Was the Pharaoh of Exodus predestined for damnation?

[Nehemiah6]

Calvinists use Romans 9:17-23 as their proof text that God elects or predestines some for damnation (and others for salvation). We read in verses 17 & 18: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

It is quite probable that Rameses II was the Pharaoh of Egypt when Moses was sent to bring the Israelites out of Egypt. But we need to stick with the Bible narrative regarding this Pharaoh who did not know Joseph, and hated the Israelites.

We need to carefully note the sequence of events in Exodus 5-14 to see that Pharaoh chose his own damnation, even though God gave him many opportunities to repent (as He does to all sinners). What we see is that Pharaoh hardened his heart even before the LORD began to harden his heart. The evidence was (a) the cruelty he showed to the Israelites and (b) his command to destroy all the baby boys of the Hebrews.

The Bible reveals that Pharaoh hardened his heart seven times and the LORD hardened his heart five times. This teaches us that God gives wicked men many opportunities to repent, but eventually He does not allow them to repent because of their own hardness of heart.

1. PHARAOH DEFIES GOD AND HIS HEART IS ALREADY HARD
And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go. (Exod 5:2)

2. THE SERPENT ROD DUPLICATED AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. And He hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 7:12,13)

3. THE PLAGUE OF BLOOD DUPLICATED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 7:22)

4. THE PLAGUE OF FROGS REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 8:15)

5. THE PLAGUE OF LICE COMES AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 8:19)

6. THE PLAGUE OF FLIES REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. (Exod 8:32)

7. THE PLAGUE ON CATTLE AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go. (Exod 9:7)

8. THE PLAGUE OF BOILS AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians. And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. (Exod 9:11,12)

9. THE PLAGUE OF THUNDER & HAIL REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses. (Exod 9:34,35)

10. THE PLAGUE OF LOCUSTS REMOVED AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. (Exod 10:20)

11. THE PLAGUE OF DARKNESS AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. (Exod 10:27)

12. THE DEATH OF THE FIRSTBORN AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand. (Exod 14:8)

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Agreed. Men harden their heart first, and then God confirms what they've already decided to do.

There is no such thing as "Double Predestination" or "Predestination to Hell" in the Holy Bible.

Predestination to Salvation or Heaven, yes. Predestination means God is the Cause of something.

God is the Author and Cause of our Salvation, hence it is true to say He predestines us to Salvation or to Heaven.

But God is never ever ever the Author and Cause of anyone's damnation. Hence, no predestination to damnation/hell.

God Bless.

 

[JohnDB]

God's foreknowledge is not license for predestination. Otherwise this life would be over yesterday.

 

[pottersclay]

Calvinists use Romans 9:17-23 as their proof text that God elects or predestines some for damnation (and others for salvation). We read in verses 17 & 18: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

It is quite probable that Rameses II was the Pharaoh of Egypt when Moses was sent to bring the Israelites out of Egypt. But we need to stick with the Bible narrative regarding this Pharaoh who did not know Joseph, and hated the Israelites.

We need to carefully note the sequence of events in Exodus 5-14 to see that Pharaoh chose his own damnation, even though God gave him many opportunities to repent (as He does to all sinners). What we see is that Pharaoh hardened his heart even before the LORD began to harden his heart. The evidence was (a) the cruelty he showed to the Israelites and (b) his command to destroy all the baby boys of the Hebrews.

The Bible reveals that Pharaoh hardened his heart seven times and the LORD hardened his heart five times. This teaches us that God gives wicked men many opportunities to repent, but eventually He does not allow them to repent because of their own hardness of heart.

