The Remnant

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TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#81
@DavidTree ,

You are the one who said, in your Post #75:

DavidTree said:
The LORD Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul made a clear distinction between the Jews/Israel of the flesh and the Israel of God.

Both are referred to (and rightfully so) as the Israel of God -
It seems like you are "talking out of both sides of your mouth" ;)





[and to which idea I responded, no, they aren't BOTH referred to as "the Israel of God" (...nor are the Gentiles who believed / believe referred to as "the Israel of God"... though it is commonly repeated out there as if it were so)]
 
Aug 2, 2021
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#82
@DavidTree ,

You are the one who said, in your Post #75:



It seems like you are "talking out of both sides of your mouth" ;)





[and to which I responded, no, they aren't BOTH referred to as "the Israel of God"]
See Post 80 and review your understanding of the words of God concerning Israel of the flesh and who IT belongs to.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#83
Brother, i read your post.

Why are you unable to see what our LORD and the Apostles wrote about how the Israel of the flesh are not the Israel of God.

#1 That God created the Jewish people for His Glory upon which our Lord and Savior came in the flesh.

#2 That God has not cast away the Jewish People whom HE forenknew and HE has a plan to restore them.
Might as well whistle Dixie, that is not believed here for the most part.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
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#87
Another passage of scriptures that I have been pondering is found in Ezk 10th chapter, especially verse 10.
You're a good man for taking this on. I love reading these texts, but as said, God just hasn't opened my mind to Eschatology and I haven't done anything to learn of it. If I knew that I could live until I was 160 years old, then I'd study eschatology, but I may not live beyond tomorrow, so the Lord has impressed into me that I should understand the Gospel and Mysterious Plan of the Lord. God has given me one area that I am to understand, and it is how physical circumcision relates to Spiritual Circumcision. The entire Bible revolves around Spiritual Circumcision . . . even Eschatology. Those who are Righteous and Holy are those who have received the Circumcision of Christ. Those who are not Holy have not received the Circumcision of Christ and the remain held captive to the Devil (TO DO hIS WILL!) So even moving into the writings of Revelation, context can be gleaned by always processing them through Colossians 2:9-15.

Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

This is what is important to me, that people learn about Colossians 2:9-15. For some rather interesting set of reasons, pastors simply to not want to address the Seven perfect verses. Yes, seven of them. I recommend that all people memorize these incredible passages and watch their life change (from the Power of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit . . . and not of thy self). If a person would just take the time to process all Scripture through Colossians 2:9-15, they just might be shocked over how their perspective and perception of the Bible has changed.

So, and unfortunately, your amazing questions are beyond my comprehension. I haven't studied the Bible with the intention of answering any questions that deal with Eschatology. I know . . . it perplexes me too, but God is in control over my life and for whatever reason, He has chosen me to travel a specific path, and it appears that He has done the same thing with you. Therefore, I will depend upon the Body of Christ, which is you, and that you would possess the knowledge about these things so that you might instruct us, or at least me. :)


I will turn 88 years old in January
Ok . . . wow . . . good to know this! Much respect to you. Expect my support in the future. :)
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
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#88
As mentioned previously, Paul said blindness would come upon some of Israel
Not "some" but "most" . . .

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
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#89
Brother, i read your post.

Why are you unable to see what our LORD and the Apostles wrote about how the Israel of the flesh are not the Israel of God.

#1 That God created the Jewish people for His Glory upon which our Lord and Savior came in the flesh.

#2 That God has not cast away the Jewish People whom HE forenknew and HE has a plan to restore them.

#3 That the Spiritual Eternal Israel of God began in Genesis and because of Messiah's Sacrifice it includes ALL Nations whom God will call into One Body = the Body of Christ = the Israel of God.

#4 WHEN, the LORD Jesus Christ restores the Jewish People (Matthew 23:37) they will be grafted back into the ONE TREE of LIFE.

#5 There is only ONE TREE that believing Jews and Gentiles are assimulated into by the Blood of Yeshua the Messiah.
This is outstanding, David.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
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#90
#2 That God has not cast away the Jewish People whom HE forenknew and HE has a plan to restore them.
I never said He DOESN'T.

I said the phrase "the Israel of God" (as it is used in Gal6:16, and ONLY there) refers to THOSE OF [the nation of] ISRAEL WHO BELIEVED / BELIEVE.

It does not refer to all believers from all time, whether Jew or Gentile... That is to misapprehend the point Paul is conveying in Gal6.

