Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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The issue is not about Sid Roth per se. Also, it wasn't Sid himself, but a woman on his channel, who experienced going to hell because she lived in hatred of her neighbor (violation of the Second Great Commandment) and unforgiveness. And the Lord clearly said, "34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
This is what actually happened in her life. She too believed "free grace" preachers and so on and thought she could never go to Hell. But, while God is always Merciful, He is also All-Holy and All-Just, and His Word is Truth. Do we think He can change His Word because someone claims His Word means that unforgiveness can never cast us into hell, while He taught the opposite? In the end, we will all we be judged by what the Lord said, not by what any man said.
In a whatsapp group, I read just earlier today someone despairing that no one told him he could lose the Holy Spirit by deadly sins. And yet he experienced that happening to himself. I told him, confess the sin, and be forgiven, as 1 Jn 1:9 says. But what a tragedy that he wasn't taught right in the first place. OSAS harms Souls. That is clear. Very clear.
We should Pray the Lord's Prayer and mean it. In that Prayer, we ask God to be forgiven of our daily sins, just as we ourselves forgive those who sin against us, and as we ask Him for our Daily Bread, ask not to be led into temptation etc.
God Bless.
This is what actually happened in her life. She too believed "free grace" preachers and so on and thought she could never go to Hell. But, while God is always Merciful, He is also All-Holy and All-Just, and His Word is Truth. Do we think He can change His Word because someone claims His Word means that unforgiveness can never cast us into hell, while He taught the opposite? In the end, we will all we be judged by what the Lord said, not by what any man said.
In a whatsapp group, I read just earlier today someone despairing that no one told him he could lose the Holy Spirit by deadly sins. And yet he experienced that happening to himself. I told him, confess the sin, and be forgiven, as 1 Jn 1:9 says. But what a tragedy that he wasn't taught right in the first place. OSAS harms Souls. That is clear. Very clear.
We should Pray the Lord's Prayer and mean it. In that Prayer, we ask God to be forgiven of our daily sins, just as we ourselves forgive those who sin against us, and as we ask Him for our Daily Bread, ask not to be led into temptation etc.
God Bless.
I think it is quite clear that this debate is not about this doctrine or about two verses in the book of John.
Everyone on both sides has already agreed that you cannot tell if someone is saved simply because they say they are. The OSAS crowd says that once you are saved you are always saved unless of course in the future you live in sin in which case you never were saved. They don't deny that phony baloney pastors use this doctrine to justify their apostate church, they simply shrug it off saying that all doctrines are abused.
So then you can't use this doctrine to justify sin, you can't use this doctrine to claim you are saved when you are living in sin, and yet that is precisely what all those who are abusing this doctrine are doing.
So then what is the point of fighting tooth and nail for this doctrine?
The bible tells us not to look at what people say but rather what they do. You know false prophets by the fruit. So then this doctrine does not help you see which is the false teacher and which is the true.
Satan slanders the brethren, that should be a big tip off to anyone. Jesus has the words of life, Satan has accusatory words of condemnation, insults, mocking, ridicule, etc. That is what you are supposed to see. Satan knows the Bible, and he disguises himself as an angel of light. So knowing the Bible and appearing as an angel of light is not evidence that someone is not a false prophet. Slander, insults and stealing is. We were warned that wolves would sneak into the church and this is where we get the idea of "wolves in sheep's clothing". It is very clear that we have seen many "wolves" who were tele evangelists get exposed and what was the "sheep's clothing" they were wearing? It was OSAS.
The bottom line for me is that we all hope OSAS is true, but while on earth I will continue to "work out my salvation with fear and trembling" as Paul said. I will continue to repent of all sins, particularly slander, hate, and unforgiveness. No one can deny these are sins that will bring a terrible consequence if we allow them to get a root of bitterness in us.
