Is faith a work?
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Well, that would be YOU. You don't like to be bothered by the facts of Greek grammar, so you default to your own feelings.
Says the guy who dismisses the facts of Greek grammar in favor of his own feelings.
You really have a knack for being very nasty. I don't find that "quality" listed in the fruit of the Spirit.
I know exactly what my sentences say and mean. You are the one demonstrating either a total inability to comprehend, or simply rejection of facts.
Says the guy who dismisses the facts of Greek grammar in favor of his own feelings.
You really have a knack for being very nasty. I don't find that "quality" listed in the fruit of the Spirit.
I know exactly what my sentences say and mean. You are the one demonstrating either a total inability to comprehend, or simply rejection of facts.
I'm not fond of your posting style, plus the leng of this one, so I will only go to the bottom line and reply.
Please kindly point out what inconsistencies/contradictions you have perceived in my posts, with explanations of why they are.
Also, please kindly point out any error on my part regarding what you "perceive" as my view of Calvin/Calvinists.
Huh? Where/when/ did you ask for specific examples? And examples of what, exactly?
As a practicing Berean from Acts 17:11, that's how I study what others claim.
If you want to call inspired Scripture a dogma, ok.
But what you are really doing is copping-out from having to explain or answer what you do not want to. It's a common practice for posers.
Please kindly point out what inconsistencies/contradictions you have perceived in my posts, with explanations of why they are.
Also, please kindly point out any error on my part regarding what you "perceive" as my view of Calvin/Calvinists.
Huh? Where/when/ did you ask for specific examples? And examples of what, exactly?
As a practicing Berean from Acts 17:11, that's how I study what others claim.
If you want to call inspired Scripture a dogma, ok.
But what you are really doing is copping-out from having to explain or answer what you do not want to. It's a common practice for posers.
So then, I guess you don't believe that "Conversion" is progressive either?
While I do believe that God is totally Sovereign over all things - it seems you are minimizing our responsibilities once initially Regenerated, Indwelled (God's Sovereign work) and believe (Our responsibility). God works in us and through us to do His Good Pleasure but we are not absent in this process.
It is our responsibility to grow in knowledge and grace. God gives the increase but believer's must "seek" it. Some believers study the Scriptures day and night, others not so much. Likewise, believers are to mortify the deeds of the flesh. The Holy Spirit aids us in this endeavor but it is our flesh and we must desire to mortify and keep it under control. The believer cannot just sit back and believe that God is going to do everything for him.
While I do believe that God is totally Sovereign over all things - it seems you are minimizing our responsibilities once initially Regenerated, Indwelled (God's Sovereign work) and believe (Our responsibility). God works in us and through us to do His Good Pleasure but we are not absent in this process.
It is our responsibility to grow in knowledge and grace. God gives the increase but believer's must "seek" it. Some believers study the Scriptures day and night, others not so much. Likewise, believers are to mortify the deeds of the flesh. The Holy Spirit aids us in this endeavor but it is our flesh and we must desire to mortify and keep it under control. The believer cannot just sit back and believe that God is going to do everything for him.
I certainly agree, that everything changes when a person is born from above - Regenerated. The base Theological meaning, of the term Regenerated, means: To energize. You said, gifted with faith, as if Faith makes one alive. It does not. Mankind is born with "faith" but this is not saving faith. Perhaps we should look at Regeneration a bit closer.
First, why the need for the regenerative work of the Spirit.
Man is "dead", - Spiritually speaking and he will die physically - because of our solidarity with Adam. (Rom. 5:14 & 15) All mankind sins because we are born sinners - we are not sinners because we sin. (Psa. 51:5; 58:3) It is a condition brought upon us all because Adam failed as our "Federal Head". (And so would we all. Rom. 5:18) So we are all dead in our Trespass and Sin. Adam died immediately - not physically - and was separated from God spiritually upon his trespass.