1. PHARAOH DEFIES GOD AND HIS HEART IS ALREADY HARD
And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go. (Exod 5:2)

2. THE SERPENT ROD DUPLICATED AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. And He hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 7:12,13)

3. THE PLAGUE OF BLOOD DUPLICATED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 7:22)

4. THE PLAGUE OF FROGS REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 8:15)

5. THE PLAGUE OF LICE COMES AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 8:19)

6. THE PLAGUE OF FLIES REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. (Exod 8:32)

7. THE PLAGUE ON CATTLE AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go. (Exod 9:7)

8. THE PLAGUE OF BOILS AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians. And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. (Exod 9:11,12)

9. THE PLAGUE OF THUNDER & HAIL REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses. (Exod 9:34,35)

10. THE PLAGUE OF LOCUSTS REMOVED AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. (Exod 10:20)

11. THE PLAGUE OF DARKNESS AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. (Exod 10:27)

12. THE DEATH OF THE FIRSTBORN AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand. (Exod 14:8)

I agree with you on this. I look at it a little different than what you have explained.
Heres my thoughts...
Many look at these verses to say GOD supernaturally harden the heart of pharaoh but i do not agree as it would take away from freedom of choice.
What i believe is that pharaoh defied that which was evident out of pride reguardless of what manifested.
In other words when it says that GOD harden his heart i believe it to mean the acts of GOD.
Pharaohs refused to acknowledge GODs power being superior even though it was a slam dunk.
Going against even what was evident. Denying the truth. Searing his conscious. Being stubbornly ignorant against the Lord.

 

[DJT_47]

Predestination (based upon the foreknowledge of God)
Premise: God knows the beginning and the end, so therefore he must also know all that will occur within the entire expanse of time including everything that will occur in the middle, between the beginning and the end of time.
Predestination as discussed in the bible (below passages) can therefore be easily explained when taking into consideration the foreknowledge that God possesses as also noted in scripture, which factor is germane to the proper understanding of predestination but is most often, if not always, overlooked and not considered when examining/discussing predestination.
Further, based upon God’s foreknowledge, all things must therefore then be already determined (destiny/fate); how can they not be if God knows the future? How can God know the future if it is fluid, dynamic, and changes, unless such fluidity and change is part of His foreknowledge, which it obviously must be? If things were fluid, dynamic, and/or random and subject to unexpected or unknown constant change to God, God would not know what was going to happen in the future and would not be able nor have been able to predict future events through His prophets. So, if God does know what will happen in the future, the future must already be set or determined and unchangeable (destiny/fate).
This premise further has profound implications when considering things such as prayer. This would have to then mean that God knows that you will (future) be praying for something before you pray for it. It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t pray for it then, it simply means that the future is already known or has already been determined (due to God’s ‘foreknowledge’ of it), and your prayers, are simply fulfilling that which is already known to God and will occur as does everything else that occurs or will occur (also due to the “foreknowledge” of God). Whatever influences we think we have upon any given thing or subject through prayer or other actions, may in fact be as such, however, such influences are already known to God by His foreknowledge, and have therefore already been determined and are just the fulfillment of that which has already been determined will/should occur.
If God knows the beginning, the end, and as stated everything in between, then one can only conclude that all things have already been determined and are NOT able to be changed (destiny/fate) by prayer or anything else (once again due to the “foreknowledge” of God) and that all things that are done are so done in accordance with God’s plan and predicated upon and consistent with His “foreknowledge”. This is not to say that certain individuals were chosen first as being special or better than others and predestined accordingly, but rather means that once the plan was set into motion (the creation of all things), that the creation itself and related natural unfolding, sequential events, including the actions taken by individuals pursuant to the exercise of their own free will, would result in various things being done and events unfolding as a result thereof, but because God knows what those things will be in advance of them happening due to His “foreknowledge”, and predestination then being consistent with said “foreknowledge. Predestination then is successive to and in harmony with the “foreknowledge” of God.
Jer 1:5 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Rom 8 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1 Pet 1:2 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Eph 1 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[PennEd]

An impossible question to answer from our perspective.

God knew every choice Pharaoh, or us, make or will make before he or we make it.

So as God was forming Pharaoh, God knew how he would be used for His glory. So for all intents and purposes Pharaoh WAS predestined.

This of course doesn’t absolve him, or us, of the choices made.