Everyone on both sides has already agreed that you cannot tell if someone is saved simply because they say they are. The OSAS crowd says that once you are saved you are always saved unless of course in the future you live in sin in which case you never were saved. They don't deny that phony baloney pastors use this doctrine to justify their apostate church, they simply shrug it off saying that all doctrines are abused.
So then you can't use this doctrine to justify sin, you can't use this doctrine to claim you are saved when you are living in sin, and yet that is precisely what all those who are abusing this doctrine are doing.
So then what is the point of fighting tooth and nail for this doctrine?
The bible tells us not to look at what people say but rather what they do. You know false prophets by the fruit. So then this doctrine does not help you see which is the false teacher and which is the true.
Satan slanders the brethren, that should be a big tip off to anyone. Jesus has the words of life, Satan has accusatory words of condemnation, insults, mocking, ridicule, etc. That is what you are supposed to see. Satan knows the Bible, and he disguises himself as an angel of light. So knowing the Bible and appearing as an angel of light is not evidence that someone is not a false prophet. Slander, insults and stealing is. We were warned that wolves would sneak into the church and this is where we get the idea of "wolves in sheep's clothing". It is very clear that we have seen many "wolves" who were tele evangelists get exposed and what was the "sheep's clothing" they were wearing? It was OSAS.
The bottom line for me is that we all hope OSAS is true, but while on earth I will continue to "work out my salvation with fear and trembling" as Paul said. I will continue to repent of all sins, particularly slander, hate, and unforgiveness. No one can deny these are sins that will bring a terrible consequence if we allow them to get a root of bitterness in us.
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ZNP, Agreed.
Is Jonathan Cahn also a "kook" according to you?
"Why Sid Roth Is So Excited about Jonathan Cahn’s New Book
When you take a step back and look at the state of America you’re probably wondering, “how did we get here so quickly?” In what feels like a blink of an eye we’ve gone from a country proud of their biblical values to “cheer at our gay weddings or go to jail.”
I was in elementary school when the 1962 “Engel v. Vitale” Supreme Court decision came down to no longer have prayer in public schools. We used to say the Lord’s prayer in class but it’s been sixty years since that decision was made. That was just the beginning.
The Supreme Court’s vote addressed the government no longer sanctioning prayer in public school and most people agreed that wasn’t a bad thing. What I didn’t realize at the time was how the vote would open the door to ancient pagan gods. And this time seven times stronger.
In Rabbi Jonathan Cahn’s new book “The Return of the Gods” I was awakened to the deep revelation about ancient false gods of Israel influencing the same demonic activity thousands of years ago, again in America today.
I interviewed my longtime friend Sid Roth from “It’s Supernatural” to talk about the prophetic viewpoint in Cahn’s new book on my “Strang Report” podcast. He told me it’s the best book Cahn has ever written. Not only did he promote it on “It’s Supernatural,” but his ministry bought time on secular stations such as Newsmax TV. His hour-long show is so good you should watch it here. The first part is Cahn explaining his book and then Roth explains how he believes this will usher in a great revival.
“They [ancient gods] were involved in sexual sins in the temple areas, they were doing child sacrifice, and because he traced them, he found out what the attributes of these gods were and what they did to cause Israel to crumble from the inside out,” Roth told me.
That is exactly what they are trying today. Make America crumble from the inside out. Thankfully, we don’t have to go forward blindly. There is a real understanding of the problem that is going on and Christians need to pray and spread this crucial message."
https://charismamag.com/propheticre...s-so-excited-about-1-jonathan-cahns-new-book/
Today, the main issue in Christendom is whether you're a Conservative or a Liberal Christian. And if you're indifferent to these important battles on abortion, sodomy, prayer in schools etc, then you may as well be a liberal. Sid is no liberal.
Sid is clearly correct in what he says above. I haven't followed Jonathan Cahn that much, but from one of his prayers and sermons I watched last year, he too was spot on. I believe both Sid Roth and Jonathan Cahn are Messianic Jewish Christians.
God Bless.
