Israel

[Jocund]

when the name of Yeshua was mentioned, it was like there was a barrier that goes up for Jewish people.

It's because the Talmud and Rabbinic teachings specifically reject Christ. They are indoctrinated to be antiChrist. They literally have to fight against their own programming in order to consider Jesus Christ. They have been lied to their entire lives.

I suspect a rather en masse conversion of some of them later in time, but I don't know the rate at which this will occur.

Then you are still acknowledging that the conversion does not happen all at once at the end of time.

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

The history of the Jews shows that they sabotaged themselves over and over again. But God still has a plan for future "believing Israel".[/QUOTE]

Can you provide chapter and verse in the NT where God "has a plan for Israel"?

 

[presidente]

The history of the Jews shows that they sabotaged themselves over and over again. But God still has a plan for future "believing Israel".

Can you provide chapter and verse in the NT where God "has a plan for Israel"? [/QUOTE]You were responding to someone else. I don't see that exact phrase in scripture, but you can look in Deuteronomy 32 for a prediction of what would happen to Israel. Paul quotes from this in the book of Romans. And he also elaborates a bit on the future of Israel in Romans 11.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There is "Israel" as in "Israel/Jacob" the person.

There is "Israel" as in the spiritual collective of people that form the "believing Israel" or "true Israel"

Then there are references to people "of Israel" which are just blood descendants and not necessarily part of true Israel.

There is also the modern usage of "Israel" as a place.

The distinction between "Israel" (the spiritual body) and "of Israel" is the important difference.

All Israel shall be saved. The verse does not say "All of Israel". Bloodlines are not a way of determining whether someone is part of true Israel, the capacity to believe and accept Christ is.

Most of Israel is doomed to be unsaved. Only a remnant is fated to be saved. That is what is meant by "Not all of Israel are Israel"

The big question is whether death would be the point in time that someone's fate is sealed? If that is the case, very many in the modern geopolitical state that calls itself Israel will be unsaved. If it is not the case, many that rejected Jesus Christ in life may have a second chance.

Which is the case? No idea. That's a mystery. You could have 100% of the population of that modern country saved. You could also have 0% of that country saved. Ethnicity doesn't guarantee salvation, faith in Christ does.

Israel/Jacob is not one person, but Israel/Jacob represents all of the elect people of God (Isaiah 43).(Rom 9:11) (Isaiah 65:9) (Isaiah 46:3)

There is a remnant of Israel/Jacob who shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies, neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth (Zeph 3:13).

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Romans 9:6 - What is your interpretation of this scripture? Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

God chose Israel as a nation.

God did not mess up by choosing these people who have rejected him, and have now hung him on a cross.

Paul will spend the next three chapters explaining this.. His first comment, is that not all are physical Israel, is of Israel

 

[oyster67]

Son to be a sacrifice to redeem them from their sins was a finished work on the cross, and that there would be no more sacrifice for sins.

That is correct.

Jesus said that he would not lose any of them, but will raise them up at the last day.(John 6:39).

Now let's see what that verse really says...
John 6:39
“And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

That lines up perfectly with the rest of Scripture that tells us that God does not want anyone to go to Hell. This does not mean that no one is going there. This does not mean that there is some pre-registered group that is exempt from needing to make a choice.

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Do you see that? They need to "come to repentance".


John 17:12
“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

That is a simple statement of fact. This does not say that it had to happen that way. As a matter of fact, it even tells us that one was lost. They all made their choice, and so must we.


Have you made your choice?

 

[oyster67]

Yes, today, the Jews, who don't believe in Jesus Christ, are cut off, sadly, as it says in Rom 9-11. However, the Good News, happily, is that at some time in the future, they will turn to Jesus Christ, acknowledging Him as the True Messiah, and their Lord and Savior, and be saved.

Yes, and Amen!

I believe that much of this will transpire during the future time of the Tribulation Period.

 

[kaylagrl]

The history of the Jews shows that they sabotaged themselves over and over again. But God still has a plan for future "believing Israel".

