Was Simon the Sorcerer saved?

Runningman · Jan 8, 2023

What I see in the New Testament is that people seem to get the Holy Spirit in different ways, but not always the same way. Believing and/or water baptism, laying on of hands, being breathed on by Jesus, or like John the Baptist who was born with the Holy Spirit. It appears to me it's in God's timing or, in other words, whenever He feels like it based on whatever criteria He's looking for.

JohnRH · Jan 8, 2023

studentoftheword said:

Then to be consistent you'd have to say none of the Samaritans got saved.
... they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ ... Simon himself believed also ...

SomeDisciple · Jan 8, 2023

posthuman said:

Well, asking for grace doesn't necessarily mean that you don't also have another god, or intend to keep walking in your own ways. He could very well be asking to be spared the penalty while continuing to walk in his own ways rather than asking to be delivered from his iniquity.
At the end of the day you can believe in the concept of repentance, but never actually do it. If Simon's decision was "I believe what you guys are saying, but I think I'm just going to continue doing my sorcery- you guys can pray for me, though" then that is not repentance, and that's not saving faith.

Cameron143 · Jan 8, 2023

Perhaps the point of the story isn't whether he is saved or not since either view could be correct. Perhaps we are supposed to see that there is a real spiritual realm and it has elements of good and evil.
This should give us pause. For it is not something to be feared but is something that is subject to abuse.

studentoftheword · Jan 8, 2023

JohnRH said:

The others did get saved as they received the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands ------verse 17

17 Then [the apostles] laid their hands on them one by one, and they received the Holy Spirit.

I say -----Simon did not receive the Holy spirit with the others ------Simon went to Peter and offered Money to have the Holy Spirit and Peter rebuked Him ----so Simon never receive the Holy Spirit ----and Simon was NOT SAVED -----as his believing was not the right believing ------

Many people today Believe but they are not saved ------just by saying you believe does not make Salvation a sure thing ----

The Believing here goes deeper than just believing -----as you see in these scriptures----believing is adhering to ---trusting in and relying on the truth -------Simon's believing was not genuine-----he just wanted the power and ability for his own gain --------his motive was wrong --------

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ [[a]give yourself up to Him, [b] take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping]

in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:9-10

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition
9 Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.

Acts 16:31

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

31 And they answered, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ [[a]give yourself up to Him, [b] take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping] and you will be saved, [and this applies both to] you and your household as well.
Read full chapter

posthuman · Jan 8, 2023

SomeDisciple said:

Acts 8:9
But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria

Says here "previously"
I have no reason to believe he continued practicing sorcery.

posthuman · Jan 8, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Agree, I don't think the point of this passage is for us to judge the salvation of Simon.

There seems to be a theme running through it of belief via signs and miracles - all of Samaria had thought of Simon as the power of God ((v. 10)) because of the signs he did, believing him, then they are amazed also at Philip performing signs and miracles ((v. 6)), all believing him too - then John and Simon Peter arrive doing more signs and miracles, and one Simon asks another Simon for this power, willing to trade his earthly riches for it. Simon rebukes Simon, saying the power of God cannot be bought.

So there's the miracles bringing about belief and the desire for such power theme here, and there's also a bit of a 'tale of two Simons' - with the whole narrative being introduced in the context of Saul ((who would later become Paul)) persecuting the church to the point that all but the apostles had fled Jerusalem. Hence we are in Samaria, and we have a pretext of impending changes of hearts.

I think to discover the intent of these things being written we need to study out the Simeon prophecy in the NT, all the times Christ refers to Peter as Simon & the other Simons, as well as find the OT complement of this particular passage, where people are believing because of signs, and the power to perform signs is sought to be bought - or the power of God is thought to be able to be purchased - - and put all those things in the context of Saul not yet having been renewed as Paul.

So yeah, this is way bigger than 'can Simon lose salvation and/or believe in vain' IMO
The Bible is always far deeper and richer than some superficial moralism.