Is Jonathan Cahn also a "kook" according to you?
"Why Sid Roth Is So Excited about Jonathan Cahn’s New Book
When you take a step back and look at the state of America you’re probably wondering, “how did we get here so quickly?” In what feels like a blink of an eye we’ve gone from a country proud of their biblical values to “cheer at our gay weddings or go to jail.”
I was in elementary school when the 1962 “Engel v. Vitale” Supreme Court decision came down to no longer have prayer in public schools. We used to say the Lord’s prayer in class but it’s been sixty years since that decision was made. That was just the beginning.
The Supreme Court’s vote addressed the government no longer sanctioning prayer in public school and most people agreed that wasn’t a bad thing. What I didn’t realize at the time was how the vote would open the door to ancient pagan gods. And this time seven times stronger.
In Rabbi Jonathan Cahn’s new book “The Return of the Gods” I was awakened to the deep revelation about ancient false gods of Israel influencing the same demonic activity thousands of years ago, again in America today.
I interviewed my longtime friend Sid Roth from “It’s Supernatural” to talk about the prophetic viewpoint in Cahn’s new book on my “Strang Report” podcast. He told me it’s the best book Cahn has ever written. Not only did he promote it on “It’s Supernatural,” but his ministry bought time on secular stations such as Newsmax TV. His hour-long show is so good you should watch it here. The first part is Cahn explaining his book and then Roth explains how he believes this will usher in a great revival.
“They [ancient gods] were involved in sexual sins in the temple areas, they were doing child sacrifice, and because he traced them, he found out what the attributes of these gods were and what they did to cause Israel to crumble from the inside out,” Roth told me.
That is exactly what they are trying today. Make America crumble from the inside out. Thankfully, we don’t have to go forward blindly. There is a real understanding of the problem that is going on and Christians need to pray and spread this crucial message."
https://charismamag.com/propheticre...s-so-excited-about-1-jonathan-cahns-new-book/
Today, the main issue in Christendom is whether you're a Conservative or a Liberal Christian. And if you're indifferent to these important battles on abortion, sodomy, prayer in schools etc, then you may as well be a liberal. Sid is no liberal.
Sid is clearly correct in what he says above. I haven't followed Jonathan Cahn that much, but from one of his prayers and sermons I watched last year, he too was spot on. I believe both Sid Roth and Jonathan Cahn are Messianic Jewish Christians.
God Bless.
So then, what is the harm?
1. Isn't it a good thing to help those being condemned by Satan to have the full assurance of salvation? Of course, that is like saying isn't it a good thing to help someone with a broken leg set it straight? The question is does this doctrine set it straight? I would encourage anyone who is being attacked by Satan to pray over the two verses in John they quote so much as well as many other verses. I would also point out a few common sense things like "unbelievers are never convicted by Satan that they aren't saved".
But I would not use this doctrine and this is why.
1. James said that teachers are held to a higher standard and will be judged more severely. Paul said that we need to be concerned about those who are weaker in the faith and how our teaching impacts them. When they shrug off the abuse of this doctrine, that is not good enough for me. You can't simply say that isn't me, the question you need to ask is that anyone who is listening to your teaching? Take a look at this thread and what each person has spoken, can it be misunderstood?
2. Jesus told us to pray "give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". This is supposed to be a daily practice, not a once and for all. Can anyone listen to your teaching and think it is once for all? That would concern me.
1. Isn't it a good thing to help those being condemned by Satan to have the full assurance of salvation? Of course, that is like saying isn't it a good thing to help someone with a broken leg set it straight? The question is does this doctrine set it straight? I would encourage anyone who is being attacked by Satan to pray over the two verses in John they quote so much as well as many other verses. I would also point out a few common sense things like "unbelievers are never convicted by Satan that they aren't saved".
But I would not use this doctrine and this is why.