Can you provide chapter and verse in the NT where God "has a plan for Israel"? [/QUOTE]


More than one chapter and verse, through the OT and in the NT. Romans 11 is totally focused on this subject.

 

[presidente]

Israel/Jacob is not one person, but Israel/Jacob represents all of the elect people of God (Isaiah 43).(Rom 9:11) (Isaiah 65:9) (Isaiah 46:3)

There is a remnant of Israel/Jacob who shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies, neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth (Zeph 3:13).

I notice 'church is Israel' folks assume certain references to 'Israel' refer to the church, made of Jew and Gentile, and that is the basis for the doctrine. Where is the scripture that is 'onramp' for this highway of circular reasoning? Excluding the rebellious from the nation is not the same as including redeemed Gentiles in Israel.

Notice the wording here in relation to redeemed nations which God predicted in the book of Isaiah:

Isaiah 19

22 And the Lord shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the Lord, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

Here Israel, Egypt, and Assyria are the LORD's, but Israel is still called 'Israel' and is distinct from the other two nations.

Deuteronomy 32 also predicts Israel's idolatry, and Israel's unbelief.... a problem in Paul's day until now for much of the people. In this passage, we see that God would provoke Israel to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation, He would anger them. Paul explains how this works through the Gospel as Gentiles believe in Jesus and are grafted in. But the blindness on Israel is temporary. Toward the end of the passage, we read 'Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with His people.' Paul quotes this in Romans 15. Again, this is two groups. Israel is already described as the LORD"s inheritance earlier in Deuteronomy 32. Through God's interactions with Israel, both Israel and Gentiles will rejoice before God. But again, a distinction between the two groups. We see these in Ephesians two groups are in unity, however, in one new man, through Christ.

Calling the church "Israel" is problematic when it comes to explaining these types of scriptures and the line of reasoning in the song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32 and in Paul's writing and various other scriptures. There is nothing in the New Testament that identifies Christian Gentiles as 'Israel.' It's assumed and supercessionists just run with the idea. They assume 'Israel of God' refers to the church including Gentiles, as opposed to redeemed Jews.

 

[Jocund]

I notice 'church is Israel' folks assume certain references to 'Israel' refer to the church, made of Jew and Gentile, and that is the basis for the doctrine. Where is the scripture that is 'onramp' for this highway of circular reasoning?

1) Israel (revealed, true Israel in Christ) is part of the Church. That's a minimum. Anyone that argues against that is arguing against scripture. True Israel and the Church are not mutually exclusive. But, the people "of" Israel are not necessarily part of the Church.

2) Paul was technically a Benji but was called a Jew because Israelites united under the house of Judah. It is possible that Gentiles-turned-Christian referentially became part of the house of Israel (through Christ) and therefore were inherited under the name "Israel" in the same way that Israelites united under the house of Judah. This would allow some contexts to reference them under the term "Israel" and in other contexts leave them as distinct from the people of Israel. In the same way that Paul could be called a Jew in some cases but still differentiated from Jews by his heritage being through Benjamin. "You Gentile" basically means "you foreigner" and can be interpretted as a tool for dramatic effect to remind the audience to humbly reflect on their origin rather than necessarily meaning to imply that these people continued to be a "foreign people" from God.

both Israel and Gentiles will rejoice before God. But again, a distinction between the two groups.

Which group does Timothy belong to? He had a Gentile father and a Jewish mother. He isn't quite Gentile and he isn't quite Jewish, but at the same time he is fully both.

line of reasoning in the song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32

Are you able to explain your premise here?

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

Can you provide chapter and verse in the NT where God "has a plan for Israel"?

More than one chapter and verse, through the OT and in the NT. Romans 11 is totally focused on this subject.[/QUOTE]

There are ZERO promises to Israel about our future. The promises were made before the temple was destroyed whose end was to bring them to Christ. All the Israel of the first century was saved by coming to Christ while the rest which was the majority perished in their sins. There are ZERO promises to them about the far future. The promise was always Christ.