The grammar itself clearly distinguishes between "[as many as WALK ACCORDING TO THIS RULE peace be ] [1] UPON THEM, and mercy, AND [2] UPON THE ISRAEL OF GOD" (each of these, THE BLUE AND THE GREEN are BELIEVERS / SAINTS... but it is the latter of these in this text who are ONLY those OF ISRAEL who BELIEVED / BELIEVE... not GENTILES who believed).




IOW, Gentiles who believe / believed are NOT whom Paul is calling "the Israel of God" here.


And those who think that way ^ (that it refers to ALL believers regardless) are usually the ones who also do NOT see a future place for Israel in God's scheme of things. (I DO see a future for Israel in God's plans, however.)
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#92
I never said He DOESN'T.

I said the phrase "the Israel of God" (as it is used in Gal6:16, and ONLY there) refers to THOSE OF [the nation of] ISRAEL WHO BELIEVED / BELIEVE.

It does not refer to all believers from all time, whether Jew or Gentile... That is to misapprehend the point Paul is conveying in Gal6.

The grammar itself clearly distinguishes between "[as many as WALK ACCORDING TO THIS RULE peace be ] [1] UPON THEM, and mercy, AND [2] UPON THE ISRAEL OF GOD" (each of these, THE BLUE AND THE GREEN are BELIEVERS / SAINTS... but it is the latter of these in this text who are ONLY those OF ISRAEL who BELIEVED / BELIEVE... not GENTILES who believed).




IOW, Gentiles who believe / believed are NOT whom Paul is calling "the Israel of God" here.


And those who think that way ^ (that it refers to ALL believers regardless) are usually the ones who also do NOT see a future place for Israel in God's scheme of things. (I DO see a future for Israel in God's plans, however.)
It is critical to understand the Gospel if we are to understand Galatians 6:16. First, we must include verse 15, and when doing so, it reads as follows:

Galatians 6:15-16 NKJV - "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God."

Verse 16 refers to a "rule." What rule is that? The rule is that physical circumcision does not grant Eternal Life. Instead, Spiritual Circumcision (of the heart) is what leads to becoming a New Creation, to be Made Alive by the Operative Hands of Jesus.

Therefore, those who have received this Spiritual Circumcision (of the Curse of the Lord) are considered a New Creation, grafted into the Vine, the new Israel that is Fathered by God, through the Hands of Christ, and led by the Holy Spirit. These are the "new people" of God.

Galatians 6:16 NLT - "May God's peace and mercy be upon all who live by this principle; they are the new people of God."

I highly encourage you to process all of Scripture through Colossians 2:9-15. It reads as follows:

Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

Respectfully . . . 2TG
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
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#93
It is critical to understand the Gospel if we are to understand Galatians 6:16. First, we must include verse 15, and when doing so, it reads as follows:
Galatians 6:15-16 NKJV - "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God."
Verse 16 refers to a "rule." What rule is that?
Right.

That is why I capitalized that phrase ("as many as WALK ACCORDING TO THIS RULE...") for EMPHASIS...

...before I went on to further show how the grammar itself distinguishes "[peace be] [1] UPON THEM" and mercy, "AND [2] UPON THE ISRAEL OF GOD"

...(the latter of these two (in the colors ^ ) speaks only of those OF ISRAEL who BELIEVED / BELIEVE..; It is not referencing Gentiles who believed, as though they are called "the Israel of God" [also], upon trusting in Christ / faithing, no... the latter group ^ is Paul speaking of those OF ISRAEL who believed / believe; he is, IN THIS CONTEXT, distinguishing between believers, in his instruction and exhortation... just as in other texts, he distinguishes [still] between women and men and gives direction / instruction concerning the one or the other of those);

This is NOT to say that 'I don't believe there is NO DISTINCTION between Jew and Gentile in our standing before God IN CHRIST,' of course there IS NO distinction, in that sense! (same for the terms "male and female"... right??); this text is instruction/direction to/for/about believers... it is not a passage laying out the doctrinal matter concerning "there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female [IN CHRIST]" [etc] which indeed is covered doctrinally in other passages.

The grammar itself clearly distinguishes between "[as many as WALK ACCORDING TO THIS RULE peace be ] [1] UPON THEM, and mercy, AND [2] UPON THE ISRAEL OF GOD"
Paul is distinguishing these two groups (as the grammar itself clearly shows us)... for the purposes of his specific address [/Subject], here in THIS CONTEXT. = )









ALL 73 instances of the use of "Israel" in the NT ALL mean "Israel," including this one in Gal6:16 (...however, context determines whether a verse or passage is referring to BELIEVING Israel, or those of Israel NOT believing).
 