Therefore, mankind can do nothing, as to spiritual things, until God energizes his dead spirit. The natural man possesses a spirit that is like a dead battery. The Holy Spirit comes and Regenerates or energizes this dead battery. We receive this Sovereign work but just as a dead battery cannot energize itself, we have no part in it's regeneration. This Regeneration imparts, to the recipient, new spiritual life. It makes what was inoperative - operative. It alters our nature, from one at enmity with God and His Truth, to one who loves God and His Truth. (The removal of our stony heart and the gift of a fleshy heart). The Spirit Himself indwells the regenerated individual.
There are many outgrowths of this change. The one being a change in our natural faith - to a faith that is directed to the Gospel and the Lord Jesus Christ. While "faith" is not responsible for Regeneration - Regeneration is responsible for the "faith". As, such... faith can be called a gift of God, since all things grow out of this single act of Regeneration.
Take care and God keep you.
First, why the need for the regenerative work of the Spirit.
Man is "dead", - Spiritually speaking and he will die physically - because of our solidarity with Adam. (Rom. 5:14 & 15) All mankind sins because we are born sinners - we are not sinners because we sin. (Psa. 51:5; 58:3) It is a condition brought upon us all because Adam failed as our "Federal Head". (And so would we all. Rom. 5:18) So we are all dead in our Trespass and Sin. Adam died immediately - not physically - and was separated from God spiritually upon his trespass.
Therefore, mankind can do nothing, as to spiritual things, until God energizes his dead spirit. The natural man possesses a spirit that is like a dead battery. The Holy Spirit comes and Regenerates or energizes this dead battery. We receive this Sovereign work but just as a dead battery cannot energize itself, we have no part in it's regeneration. This Regeneration imparts, to the recipient, new spiritual life. It makes what was inoperative - operative. It alters our nature, from one at enmity with God and His Truth, to one who loves God and His Truth. (The removal of our stony heart and the gift of a fleshy heart). The Spirit Himself indwells the regenerated individual.
There are many outgrowths of this change. The one being a change in our natural faith - to a faith that is directed to the Gospel and the Lord Jesus Christ. While "faith" is not responsible for Regeneration - Regeneration is responsible for the "faith". As, such... faith can be called a gift of God, since all things grow out of this single act of Regeneration.
Take care and God keep you.
You said:
It makes more sense that God requires our faith, at least initially, or it would undermine the command for there being a Great Commission, going into all the world, preaching the gospel, and missionary work. God can increase our faith afterwards.
Why is it so hard to understand that the Gospel must be preached indiscriminately because one cannot know who has been prepared for the Word. The Great Commission is for the "general" proclamation of the Gospel but the one proclaiming cannot know who it is that has been Regenerated and as such can "hear" the message. Thus, the message is only "effectual" to those who are regenerated.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word. (Unregenerate)
Mat_13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear. (Regenerate)
You said:
God is patient, not wanting anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Who are the "to us-ward" or the "toward us"? All of mankind? Certainly not. If that was true then all mankind would be saved. If God is not willing that any should perish, then non would perish - for who can stand against His will? Obviously then, the "toward us" refers to God's Elect.
You said:
"God requires faith, but He only gives faith as a gift to certain people. Meanwhile, He is desiring that everyone repents, but for those who weren't given faith their repentance is futile, ineffective, and they're going to perish anyway even though God doesn't want them to perish; however, He selects who perishes and who is saved by the gift of faith."
Let's break this down:
"God requires faith, but He only gives faith as a gift to certain people.
Faith is an outgrowth of Regeneration. Since Regeneration is the Sovereign work of the Spirit and the recipient is "passive" in it's reception, this act makes the recipient "able" to "hear" the Gospel. Saving faith is an outgrowth of this new nature and as such can be called a gift.