1. James said that teachers are held to a higher standard and will be judged more severely. Paul said that we need to be concerned about those who are weaker in the faith and how our teaching impacts them. When they shrug off the abuse of this doctrine, that is not good enough for me. You can't simply say that isn't me, the question you need to ask is that anyone who is listening to your teaching? Take a look at this thread and what each person has spoken, can it be misunderstood?
2. Jesus told us to pray "give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". This is supposed to be a daily practice, not a once and for all. Can anyone listen to your teaching and think it is once for all? That would concern me.
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Ok. I was agreeing to this part of your post, particularly the bolded: "The bottom line for me is that we all hope OSAS is true, but while on earth I will continue to "work out my salvation with fear and trembling" as Paul said. I will continue to repent of all sins, particularly slander, hate, and unforgiveness. No one can deny these are sins that will bring a terrible consequence if we allow them to get a root of bitterness in us."
God Bless.
God Bless.
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RA, ok. That's your opinion. I don't agree, but we will see. Yes, we will all know one day, the Day of Judgment, when everything will be made plain: "For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open." (Luk 8:17)
Anyway, back to the topic. I found this link, which covers numerous Scriptures that proves OSAS is incorrect. Most of them were discussed here. Some were not.
For your reference: https://starchaser57.livejournal.com/58174.html
Posting just the intro here below: "Behind the cut are at least 170 scriptures that prove osas is a lie with the explanations. It is huge and I am going to add to it off and on.
In order to believe that osas is truth, which it isn't, one has to cut out the follow passages from the Bible completely or twist them into meaning something they do not.
But when a person is honest with the word of God and actually decides to believe EVERYTHING God says about justification and eternal salvation, as in who will or will not enter heaven, the once saved always saved lie doesn't stand up. Compare osas to the scripture and osas melts away in the light of God's truth. If you can really be honest . . ..
Here are over 100 scriptures ...
[Scriptures in the link]
God Bless.
Anyway, back to the topic. I found this link, which covers numerous Scriptures that proves OSAS is incorrect. Most of them were discussed here. Some were not.
For your reference: https://starchaser57.livejournal.com/58174.html
Posting just the intro here below: "Behind the cut are at least 170 scriptures that prove osas is a lie with the explanations. It is huge and I am going to add to it off and on.
In order to believe that osas is truth, which it isn't, one has to cut out the follow passages from the Bible completely or twist them into meaning something they do not.
But when a person is honest with the word of God and actually decides to believe EVERYTHING God says about justification and eternal salvation, as in who will or will not enter heaven, the once saved always saved lie doesn't stand up. Compare osas to the scripture and osas melts away in the light of God's truth. If you can really be honest . . ..
Here are over 100 scriptures ...
[Scriptures in the link]
God Bless.
Ok, let me post some of the passages, particularly those that may not have been covered in this thread itself. 1 Tim 4:16 was a new one to me, that I'd read before, but didn't recall in this context. It too says we are to persevere to receive final salvation. It also says that by persevering in sound doctrine we will not only ourselves be saved but also help save others.
"I Timothy 4:16.
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
What happens if Timothy doesn't watch his life and doctrine closely? What if Timothy doesn't persevere in them? Paul says if he does watch his life and doctrine closely and persevere in them he and hears will be saved in the end. He implies very clearly that if Timothy doesn't then Timothy and his hears will not be saved in the end. Does anyone doubt that Timothy was a born again Christian when Paul wrote this? If once saved always saved were true, why would Paul waste time writing this to Timothy? ...
1 Corinthians 9
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Wow . . . . Paul the grace writer says that he keeps body under and makes it a slave so that after he has preached to others he will not be disqualified for the prize."
"I Timothy 4:16.
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
What happens if Timothy doesn't watch his life and doctrine closely? What if Timothy doesn't persevere in them? Paul says if he does watch his life and doctrine closely and persevere in them he and hears will be saved in the end. He implies very clearly that if Timothy doesn't then Timothy and his hears will not be saved in the end. Does anyone doubt that Timothy was a born again Christian when Paul wrote this? If once saved always saved were true, why would Paul waste time writing this to Timothy? ...