Aug 2, 2021
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#94
Since Christians are sealed upon obedience to the gospel message they are not numbered in the 144,000
What makes you think that the 144,000 weren't Christian?
You know i missed that statement of Wansic = "Since Christians are sealed upon obedience to the gospel message they are not numbered in the 144,000."

Thanks for picking up on that.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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#95
There is a clear distinction made between the two groups of Tribulation saints. The account shows the first group consisting of 144,000 being sealed/marked. (Rev. 7:2-8) Since Christians are sealed upon obedience to the gospel message they are not numbered in the 144,000. And verse 9 specifically references that it is after the command to seal the 144,000 that a multitude that cannot be numbered is mentioned.

My thought on this is the tribes of the children of Israel are those who remain blind to the reality that Jesus was in fact their Messiah. And this occurs by the providence of God for a reason; of which only He knows the full. The 144,000 Jews alive at the time of the end, will be the descendants of those who have not wavered in their commitment to God in obedience to the OT mandates. And while patiently awaiting their Messiah will have reinstated the sacrificial system established by God. It may be that the false prophet will cause fire to come down from heaven to initiate the sacrificial system in the newly constructed third temple. If so, this counterfeit action will deceive many into worshipping the Antichrist. (Rev. 13:13)

What many fail to realize is the Book of Revelation is in fact the record of the revealing/unveiling of the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul mentions that the veil of blindness upon some of the nation of Israel is a mystery only known to God. And that it will occur once the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. And we know this fulfillment has not yet come. Many are still hearing and believing the gospel message. However, one thing is for sure. And that is they, too, will realize along with the very last Gentile saved that the coming of their Messiah is in fact His second coming.

The following website has some relevant information:
https://israelmyglory.org/article/the-restoration-of-israel-part-two/

Rev 7:2-8
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Those sealed numbered 144,000:

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:9
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"
How did you derive at this conclusion: "Since Christians are sealed upon obedience to the gospel message they are not numbered in the 144,000"
 
Aug 2, 2021
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#96
This is outstanding, David.
Keep up the fight of faith Brother whereby we follow the Highest Creed = Duet 4:1-2, Proverbs 30:5-6, Rev 22:18-19

"no lie is of the truth" = 1 John 2:21 AND "Thy word is truth" = John 17:17
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#97
A real bible student knows the Election are true seed of Israel, and the jews were grafted out. Some members here are wrong. They lack knowledge. I'm not talking down to anyone.

Psalm 135:4. For The Lord hath chosen Jacob unto Himself, and Israel for His treasure. Gods own possession, for His posterity. God wanted Israel separate from heathen nations. God wants pure worship. God hates heathen traditions and rituals. Can you understand this.

Genesis 48:10. The scepter shall not depart from judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; Judah has the right to rule, but ephraim and manasseh have the birthright and blessings. Shiloh is Jesus, he's coming at the 7th trump as king of kings. 49:22. Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall: 49:26. The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitor unto the utmost bound of the of the lasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

NAZIR in Hebrew means = set apart, the consecrated one. True Israel is blessed and has the birthright. In these end times, America, Britain are Blessed, they're ephraim and manasseh, get the picture. Genesis 17:4. As for he, behind, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 17:6. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful , and I will make nations of thee , and kings shall come out of thee. Abraham was the PROGENTOR, not only of Israel, but ISHMAEL, midian, arabians. Their half brothers.

The blessings are on Israel, which is America. Were talking about Joseph son ephraim. American people call themselves caucasian, they lost their true identity. Some people dont know who they are, even calling them selves gentiles. Isaiah 18:2. That send ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters, saying, Go , ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled. Is their any land on earth in Europe, Asia, Africa or Australia that is quartered by rivers? The Mississippi river takes its rise near the Canadian border and cuts down to the gulf of Mexico, dividing our land in halves. Its divided by four sections. Snake river, Missouri river, to Ohio river to the Monongahela river. Trodden down is, native American Indians defeated by American military. Peeled means clean shaven.