Meanwhile, He is desiring that everyone repents, but for those who weren't given faith their repentance is futile, ineffective, and they're going to perish anyway even though God doesn't want them to perish
As mentioned above, this is not the proper interpretation of 2 Pet. 3:9. From John Gill:
but is longsuffering to us-ward: not to all the individuals of human nature, for the persons intended by us are manifestly distinguished from "some men" in the text, and from scoffers, mocking at the promise of Christ's coming, in the context, 2Pe_3:3; and are expressly called beloved, 2Pe_3:1; and God's longsuffering towards them is their salvation, 2Pe_3:15, nor is it true of all men, that God is not willing that any of them should perish, and that everyone of them should come to repentance, since many of them do perish in their sins, and do not come to repentance, which would not be the case, if his determining will was otherwise; besides, a society or company of men are designed, to which the apostle himself belonged, and of which he was a part; and who are described, in his epistles, as the elect of God, called out of darkness, into marvelous light, and having obtained like precious faith with the apostles; and must be understood either of God's elect among the Jews; [edit] or of the elect in general, whether among Jews or Gentiles, upon whom the Lord waits to be gracious, and whose longsuffering issues in their conversion and salvation. And upon account of these the Lord stays his coming till their number is complete in the effectual calling; and for their sakes he is longsuffering to others, and bears with a wicked world, with the idolatry, superstition, heresy, profaneness, and impiety, with which it abounds; but when the last man that belongs to that number is called, he will quickly descend in flames of fire, and burn the world, and the wicked in it, and take his chosen ones to himself.
The Alexandrian copy reads, "for you", or your sakes; and so the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions. A passage somewhat like to this is met with in a book of the Jews (f), esteemed by them very ancient.
He selects who perishes and who is saved by the gift of faith."
NO. He selected who perishes and who is saved by Election. He then Predestinated those who were elected to salvation. Election is an essential part of God's Grace and guarantees "faith" upon Regeneration.
It makes more sense that God requires our faith, at least initially, or it would undermine the command for there being a Great Commission, going into all the world, preaching the gospel, and missionary work. God can increase our faith afterwards.
Why is it so hard to understand that the Gospel must be preached indiscriminately because one cannot know who has been prepared for the Word. The Great Commission is for the "general" proclamation of the Gospel but the one proclaiming cannot know who it is that has been Regenerated and as such can "hear" the message. Thus, the message is only "effectual" to those who are regenerated.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word. (Unregenerate)
Mat_13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear. (Regenerate)
You said:
God is patient, not wanting anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Who are the "to us-ward" or the "toward us"? All of mankind? Certainly not. If that was true then all mankind would be saved. If God is not willing that any should perish, then non would perish - for who can stand against His will? Obviously then, the "toward us" refers to God's Elect.
You said:
"God requires faith, but He only gives faith as a gift to certain people. Meanwhile, He is desiring that everyone repents, but for those who weren't given faith their repentance is futile, ineffective, and they're going to perish anyway even though God doesn't want them to perish; however, He selects who perishes and who is saved by the gift of faith."
Let's break this down:
"God requires faith, but He only gives faith as a gift to certain people.
Faith is an outgrowth of Regeneration. Since Regeneration is the Sovereign work of the Spirit and the recipient is "passive" in it's reception, this act makes the recipient "able" to "hear" the Gospel. Saving faith is an outgrowth of this new nature and as such can be called a gift.
Meanwhile, He is desiring that everyone repents, but for those who weren't given faith their repentance is futile, ineffective, and they're going to perish anyway even though God doesn't want them to perish
As mentioned above, this is not the proper interpretation of 2 Pet. 3:9. From John Gill:
but is longsuffering to us-ward: not to all the individuals of human nature, for the persons intended by us are manifestly distinguished from "some men" in the text, and from scoffers, mocking at the promise of Christ's coming, in the context, 2Pe_3:3; and are expressly called beloved, 2Pe_3:1; and God's longsuffering towards them is their salvation, 2Pe_3:15, nor is it true of all men, that God is not willing that any of them should perish, and that everyone of them should come to repentance, since many of them do perish in their sins, and do not come to repentance, which would not be the case, if his determining will was otherwise; besides, a society or company of men are designed, to which the apostle himself belonged, and of which he was a part; and who are described, in his epistles, as the elect of God, called out of darkness, into marvelous light, and having obtained like precious faith with the apostles; and must be understood either of God's elect among the Jews; [edit] or of the elect in general, whether among Jews or Gentiles, upon whom the Lord waits to be gracious, and whose longsuffering issues in their conversion and salvation. And upon account of these the Lord stays his coming till their number is complete in the effectual calling; and for their sakes he is longsuffering to others, and bears with a wicked world, with the idolatry, superstition, heresy, profaneness, and impiety, with which it abounds; but when the last man that belongs to that number is called, he will quickly descend in flames of fire, and burn the world, and the wicked in it, and take his chosen ones to himself.
