith, not work. we are also told. it is done not of works of righteousness (good deeds) which we have done but by his mercy through the washing and regeneration of the HS
Sadly. many try to mix eternal salvation with the conditional salvation we call sanctification. which will be ongoing for the rest of our lives..
Eternal salvation is signed by the blood of Jesus and sealed by the HS given as a pledge
Sanctification is God working in our life. and us responding positive or negative to his work in our lives.. So it is ongoing and can change day to day, that is why many call it conditional sanctification (ass apposed to positional sanctification. which is being in christ via justification)
Paul said he continued to run the race. we are foolish to think if Paul was still running, we have made it..
Justification is eternal salvation. there is no inbeltween. we are justified (declaired righteous) or we are not justified (guilty of the penalty of sin, which is death)
eternal life is based on justification. which is based on redemption, which is based on the cross. this salvation we are told is by grace through faith, not work. we are also told. it is done not of works of righteousness (good deeds) which we have done but by his mercy through the washing and regeneration of the HS
Sadly. many try to mix eternal salvation with the conditional salvation we call sanctification. which will be ongoing for the rest of our lives..
Eternal salvation is signed by the blood of Jesus and sealed by the HS given as a pledge
Sanctification is God working in our life. and us responding positive or negative to his work in our lives.. So it is ongoing and can change day to day, that is why many call it conditional sanctification (ass apposed to positional sanctification. which is being in christ via justification)
Paul said he continued to run the race. we are foolish to think if Paul was still running, we have made it..
once again, You should stop trying to speak about people when you do not know what they believe,
You are false in your statement
this is what OSAS people believe about overcoming
1 John 5:
5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—[a]our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
You are false in your statement
this is what OSAS people believe about overcoming
1 John 5:
5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—[a]our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
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So you believe he was saved SOLELY on saying those words? No repentance. No faith, No work of God in his life to bring him to his knees. He just decided in a split second to say those words and walah, he is saved?
that just proves you have no clue about what happens in salvation. He did not just say those words.. He did many things to come to the point he said those words.
which is why you have to continually be corrected in everything you say,
that just proves you have no clue about what happens in salvation. He did not just say those words.. He did many things to come to the point he said those words.
which is why you have to continually be corrected in everything you say,
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What I believe is that Jesus is Lord not you. What I believe is that when you say things that are clearly not in the Bible like unbelievers have their names written in the book of life, or that no one has been saved with a 30 second prayer you should be called out because you are not speaking from the Bible, you have 0 authority and anyone who reads anything you say should be aware of this.
I also believe and hope all those on these forums would learn this principle that people who truly teach the word of God have the words of life. People who don't throw insults around like "you have no clue about what happens in salvation". They are also exceedingly arrogant as in "which is why you have to continually be corrected in everything you say".
I also believe that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. What he calls everlasting grace is really condemnation and slander, simply cloaked in a holier than thou I know more than you arrogant attitude. It is everlasting in the sense that it will be tossed into the fire that does not go out.
I also believe and hope all those on these forums would learn this principle that people who truly teach the word of God have the words of life. People who don't throw insults around like "you have no clue about what happens in salvation". They are also exceedingly arrogant as in "which is why you have to continually be corrected in everything you say".
I also believe that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. What he calls everlasting grace is really condemnation and slander, simply cloaked in a holier than thou I know more than you arrogant attitude. It is everlasting in the sense that it will be tossed into the fire that does not go out.
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Feel free to look up a Greek lexicon because the words eats is in the aorist tense. That means if someone continues to eat the bread from heaven then they will live forever.
This is what aorist tense means:
an unqualified past tense of a verb without reference to duration or completion of the action.
John 6:51
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
This is what aorist tense means:
an unqualified past tense of a verb without reference to duration or completion of the action.
John 6:51
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
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