JohnRH · Jan 8, 2023

studentoftheword said:

The text doesn't say that.

studentoftheword said:

No he didn't. He offered them money to get the power to lay his hands on others so they could receive the Holy Spirit.

posthuman · Jan 8, 2023

JohnRH said:

In fact the text seems to indicate Peter and John prayed for and laid hands on all of them -

Acts 8:14-17
Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Simon would be included in 'them' if 'them' refers to all there in Samaria who had believed and been baptized.
The conversation between the two Simons seems to me to have taken place in the middle of this happening, as though when Simon came to Simon in turn, Simon told him he would pay for a 'double portion' so to speak.

If that's the case what does Simon do after he rebukes Simon? Refuse to lay hands on him at all? Simon makes special request for prayer from Simon, as though this occurs when Simon has come to Simon because it is Simon's turn for prayer and the laying on of hands. Does Simon refuse to pray for Simon?
Why does God choose not to tell us the rest of the story?

JohnRH · Jan 9, 2023

posthuman said:

In fact the text seems to indicate Peter and John prayed for and laid hands on all of them -

Acts 8:14-17
Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Simon would be included in 'them' if 'them' refers to all there in Samaria who had believed and been baptized.
The conversation between the two Simons seems to me to have taken place in the middle of this happening, as though when Simon came to Simon in turn, Simon told him he would pay for a 'double portion' so to speak.

If that's the case what does Simon do after he rebukes Simon? Refuse to lay hands on him at all? Simon makes special request for prayer from Simon, as though this occurs when Simon has come to Simon because it is Simon's turn for prayer and the laying on of hands. Does Simon refuse to pray for Simon?
Why does God choose not to tell us the rest of the story?

Yeah, I don't see any reason to exclude Simon from the "them".

studentoftheword · Jan 9, 2023

MY QUOTE HERE -------
--Simon went to Peter and offered Money to have the Holy Spirit

I say -------
What is it that you don't understand here in this verse ---it says when SIMON SAW -------he offered money

18 However, when Simon saw that the [Holy] Spirit was imparted through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he brought money and offered it to them,

Your quote Here

QUOTE="JohnRH, post: 4995948, member: 268063"]No he didn't. He offered them money to get the power to lay his hands on others so they could receive the Holy Spirit.[/QUOTE]

I say ----What your doing here is ---------putting the Cart before the Horse -------

I say
First Simon has to have the Holy Spirit to have any power to lay hands on anyone --------He offered the MONEY to HAVE the Holy Spirit -----come upon him ---VERSE 18 comes before 19 -----

your skipping a verse so you can be right ------when you are not --------

It says this -----

18 However, when Simon saw that the [Holy] Spirit was imparted through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he brought money and offered it to them,

19 Saying, Grant me also this power and authority, in order that anyone on whom I place my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.

20 But Peter said to him, Destruction overtake your money and you, because you imagined you could obtain the [free] gift of God with money!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AND this is the rest of the Scripture below ============ which says his heart was not good in God's sight -------

What is it that you don't understand here --what it says is very Clear

verse 21--------for your heart is all wrong in God’s sight [it is not straightforward or right or true before God].

21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is all wrong in God’s sight [it is not straightforward or right or true before God].

22 So repent of this depravity and wickedness of yours and pray to the Lord that, if possible, this [a]contriving thought and purpose of your heart may be removed and disregarded and forgiven you.

23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in [b]a bond forged by iniquity [to fetter souls].

24 And Simon answered, Pray for me [beseech the Lord, both of you], that nothing of what you have said may befall me!

posthuman · Jan 11, 2023

studentoftheword said:

If that is so clear what is unclear about this?

Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Or this?

Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Or this?

Acts 10:15-16
And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

studentoftheword · Jan 11, 2023

Simon Did Not receive the Holy Spirit -------Simon was not saved -------

posthuman · Jan 11, 2023

studentoftheword said:

i can find an abundance of verses that tell me whosoever believes will be saved - and a few that say whosoever believes and is baptized.

i can find none that say whosoever is filled with the Holy Spirit . . . ?