The Alexandrian copy reads, "for you", or your sakes; and so the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions. A passage somewhat like to this is met with in a book of the Jews (f), esteemed by them very ancient.
He selects who perishes and who is saved by the gift of faith."
NO. He selected who perishes and who is saved by Election. He then Predestinated those who were elected to salvation. Election is an essential part of God's Grace and guarantees "faith" upon Regeneration.
That’s because the great commission is for everyone, not just certain people. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Long term exposure to the word of God increases the faith of someone.
That’s talking about people who believed in God, but weren’t convinced Jesus is the Messiah. Blanket judgements they are unregenerate isn’t supported by the passage.
No.
That verse is specifically in reference to why Jesus spoke in plain language to His disciples and in parables to everyone else. It’s prophecy fulfillment.
No, it’s all mankind. The gospel is for everyone like you already said.
False.
Faith is something anyone can have.
That interpretation is wrong and contradicts many things in the Bible. God takes no pleasure when the wicked perish and would rather them repent. Luke 24:46-47 says repentance needs to be preached to all the nations because it’s applicable to everyone.
That doesn’t even make sense. Faith would be required for regeneration to occur.
That’s talking about people who believed in God, but weren’t convinced Jesus is the Messiah. Blanket judgements they are unregenerate isn’t supported by the passage.
No.
That verse is specifically in reference to why Jesus spoke in plain language to His disciples and in parables to everyone else. It’s prophecy fulfillment.
No, it’s all mankind. The gospel is for everyone like you already said.
False.
Faith is something anyone can have.
That interpretation is wrong and contradicts many things in the Bible. God takes no pleasure when the wicked perish and would rather them repent. Luke 24:46-47 says repentance needs to be preached to all the nations because it’s applicable to everyone.
That doesn’t even make sense. Faith would be required for regeneration to occur.
Not exactly. The conditions of the “field” are actually external influences beyond one’s control that keep the “seed” from growing.
Among those external influences are the evil one, trouble, persecution, worries, and the deceitfulness of wealth that keep the seed, or word of God, from taking root. It has nothing to do with the person because every single person is capable of having faith in God if they can overcome those challenges. Hence why faith is a work.
In a perfect world with no evil one, troubles, deceptions, etc there would be no external influences that keep the word of God from producing a large crop on the field of someone’s heart.
It’s all right there in Matthew 13:18-23.
Among those external influences are the evil one, trouble, persecution, worries, and the deceitfulness of wealth that keep the seed, or word of God, from taking root. It has nothing to do with the person because every single person is capable of having faith in God if they can overcome those challenges. Hence why faith is a work.
In a perfect world with no evil one, troubles, deceptions, etc there would be no external influences that keep the word of God from producing a large crop on the field of someone’s heart.
It’s all right there in Matthew 13:18-23.
Faith is not requisite for regeneration but regeneration for saving Faith. Dead people cannot believe unto salvation any more than Lazarus could respond to Jesus unless he was first made alive.
It might be helpful to read the parable in Luke 15. It is 1 parable with 3 stories.
Most would recognize the good shepherd as Jesus whose blood has made forgiveness possible and who seeks out the lost sheep.
The story concerning the lost coin is representative of the work of the Holy Spirit who comes and enlightens us and cleanses us.
Only after these does the story of the prodigal come. It is here that the experiential part of salvation comes. The circumstances of life allow us to see that life with the father is far superior to life apart from him.
Notice in the story when it says he came to himself. That is the moment of regeneration. That is the point referred to in John 1:12 that he was given the power to become of God.
It is still his faith that he believes with but it is a faith that has been changed by the work of God in him. That is the grace that is not of himself and so is not his doing and, thus, not a work on his behalf.
It might be helpful to read the parable in Luke 15. It is 1 parable with 3 stories.