 

[Seeker47]

I try never to second guess God. Despite what some say, we do not know what is in a mans heart at the moment of death. Some very cruel things have been said by people who assure they speak for God.

 

[JohnDB]

The creation of "autonomous free will" is not something that we humans can achieve. They keep trying with Artificial Intelligence....but are still failing miserably. They best they can do is predictive programming based on past actions....

To say that God was unwilling/unable to create autonomous free will is making God less than who He is.

God is most definitely Sovereign...but that doesn't mean that He forces our attitudes upon us. We own that outright.

 

[Evmur]

Calvinists use Romans 9:17-23 as their proof text that God elects or predestines some for damnation (and others for salvation). We read in verses 17 & 18: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

It is quite probable that Rameses II was the Pharaoh of Egypt when Moses was sent to bring the Israelites out of Egypt. But we need to stick with the Bible narrative regarding this Pharaoh who did not know Joseph, and hated the Israelites.

We need to carefully note the sequence of events in Exodus 5-14 to see that Pharaoh chose his own damnation, even though God gave him many opportunities to repent (as He does to all sinners). What we see is that Pharaoh hardened his heart even before the LORD began to harden his heart. The evidence was (a) the cruelty he showed to the Israelites and (b) his command to destroy all the baby boys of the Hebrews.

The Bible reveals that Pharaoh hardened his heart seven times and the LORD hardened his heart five times. This teaches us that God gives wicked men many opportunities to repent, but eventually He does not allow them to repent because of their own hardness of heart.

1. PHARAOH DEFIES GOD AND HIS HEART IS ALREADY HARD
And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go. (Exod 5:2)

2. THE SERPENT ROD DUPLICATED AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. And He hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 7:12,13)

3. THE PLAGUE OF BLOOD DUPLICATED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 7:22)

4. THE PLAGUE OF FROGS REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 8:15)

5. THE PLAGUE OF LICE COMES AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 8:19)

6. THE PLAGUE OF FLIES REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. (Exod 8:32)

7. THE PLAGUE ON CATTLE AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go. (Exod 9:7)

8. THE PLAGUE OF BOILS AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians. And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. (Exod 9:11,12)

9. THE PLAGUE OF THUNDER & HAIL REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses. (Exod 9:34,35)

10. THE PLAGUE OF LOCUSTS REMOVED AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. (Exod 10:20)

11. THE PLAGUE OF DARKNESS AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. (Exod 10:27)

12. THE DEATH OF THE FIRSTBORN AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand. (Exod 14:8)

Moses was predestined, God did raise Pharoah up for the purposes which you have outlined but it is not according to predestination, it is in view of the fact that Pharoah was a sinner. God did not predestine sin He predestined salvation knowing that mankind would sin.

Sin is not God's plan for man. We don't know why He chose Pharoah or Judas or Hitler or Stalin, it's best left with God trusting Him always to do what is just and right.

 

[John146]

Agreed. Men harden their heart first, and then God confirms what they've already decided to do.

There is no such thing as "Double Predestination" or "Predestination to Hell" in the Holy Bible.

Predestination to Salvation or Heaven, yes. Predestination means God is the Cause of something.

God is the Author and Cause of our Salvation, hence it is true to say He predestines us to Salvation or to Heaven.

But God is never ever ever the Author and Cause of anyone's damnation. Hence, no predestination to damnation/hell.

God Bless.

Predestination always is a reference to the redemption of the body, never the salvation of the soul. Once saved, God predestines that man to the redemption. That's the final destination of all believers in Christ.

 

[John146]

This premise further has profound implications when considering things such as prayer. This would have to then mean that God knows that you will (future) be praying for something before you pray for it. It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t pray for it then, it simply means that the future is already known or has already been determined (due to God’s ‘foreknowledge’ of it), and your prayers, are simply fulfilling that which is already known to God and will occur as does everything else that occurs or will occur (also due to the “foreknowledge” of God). Whatever influences we think we have upon any given thing or subject through prayer or other actions, may in fact be as such, however, such influences are already known to God by His foreknowledge, and have therefore already been determined and are just the fulfillment of that which has already been determined will/should occur.