1 Corinthians 9
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Wow . . . . Paul the grace writer says that he keeps body under and makes it a slave so that after he has preached to others he will not be disqualified for the prize."
Continued:
"
1 Corinthians 10
11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
Galatians. 5:16-21.
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature [literally, "flesh"]. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this [KJV, "do such things"] will not inherit the kingdom of God.
If a Christian cannot lose his salvation no matter what, Paul should have said, "You people don't need to worry if you are sexual immoral, impure, hate, jealous and so on. You will sin in thought, word, and deed every day. It is okay. Just ask for forgiveness every night. You don't ever have to worry about being holy."
Paul is telling this born again Galatians that they must do these things because if these Christians do these things, they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God go to hell not heaven. If a Christian could not lose his salvation ever then Paul is wasting his time telling these Christians that they must not commit these sins."
"
1 Corinthians 10
11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
Galatians. 5:16-21.
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature [literally, "flesh"]. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this [KJV, "do such things"] will not inherit the kingdom of God.
If a Christian cannot lose his salvation no matter what, Paul should have said, "You people don't need to worry if you are sexual immoral, impure, hate, jealous and so on. You will sin in thought, word, and deed every day. It is okay. Just ask for forgiveness every night. You don't ever have to worry about being holy."
Paul is telling this born again Galatians that they must do these things because if these Christians do these things, they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God go to hell not heaven. If a Christian could not lose his salvation ever then Paul is wasting his time telling these Christians that they must not commit these sins."
I took a quick look at that link. The author is committing massive, massive exegetical errors. It's quite a mess.
Anyway.......Judas was granted exousia along with everyone else. Was he saved? Ever? Or did he "fall away" towards the end, when (as far as he was concerned) it all went downhill?
Mat 10:1
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power G1849 against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Anyway.......Judas was granted exousia along with everyone else. Was he saved? Ever? Or did he "fall away" towards the end, when (as far as he was concerned) it all went downhill?
Mat 10:1
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power G1849 against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
1Co 11:27
Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
1Co 11:29
For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks ???judgment??? to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
1Co 11:30
For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31
For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
1Co 11:32
But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
1Co 11:29
For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks ???judgment??? to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
1Co 11:30
For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31
For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
1Co 11:32
But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
Don't regurgitate what I've told YOU. Jesus' words are TOO CLEAR to be misunderstood, and YOU have chosen to reject His Words.
He never said "will not go to heaven". That's just your imagination being deceived.
How can you say you "love souls, esp Christians" when you flat-out reject the truth that Jesus spoke about the result of being given the gift of eternal life?
Teaching anyone the exact opposite of what Jesus taught is to hate others.
No one "goes to heaven" on the basis of 1 John 1:9. It seems you understand nothing of the Bible. 1 John 1:9 is about restoring fellowship (harmony) with the Lord after sinning and needing cleansing. Without confession, there will be no spiritual growth.
What heresy!!
You think there are sins that will send a believer, who has been given eternal life, to hell. Exactly opposite of what Jesus taught.
Do you know who WILL be condemned?
John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Both verses have the SAME words: "have not believed". Do you know what that means? "have NEVER believed".
That's who will be condemned; those who never believed. Your claims are totally unbiblical.
I rely on the straightforward words of Jesus, unlike yourself.
Prove to me that Jesus DIDN'T say that those He gives eternal life shall never perish, and that He said something else.
You have no verse that says this, so I don't accept your unbiblical opinion. If an apostate had "ever believed" then they will NOT be condemned, as Jn 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 says.
And, if they "ever believed", they were given eternal life, and Jesus said they shall never perish.
This is all way too clear to understand for your unbiblical opinions.