The 12 tribes of Israel came from Europe and Britain to America beginning in 1600s. America is Israel !. The remnant are Gods elect. Lot of people have free will. The election dont have free will. Romans 8:5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Colossians 3:2. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. PHRONEO in Greek means = affection, mind. Someone who has a Subverted mind, is self condemned. You cant reason with someone who has a Warped mind. Same as someone who is double minded, you can't count on the person. Those who follow the flesh, the temptation and enticements of the world, is not of God. These people affection is walking in darkness, their following the prince of darkness.

Romans 8:6. For to be CARNALLY minded is death; but to be spirtualty minded is life and peace. PHRONEMA means in Greek = the minding. The flesh leads to destruction and spirtualty leads to kingdom of God. Death is satan. Holy spirit is of God. Do you understand?. 8:7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subjective to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Those walking in the flesh dont want accountability. Its easier to shift blame or believe their own lies. Why should I repent to God, why should I obey God. 8:8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Galatians 5:16. This I say then, Walk in the spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh .ANTIKEIMAI in Greek means = Are Contrary. ME in Greek means = may not, can not. Opposition to God brings judgment. God can be your protection or your judge. Again, someone with a subverted mind will not get God's blessings or protection. Judgement starts with house of God. Anyone misleading or lying to people will pay for their sins. Second Peter 2:9. The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished. I dont take God seriously. Oh, you dont. Life is fun and games. Who can spin the wheel faster. Job 21:30. That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction. They shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. God has books, and keeps records of Everyone. Those who plant seeds of lies, mislead people, have spot in Hell. Your accountable to God for what you teach and preach. Judgement starts with house of God First !! If you hate the truth, then shove off!!.

Easier to read in this format. Certainly not easier to understand. Wow, someone want to attempt to handle this one? Waaaay out in left field, don't even know where to start.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
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#98
What makes you think that the 144,000 weren't Christian?
Scripture references judgement upon the earth being withheld until 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel are sealed for their protection. (Rev 7:2-4) Whereas Christians are sealed with the Holy Ghost as the result of having received their spiritual rebirth. (2 Cor. 1:22, Eph. 1:13)

I came across a commentary today that makes a couple points relevant to this topic. They bolstered what I have understood to be true for some time. "The 12 tribes are not "lost" as some contend."

Revelation 7:4-8:
"John heard the names of 12 tribes with 12,000 from each tribe...sealed and thus protected. The 12 tribes are not "lost" as some contend.
Attempts have been made to identify the 12 tribes here with the church, mostly to avoid the implication that this is literally Israel. The fact that specific tribes were mentioned and specific numbers from each tribe were indicated would seem to remove this from the symbolic and to justify literal interpretation. If God intended these verses to represent Israel literally, He would have used this means. Nowhere else in the Bible do a dozen references to the 12 tribes mean the church. Obviously Israel will be in the Tribulation, and though men do not know the identification of each tribe today, certainly God knows."
(from Bible Knowledge Commentary/Old Testament Copyright © 1983...All rights reserved.)
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
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#99
How did you derive at this conclusion: "Since Christians are sealed upon obedience to the gospel message they are not numbered in the 144,000"
As recorded in Romans chapter 11, those of the 12 tribes of Israel, who God blinded for His purposes, will be dealt with after the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
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How did you derive at this conclusion: "Since Christians are sealed upon obedience to the gospel message they are not numbered in the 144,000"
You would not have had to ask this question if you had taken the time to actually read the post to which you replied.

"My thought on this is the tribes of the children of Israel are those who remain blind to the reality that Jesus was in fact their Messiah. And this occurs by the providence of God for a reason; of which only He knows the full. The 144,000 Jews alive at the time of the end, will be the descendants of those who have not wavered in their commitment to God in obedience to the OT mandates. And while patiently awaiting their Messiah will have reinstated the sacrificial system established by God. It may be that the false prophet will cause fire to come down from heaven to initiate the sacrificial system in the newly constructed third temple. If so, this counterfeit action will deceive many into worshipping the Antichrist. (Rev. 13:13)

What many fail to realize is the Book of Revelation is in fact the record of the revealing/unveiling of the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul mentions that the veil of blindness upon some of the nation of Israel is a mystery only known to God. And that it will occur once the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. And we know this fulfillment has not yet come. Many are still hearing and believing the gospel message. However, one thing is for sure. And that is they, too, will realize along with the very last Gentile saved that the coming of their Messiah is in fact His second coming.

The following website has some relevant information:
https://israelmyglory.org/article/the-restoration-of-israel-part-two/

Rev 7:2-8
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Those sealed numbered 144,000:

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:9
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"