Tell this to Hezekiah and Nineveh. God is not a liar.

 

[John146]

An impossible question to answer from our perspective.

God knew every choice Pharaoh, or us, make or will make before he or we make it.

So as God was forming Pharaoh, God knew how he would be used for His glory. So for all intents and purposes Pharaoh WAS predestined.

This of course doesn’t absolve him, or us, of the choices made.

Hezekiah? Nineveh? Is God a liar?

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Predestination always is a reference to the redemption of the body, never the salvation of the soul. Once saved, God predestines that man to the redemption. That's the final destination of all believers in Christ.

Hi John.

There are references that say God has predestined us for adoption as sons/daughters of God. E.G.

Ephesians 1:4-5:

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Thoughts on that?

On thread topic, can anyone who believes Pharaoh or Judas or anyone was predestined to hell find a single verse that says: "He predestined them unto hell or damnation" or something like that. I don't think there is any such verse.

God Bless.

 

[JohnRH]

Calvinists use Romans 9:17-23 as their proof text that God elects or predestines some for damnation (and others for salvation). We read in verses 17 & 18: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

It is quite probable that Rameses II was the Pharaoh of Egypt when Moses was sent to bring the Israelites out of Egypt. But we need to stick with the Bible narrative regarding this Pharaoh who did not know Joseph, and hated the Israelites.

We need to carefully note the sequence of events in Exodus 5-14 to see that Pharaoh chose his own damnation, even though God gave him many opportunities to repent (as He does to all sinners). What we see is that Pharaoh hardened his heart even before the LORD began to harden his heart. The evidence was (a) the cruelty he showed to the Israelites and (b) his command to destroy all the baby boys of the Hebrews.

The Bible reveals that Pharaoh hardened his heart seven times and the LORD hardened his heart five times. This teaches us that God gives wicked men many opportunities to repent, but eventually He does not allow them to repent because of their own hardness of heart.

1. PHARAOH DEFIES GOD AND HIS HEART IS ALREADY HARD
And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go. (Exod 5:2)

2. THE SERPENT ROD DUPLICATED AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. And He hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 7:12,13)

3. THE PLAGUE OF BLOOD DUPLICATED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 7:22)

4. THE PLAGUE OF FROGS REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 8:15)

5. THE PLAGUE OF LICE COMES AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 8:19)

6. THE PLAGUE OF FLIES REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. (Exod 8:32)

7. THE PLAGUE ON CATTLE AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go. (Exod 9:7)

8. THE PLAGUE OF BOILS AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians. And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. (Exod 9:11,12)

9. THE PLAGUE OF THUNDER & HAIL REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses. (Exod 9:34,35)

10. THE PLAGUE OF LOCUSTS REMOVED AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. (Exod 10:20)

11. THE PLAGUE OF DARKNESS AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. (Exod 10:27)

12. THE DEATH OF THE FIRSTBORN AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand. (Exod 14:8)

Since "let my people go" isn't the way of salvation, I think Pharaoh's (genuine) opportunity for personal, eternal salvation happened before the events recorded in Exodus. I believe he was given every opportunity to be saved; as is the case for everyone.

 

[John146]

Hi John.

There are references that say God has predestined us for adoption as sons/daughters of God. E.G.

Ephesians 1:4-5:

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Thoughts on that?

On thread topic, can anyone who believes Pharaoh or Judas or anyone was predestined to hell find a single verse that says: "He predestined them unto hell or damnation" or something like that. I don't think there is any such verse.

God Bless.

The adoption is the redemption of the body. It is future. It is so certain that now we can be called sons of God.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[oyster67]

Calvinists use Romans 9:17-23 as their proof text that God elects or predestines some for damnation (and others for salvation). We read in verses 17 & 18: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

It is quite probable that Rameses II was the Pharaoh of Egypt when Moses was sent to bring the Israelites out of Egypt. But we need to stick with the Bible narrative regarding this Pharaoh who did not know Joseph, and hated the Israelites.