Please read Romans 11 carefully and do not leave any verses out. The promise to Israel was a Messiah, nothing else. They did whatever they wanted with the Son of God and killed Him. They persecuted Jewish believers to death, and almost killed Paul the Apostle. In the end, they died at the hands of the Romans. If you don't read the word of God within the context it is given, you will come up with a false alternative explanation that feeds the flesh but does nothing to glorify the Lord.

God fulfilled all His promises to Israel (Josh 21:45; 23:14, 1Ki. 8:56: Acts 13:32-33). Why then do you continue to believe lies?

 

[kaylagrl]

Why then do you continue to believe lies?

I believe what the Word says. God made an unconditional covenant in the OT with the Jewish people and He continued to reiterate it through the the OT. The Jews are blinded for a time, when is that time?

Romans "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in"

Last time I checked, Gentiles are still coming in. I don't believe in replacement theology and its various fake names.

 

[Edify]

Calling the church "Israel" is problematic when it comes to explaining these types of scriptures and the line of reasoning in the song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32 and in Paul's writing and various other scriptures. There is nothing in the New Testament that identifies Christian Gentiles as 'Israel.' It's assumed and supercessionists just run with the idea. They assume 'Israel of God' refers to the church including Gentiles, as opposed to redeemed Jews.

 

[Edify]

More than one chapter and verse, through the OT and in the NT. Romans 11 is totally focused on this subject.

There are ZERO promises to Israel about our future. The promises were made before the temple was destroyed whose end was to bring them to Christ. All the Israel of the first century was saved by coming to Christ while the rest which was the majority perished in their sins. There are ZERO promises to them about the far future. The promise was always Christ.

Please read Romans 11 carefully and do not leave any verses out. The promise to Israel was a Messiah, nothing else. They did whatever they wanted with the Son of God and killed Him. They persecuted Jewish believers to death, and almost killed Paul the Apostle. In the end, they died at the hands of the Romans. If you don't read the word of God within the context it is given, you will come up with a false alternative explanation that feeds the flesh but does nothing to glorify the Lord.

God fulfilled all His promises to Israel (Josh 21:45; 23:14, 1Ki. 8:56: Acts 13:32-33). Why then do you continue to believe lies? [/QUOTE]
Apparently you haven't seen the prophecy of the 144,000 Jews that will be saved during the Tribulation to be evangelists of the Gospel.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That is correct.


Now let's see what that verse really says...
John 6:39
“And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

That lines up perfectly with the rest of Scripture that tells us that God does not want anyone to go to Hell. This does not mean that no one is going there. This does not mean that there is some pre-registered group that is exempt from needing to make a choice.

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Do you see that? They need to "come to repentance".


John 17:12
“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

That is a simple statement of fact. This does not say that it had to happen that way. As a matter of fact, it even tells us that one was lost. They all made their choice, and so must we.


Have you made your choice?

Are you suggesting that God loves all of mankind and that it is his will that they would all have the inheritance of heaven?

Dan 4:35 - And all the inhabitants of earth are reputed as nothing, and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and NONE can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? If God wanted to take all of mankind to heaven, nothing could stop him, especially mankind.

Eph 1:5 - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL.

Isaiah 55:11 - So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth, it shall not return unto me void, BUT IT SHALL ACCOMPLISH THAT WHICH I PLEASE, and it shall prosper in the thing whereunto I sent it.

Rom 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, TO THEM WHO ARE THE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE.

Eph 1:11 - In whom we also have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL

2 Tim 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

God does not offer or plan. God Purposes his will and does it.

Most of the choosing in the scriptures is God choosing, and not mankind choosing. God gave mankind the freedom to choose out the way he wanted to live his life here on earth, but God did the choosing for mankind's eternal inheritance. Give me a scripture where man chooses eternal life.