Wansvic · Jan 11, 2023

Since there is no record of Simon receiving the Holy Ghost when Peter and John assisted the others, one can conclude that at that point he was not saved. The NT rebirth consists of being water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and receiving the Holy Ghost/Spirit in association with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. (John 3:3-5; Acts 2:38, 8:12-18, 19:1-7, 10:43-48...)

If Simon was sincere in his belief of the entire gospel message it is reasonable to believe that ultimately he was saved. This would be the case since Peter said "Repent, and be baptized (in water) everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin, AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST. We see this specific truth come to pass as expressed in the referenced Samaritan experience, and the 12 Ephesus disciples account as well. (Acts 19:1-7)

Wansvic · Jan 11, 2023

posthuman said:

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9

Wansvic · Jan 11, 2023

posthuman said:

God has a reason for everything He does. Something to ponder:

Why didn't Samaritans receive the Holy Ghost on the same day that they accepted the gospel and got water baptized in Jesus’ name?

Upon hearing and believing the gospel the group was immediately water baptized in Jesus’ name by Philip the Evangelist. I wondered why Peter and John were sent for in order to impart the Holy Ghost. Considering Philip was full of the Holy Ghost why didn’t God just use him? I felt in my spirit that I was missing something. A short while later someone pointed out the scripture in Luke where the Apostle John (who accompanied Peter) was rebuked by Jesus for asking if he and other disciples should call down fire and consume the Samaritans when they would not receive Jesus. (Luke 9:52-56)

Interesting that God gave John a front row seat to witness exactly what Jesus meant when He said “I have come not to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” Yes, the Samaritans did receive fire from Heaven but not to destroy them. The fire come down from Heaven was in the form of the Holy Ghost that the Samaritan people needed in order for them to be saved. Just imagine John’s reaction when he realized that these very people would have lost the opportunity to be saved if Jesus had allowed him to have his way.

posthuman · Jan 11, 2023

Wansvic said:

Is this 'having' the same as the "being filled" that we see in conjunction with the laying on of hands?

or are you saying that no one at all was saved before Pentecost?

studentoftheword · Jan 11, 2023

posthuman said:

I say
And Know this -----when a person is saved they are not Filled with the Holy Spirit they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit --------the Filling of the Holy spirit is given to certain people to do preform Miracles and to do tasks that God has ask them to do -----

the indwelling and filling of the Holy Spirit are 2 different things -----the Disciples were Filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentacost to speak in different languages so the people could understand the Gospel in their town tongue --------

I say
Your Ignorance of knowing Scripture is showing here --------you need to read the Bible more -----

Romans 8:9

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

9 But you are not living the life of the flesh, you are living the life of the Spirit, if the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you].
But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God].

Simon was NOT SAVED ------HE was a fraud

also

Ephesians 1:13-14

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

13 In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in and adhered to and relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit.
14 That [Spirit] is the guarantee of our inheritance [the firstfruits, the pledge and foretaste, the down payment on our heritage], in anticipation of its full redemption and our acquiring [complete] possession of it—to the praise of His glory.

posthuman · Jan 11, 2023

studentoftheword said:

says here we received the Spirit when we heard and believed.
i read that Simon heard and believed.

studentoftheword said:

good point.

so what were Peter & John accomplishing with the laying on of hands?
indwelling or filling?

because if we look even at Romans.. i mean, have you read Romans? is the message of Romans one of faith or of being filled with the Spirit in power?
are we declared righteous by faith or by having hands laid on us with prayer to fill us with the Spirit?

why doesn't Ephesians say "when we laid hands on you and prayed.." -- instead of saying "when you heard and believed" ?

is salvation by faith or by speaking in tongues?

Was Simon the Sorcerer saved?

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