If you really knew English, you would know that v.27 has NO bearing on v.28 and the result of being given eternal life.
v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO, or ought to do. There is no condition in v.27 that leads to v.28, as you wrongly claim.
Go ahead and reject the clear words of Jesus.
He never said "will not go to heaven". That's just your imagination being deceived.
How can you say you "love souls, esp Christians" when you flat-out reject the truth that Jesus spoke about the result of being given the gift of eternal life?
Teaching anyone the exact opposite of what Jesus taught is to hate others.
No one "goes to heaven" on the basis of 1 John 1:9. It seems you understand nothing of the Bible. 1 John 1:9 is about restoring fellowship (harmony) with the Lord after sinning and needing cleansing. Without confession, there will be no spiritual growth.
What heresy!!
You think there are sins that will send a believer, who has been given eternal life, to hell. Exactly opposite of what Jesus taught.
Do you know who WILL be condemned?
John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Both verses have the SAME words: "have not believed". Do you know what that means? "have NEVER believed".
That's who will be condemned; those who never believed. Your claims are totally unbiblical.
I rely on the straightforward words of Jesus, unlike yourself.
Prove to me that Jesus DIDN'T say that those He gives eternal life shall never perish, and that He said something else.
You have no verse that says this, so I don't accept your unbiblical opinion. If an apostate had "ever believed" then they will NOT be condemned, as Jn 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 says.
And, if they "ever believed", they were given eternal life, and Jesus said they shall never perish.
This is all way too clear to understand for your unbiblical opinions.
If you really knew English, you would know that v.27 has NO bearing on v.28 and the result of being given eternal life.
v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO, or ought to do. There is no condition in v.27 that leads to v.28, as you wrongly claim.
Go ahead and reject the clear words of Jesus.
FreeGrace2 said:Why did you stop at v.13? Because v.14 REFUTES your unbiblical claim.
v.14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Apparently you don't believe this verse either. So, why is the "deposit"? The Holy Spirit IN the believer.
What is this "deposit" for? GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE.
How long is this inheritance? "until the REDEMPTION OF THOSE WHO ARE GOD'S POSSESSION.
So, who are God's possession? Those who "having believed" (v.13) [notice the past tense] have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, who GUARANTEES their inheritance until the "redemption", meaing the resurrection.
When YOU read both verses, you should realize that your view of v.13 is WRONG.
The ONLY proof of this being true would be a verse that plainly explains that losing faith means losing our sealing. And you don't have any such verses. Just your opinion.
You don't even understand v.13, nor the clear implications of v.14.
Based on what v.13 teaches, consider these verses:
Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Even idiot believers who GRIEVE the Holy Spirit (nothing about "breaking the seal" nonsense) are STILL sealed for the day of redemption. Not even close to the idea of losing salvation.
2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Now, could you please explain what Paul meant by "guaranteeing what is to come" in these 2 verses.
Of course. v.13 says "having believed". That's who are sealed with the Holy Spirit. So the guarantee in v.14 is for those "having believed".
Yes.
Yes. What is your point?
I suppose you think a choice to no longer believe releases Jesus' promise about those He gives eternal life??? Why? Prove it with Scripture, not your opinion.
Of course it is very clear. Those who "have believed" ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit that guarantees the believer's inheritance.
Not your fuzzy logic.
You didn't answer my question regarding 2 Cor 1:21 and 5:5. Do you have an answer?
2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Now, could you please explain what Paul meant by "guaranteeing what is to come" in these 2 verses.
v.14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Apparently you don't believe this verse either. So, why is the "deposit"? The Holy Spirit IN the believer.
What is this "deposit" for? GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE.
How long is this inheritance? "until the REDEMPTION OF THOSE WHO ARE GOD'S POSSESSION.
So, who are God's possession? Those who "having believed" (v.13) [notice the past tense] have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, who GUARANTEES their inheritance until the "redemption", meaing the resurrection.
When YOU read both verses, you should realize that your view of v.13 is WRONG.