2 Pet 3:9 - We find in 2 Pet 1:1 who Peter is speaking to in 2 Pet 3:9, and it is to them that have obtained like precious faith with us. Peter also includes himself in his warning to them by using the word "usward". Peter is instructing them about God's promise that he is not willing that any of them should ( "perish=death=separation") separate themselves from his fellowship by committing a sin, and when they do, to repent to regain their fellowship back.

The unregenerate person will not repent of breaking a spiritual law from a spiritual God, that he cannot discern, and thinks them to be foolishness (1 Cor 2:14).

 

[Jocund]

Apparently you haven't seen the prophecy of the 144,000 Jews that will be saved during the Tribulation to be evangelists of the Gospel.

There is no prophesy about "144,000 Jews".

If you are referring to the 12,000 from the tribe of Judah that appear, it does not state that the people seen were "saved" from an earthly death. Only that they appeared.

 

[oyster67]

Are you suggesting that God loves all of mankind and that it is his will that they would all have the inheritance of heaven?

Yes.

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

It is men who choose to reject, not God.

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

Please read Romans 11 carefully and do not leave any verses out. The promise to Israel was a Messiah, nothing else. They did whatever they wanted with the Son of God and killed Him. They persecuted Jewish believers to death, and almost killed Paul the Apostle. In the end, they died at the hands of the Romans. If you don't read the word of God within the context it is given, you will come up with a false alternative explanation that feeds the flesh but does nothing to glorify the Lord.

God fulfilled all His promises to Israel (Josh 21:45; 23:14, 1Ki. 8:56: Acts 13:32-33). Why then do you continue to believe lies? [/QUOTE]

Apparently you haven't seen the prophecy of the 144,000 Jews that will be saved during the Tribulation to be evangelists of the Gospel.[/QUOTE]

Your personal interpretation does not count since nothing in the book of Revelation points to our future. Read the scriptures in context and DO NOT ignore what I said. If you can debate me on the scriptures I posted, please do so, otherwise, don't bother.

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

I believe what the Word says. God made an unconditional covenant in the OT with the Jewish people and He continued to reiterate it through the the OT. The Jews are blinded for a time, when is that time?

Romans "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in"

Last time I checked, Gentiles are still coming in. I don't believe in replacement theology and its various fake names.

I don't believe in Replacement Theology either, so don't assume what you don't know; moreover, you don't believe the scriptures, especially when you totally ignored my post where I explicitly posted scriptures that proves that God fulfilled His promises to national Israel. They in turn broken the covenant beyond repair by KILLING THE SON OF GOD and by PERSECUTING Jewish believers that believed in the Lord. Being dishonest proves that you are not walking with the Lord.

Re-post: Please read Romans 11 carefully and do not leave any verses out. The promise to Israel was a Messiah, nothing else. They did whatever they wanted with the Son of God and killed Him. They persecuted Jewish believers to death, and almost killed Paul the Apostle. In the end, they died at the hands of the Romans. If you don't read the word of God within the context it is given, you will come up with a false alternative explanation that feeds the flesh but does nothing to glorify the Lord.

God fulfilled all His promises to Israel (Josh 21:45; 23:14, 1Ki. 8:56: Acts 13:32-33). Why then do you continue to believe lies? 😮

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

I believe what the Word says. God made an unconditional covenant in the OT with the Jewish people and He continued to reiterate it through the the OT. The Jews are blinded for a time, when is that time?

Romans "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in"

Last time I checked, Gentiles are still coming in. I don't believe in replacement theology and its various fake names.

Your post lacks context. Paul was speaking about COVENANT ISRAEL, not about a modern, secular nation that has nothing to do with God's promises that He already fulfilled. The ultimate promise was Christ. In AD 70, God moved on to destroy their temple and judge 1.2 million Jews who had terrorized true believers.

Learn how to read the bible. If you need help, ask the Holy Spirit and stop watching nonsense on the internet.

God fulfilled all His promises to Israel (Josh 21:45; 23:14, 1Ki. 8:56: Acts 13:32-33). Why then do you continue to believe lies? 😮