Most would recognize the good shepherd as Jesus whose blood has made forgiveness possible and who seeks out the lost sheep.
The story concerning the lost coin is representative of the work of the Holy Spirit who comes and enlightens us and cleanses us.
Only after these does the story of the prodigal come. It is here that the experiential part of salvation comes. The circumstances of life allow us to see that life with the father is far superior to life apart from him.
Notice in the story when it says he came to himself. That is the moment of regeneration. That is the point referred to in John 1:12 that he was given the power to become of God.
It is still his faith that he believes with but it is a faith that has been changed by the work of God in him. That is the grace that is not of himself and so is not his doing and, thus, not a work on his behalf.
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The field is the heart. If God hasn't done a work in the heart, the gospel will not be received. That is why in Ezekiel God says He will take out the heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh.
It is also why it is worth noting how Jeremiah described the natural heart as wicked and deceitful. How can one believe with that kind of heart?
It is also why it is worth noting how Jeremiah described the natural heart as wicked and deceitful. How can one believe with that kind of heart?
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Why do you say this? Because it is the most common view of the GC? Do you have evidence that it is for everyone?
It specifics commands to "go into all the world" and make disciples, and then "teach them everything I have commanded YOU".
If that is for everyone, then about 90+% of all believers have failed miserably.
It specifics commands to "go into all the world" and make disciples, and then "teach them everything I have commanded YOU".
If that is for everyone, then about 90+% of all believers have failed miserably.
Matthew 28 says this:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
The "them" refers to "all nations." In the Bible, when a reference is made to the nations it is usually referring to non-Jewish Gentile people. If you look up the word nations there in Matt. 28:18 you'll see what I am saying. You can trace this word all over the NT and in the OT a Hebrew word is used in a similar way.
There's variation of what the GC depending on the write. Mark 16 puts it like this:
15He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
All creation = all people.
Yes it is for everyone. Everyone is a missionary no matter where they are. Doesn't need to be like Paul who traveled far and wide; you are a missionary if you're on this website, at the grocery store, or even in church.
18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
The "them" refers to "all nations." In the Bible, when a reference is made to the nations it is usually referring to non-Jewish Gentile people. If you look up the word nations there in Matt. 28:18 you'll see what I am saying. You can trace this word all over the NT and in the OT a Hebrew word is used in a similar way.
There's variation of what the GC depending on the write. Mark 16 puts it like this:
15He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
All creation = all people.
Yes it is for everyone. Everyone is a missionary no matter where they are. Doesn't need to be like Paul who traveled far and wide; you are a missionary if you're on this website, at the grocery store, or even in church.
WB: In talking about someone who makes a false claim you've moved the goalposts because I've been talking about an unbeliever being made spiritually alive i.e. regenerated i.e. born again in an instant when God's gift of faith 'opens the (former) unbelievers mind and heart to the reality of Jesus Christ at which time he is also saved by his gifted faith.
The bit in Ezekiel is about being born again of "water and Spirit" see John 3. Yes faith is required.
It's quite simple, people don't receive the Holy Spirit without faith. The regeneration comes from the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13 KJV
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Galatians 3:14 KJV
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Everyone starts off with that kind of heart, even you.
Titus 3:3-5
3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [/QUOTE]
It's quite simple, people don't receive the Holy Spirit without faith. The regeneration comes from the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13 KJV
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Galatians 3:14 KJV
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Everyone starts off with that kind of heart, even you.
Titus 3:3-5
3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [/QUOTE]
The faith that I've been talking about is saving faith i.e. a 'natural' i.e. carnal man who is spiritually dead is in an instant on receiving the gift of faith from God 'born again' i.e. regenerated i.e. made spiritually alive.
If you've followed the exchanges with Freegrace2 you'll see that he is of the view that faith precedes salvation ....and he fails to see that the whole point in God giving a carnal man the gift of faith is to save him and make him spiritually alive.
If you've followed the exchanges with Freegrace2 you'll see that he is of the view that faith precedes salvation ....and he fails to see that the whole point in God giving a carnal man the gift of faith is to save him and make him spiritually alive.