The ONLY proof of this being true would be a verse that plainly explains that losing faith means losing our sealing. And you don't have any such verses. Just your opinion.
You don't even understand v.13, nor the clear implications of v.14.
Based on what v.13 teaches, consider these verses:
Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Even idiot believers who GRIEVE the Holy Spirit (nothing about "breaking the seal" nonsense) are STILL sealed for the day of redemption. Not even close to the idea of losing salvation.
2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Now, could you please explain what Paul meant by "guaranteeing what is to come" in these 2 verses.
Of course. v.13 says "having believed". That's who are sealed with the Holy Spirit. So the guarantee in v.14 is for those "having believed".
Yes.
Yes. What is your point?
I suppose you think a choice to no longer believe releases Jesus' promise about those He gives eternal life??? Why? Prove it with Scripture, not your opinion.
Of course it is very clear. Those who "have believed" ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit that guarantees the believer's inheritance.
Not your fuzzy logic.
You didn't answer my question regarding 2 Cor 1:21 and 5:5. Do you have an answer?
2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Now, could you please explain what Paul meant by "guaranteeing what is to come" in these 2 verses.
FreeGrace2 said:
The problem is with those who make the claim that salvation can be lost for any reason. You know that there are no verses that teach this. It is a distorted view of the Bible.
OK then. Go ahead and attest. Prove my statement is wrong or untrue by providing any verse that says differently.
And I'm talking about clearly stated verses where there can be no doubt about it.
So, how is it like that? Explain.
The problem is with those who make the claim that salvation can be lost for any reason. You know that there are no verses that teach this. It is a distorted view of the Bible.
OK then. Go ahead and attest. Prove my statement is wrong or untrue by providing any verse that says differently.
And I'm talking about clearly stated verses where there can be no doubt about it.
So, how is it like that? Explain.
So then, Jesus LIED, huh. He said believers have eternal life and recipients of eternal life shall never perish. So she perished, which would prove that Jesus LIED. Or, maybe He was just confused and forgot some of what He was supposed to teach. Is that how you read it?
Why don't you understand that when a believer is unforgiven, it means they are OUT OF fellowship with the Lord. Not condemned to hell. Since Jesus died for the sins of everyone, there is NO SIN that can send anyone to hell, saved or unsaved.
Don't you know what sends people to hell? Read Rev 20:15 and get back to me with your answer.
Quite the gullible person, you are.
Are you kidding?????!!!!! Here you are, claiming God's "Word is Truth" yet you trample the clear teaching of Jesus. He taught that those given eternal life shall never perish. There is NO condition attached to that promise for never perishing, yet here you are, clearly opposing Jesus' "Words of Truth". You are a hypocrite.
He taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, and you have the GALL to reject that truth.
Of course, everyone will be judged by the Lord, but NONE of the judging, whether at the Bema or the GWT judgment, will be for whether the person will end up in the LOF.
You are obviously in great error of Scripture if you think people will be sent to the LOF on the basis of any sins.
Why don't you understand that when a believer is unforgiven, it means they are OUT OF fellowship with the Lord. Not condemned to hell. Since Jesus died for the sins of everyone, there is NO SIN that can send anyone to hell, saved or unsaved.
Don't you know what sends people to hell? Read Rev 20:15 and get back to me with your answer.
Quite the gullible person, you are.
Are you kidding?????!!!!! Here you are, claiming God's "Word is Truth" yet you trample the clear teaching of Jesus. He taught that those given eternal life shall never perish. There is NO condition attached to that promise for never perishing, yet here you are, clearly opposing Jesus' "Words of Truth". You are a hypocrite.
He taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, and you have the GALL to reject that truth.
Of course, everyone will be judged by the Lord, but NONE of the judging, whether at the Bema or the GWT judgment, will be for whether the person will end up in the LOF.
You are obviously in great error of Scripture if you think people will be sent to the LOF on the basis of any sins.