We need to carefully note the sequence of events in Exodus 5-14 to see that Pharaoh chose his own damnation, even though God gave him many opportunities to repent (as He does to all sinners). What we see is that Pharaoh hardened his heart even before the LORD began to harden his heart. The evidence was (a) the cruelty he showed to the Israelites and (b) his command to destroy all the baby boys of the Hebrews.

The Bible reveals that Pharaoh hardened his heart seven times and the LORD hardened his heart five times. This teaches us that God gives wicked men many opportunities to repent, but eventually He does not allow them to repent because of their own hardness of heart.

1. PHARAOH DEFIES GOD AND HIS HEART IS ALREADY HARD
And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go. (Exod 5:2)

2. THE SERPENT ROD DUPLICATED AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. And He hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 7:12,13)

3. THE PLAGUE OF BLOOD DUPLICATED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 7:22)

4. THE PLAGUE OF FROGS REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 8:15)

5. THE PLAGUE OF LICE COMES AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (Exod 8:19)

6. THE PLAGUE OF FLIES REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. (Exod 8:32)

7. THE PLAGUE ON CATTLE AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go. (Exod 9:7)

8. THE PLAGUE OF BOILS AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians. And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. (Exod 9:11,12)

9. THE PLAGUE OF THUNDER & HAIL REMOVED AND PHARAOH HARDENS HIS HEART
And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses. (Exod 9:34,35)

10. THE PLAGUE OF LOCUSTS REMOVED AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. (Exod 10:20)

11. THE PLAGUE OF DARKNESS AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. (Exod 10:27)

12. THE DEATH OF THE FIRSTBORN AND GOD HARDENS PHARAOH’S HEART
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand. (Exod 14:8)

Yes.

Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

 

[JohnDB]

God is omnipresent....
Meaning that there is nowhere God is not already there and has been there.

"In the beginning..."
God created the beginning...meaning God created time itself. (On the 4th day)

God interacts with man so God is both inside of time and outside of time. This allows God to be immutable (unchanging) and omniscient (all knowing) . God knows the beginning just as well as the end as well as the many possibilities of a direct hand of interference that can result in doing so.

God has never been after the volume of believers that we humans would ...He has always been after a very elite distillation of mankind. This is due to God's omnipotence. All power is God's. Your next breath isn't at God's acquiescence but God's active support. (God is Sovereign) All power returns to God because of this. (difficult for most to understand)

Just because people "waste" their lives does not mean that they have not fulfilled their purpose as God intended. God is perfectly efficient in his use of power. So the "waste" is directly attributed to man but still recovered by God to achieve His perfect result. (Which will last for eternity)

The investment is high....but the returns are still higher.

Man still gets to choose his lot in either eternal life or death.

 

[pottersclay]

An impossible question to answer from our perspective.

God knew every choice Pharaoh, or us, make or will make before he or we make it.

So as God was forming Pharaoh, God knew how he would be used for His glory. So for all intents and purposes Pharaoh WAS predestined.

This of course doesn’t absolve him, or us, of the choices made.

Ive read your reply several times...to me brother...and no offence to you...it seems like a oxymoron.
How could this non absolveent in choices we make be a reality?
Gods judgements are true and just. If God created pharaoh as a fall guy then how is it just to condemn him? Shouldnt he be rewarded for serving his exact purpose of his creation?
Im really at a loss here🤐

 

[EDENgate]

I think Daniel 4 would say so.

Exodus 9 teaches us God hardened the Pharaohs heart prior to Moses's arrival asking Pharaoh to free God's people.

''All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”''

 

[Nehemiah6]

Exodus 9 teaches us God hardened the Pharaohs heart prior to Moses's arrival asking Pharaoh to free God's people.

So you are suggesting that God made Pharaoh evil in spite of himself? In that case sinners can never be held accountable for their sin and wickedness and Pharaoh could not be condemned.