Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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rogerg

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John146 said:
You guilt trip us by saying that we believe that salvation is not all about Christ and what he accomplished. That is absurd. And yes, Calvin was a RCC priest who murdered people.
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If you believe one's salvation is dependent upon anything at all besides what God has done - such as
with anything you may do - you are then beyond doubt saying that you don't believe Christ as the Saviour. There just isn't any other way to understand that or to get around that. It's not hard - it's an either or - He is either fully and completely the Saviour or He isn't - there is no middle ground
 
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ForestGreenCook

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John146 said:
You must add to or take away from the word of God to prove your theology...not good.

Yes, Ephesians 1:13 is a reference to those faithful believers but before they were saved. Paul's explaining how they first heard the word, believed the word, then were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Acts 16:31, the man is asking how to be saved, delivered from sins and have everlasting life.

John 3:16, you must add to the word of God to make it fit your theology.

Calvin was a RCC priest who was a murderer. I suggest you flee his theology.
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As I have said before, I have never read Calvin's writings, or any other of men's writings, except those that were inspired by God which are recorded in the KJV version of the bible.

Scripture proves scripture, if they are all accepted in harmony.
John146 said:
Sorry ForestGreenCook, he was not already saved. He was going to worship the God of the OT, the God of the Jews. He was reading the OT scriptures but had no understanding of who Jesus was. He needed someone to teach him who already had understanding. Philip had the Holy Spirit, but not the Eunuch. Once the Eunuch heard the truth about Jesus, he believed. Nothing whatsoever in the passage leads one to believe otherwise. It is not wise to read a man made theology into the scriptures, instead, leave it for what it says.
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Your wrongly interpreted theology does not allow the scriptures to harmonize.

The eunuch's actions, are not the actions of the unregenerate natural man's actions, who cannot discern the inspired spiritual words of the scriptures, thinking them to be foolishness. He cannot understand the spiritual truths about Jesus. Jesus speaking to Philip; Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world (the unregenerate natural man) cannot receive, because he seeth him not, neither knoweth him
but ye know him for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
 
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VARob

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rogerg said:
If you believe one's salvation is dependent upon anything at all besides what God has done - such as with anything you may do - you are then beyond doubt saying that you don't believe Christ as the Saviour. There just isn't any other way to understand that or to get around that. It's not hard - it's an either or - He is either fully and completely the Saviour or He isn't - there is no middle ground
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Jesus Christ is absolutely the Savior. We disagree on the definition of "Savior."

Jesus does the saving. No one else can. He is the Savior.

God requires about the least thing He could from a person in order for them to be saved, and that is faith in Christ.
 
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rogerg

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VARob said:
Jesus Christ is absolutely the Savior. We disagree on the definition of "Savior."

Jesus does the saving. No one else can. He is the Savior.

God requires about the least thing He could from a person in order for them to be saved, and that is faith in Christ.
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There is only one definition of Saviour and that is that He alone is the one who saves to the uttermost.

[Heb 7:25 KJV] 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Uttermost:
  1. all complete, perfect
  2. completely, perfectly, utterly
If Jesus does do the saving as you seem to agree with, then by definition, He must do everything associated with the saving, with absolutely nothing that was left out of it by Him neither was left for us to fulfill.

Sorry, there is no wiggle room on this. Things, whether they be of the least or of the greatest, if true, would necessitate a person's actions for their completion, thereby making Christ at best a co-saviour with them. But Christ is not a co-saviour. He alone is THE Saviour who grants salvation in its fulness as a gift to those whom He has so chosen to have it. Anything short of that denies Christ His due as the Saviour.
 
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VARob

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rogerg said:
There is only one definition of Saviour and that is that He alone is the one who saves to the uttermost.

[Heb 7:25 KJV] 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Uttermost:
  1. all complete, perfect
  2. completely, perfectly, utterly
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Yes, those who put their faith in Christ are saved to the uttermost.

If Jesus does do the saving as you seem to agree with, then by definition, He must do everything associated with the saving, with absolutely nothing that was left out of it by Him neither was left for us to fulfill.
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By the Calvinist definition, but that's not reality.

Sorry, there is no wiggle room on this.
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Of course there is. God gave people free will. He wants everyone to be saved. (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eze 33:11; Acts 16:30-31).

Things, whether they be of the least or of the greatest, if true, would necessitate a person's actions for their completion, thereby making Christ at best a co-saviour with them. But Christ is not a co-saviour. He alone is THE Saviour who grants salvation in its fulness as a gift to those whom He has so chosen to have it. Anything short of that denies Christ His due as the Saviour.
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Again, we have different understandings of the word "Savior."

While not exactly the same, this reminds me of the story of the guy stuck in a hurricane. He's on his roof and his house is surrounded by water. A deeply religious man, he prayed for God to save him. Soon the Sheriff's department comes by in a boat. "Come on, we'll save you!" The guy says "no, thanks. I know God will save me." The water rises. Soon a Coast Guard helicopter comes by. They lower a rope and say "Grab hold, we'll save you!" The guy says "No! I know God will save me!" The water rises more, sweeps the guy off the roof of his house and he dies. Upon arriving in heaven, he asks God why He wouldn't save him. "I sent you the Sheriff, and I sent you the Coast Guard! What more were you expecting?"

Through Jesus Christ, salvation is available to anyone who chooses to believe the gospel, something anyone has the capacity to do.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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brightfame52 said:
Yes they are unable to believe. Jesus says man cannot come to Him unless the Father draws them Jn 6:44 Thats what Jesus means, man cant believe in Him save for Divine Intervention.
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"Metanoia" states otherwise and destroys Calvinism.

You have a modern day mindset which is not at all connected to the reality of biblical times.
 
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John146

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There is a point in time when God knows you as a son. It's not from the foundation of the world. "After that ye...are known of God."

Galatians 4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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ForestGreenCook said:
As I have said before, I have never read Calvin's writings, or any other of men's writings, except those that were inspired by God which are recorded in the KJV version of the bible.

Scripture proves scripture, if they are all accepted in harmony.



Your wrongly interpreted theology does not allow the scriptures to harmonize.

The eunuch's actions, are not the actions of the unregenerate natural man's actions, who cannot discern the inspired spiritual words of the scriptures, thinking them to be foolishness. He cannot understand the spiritual truths about Jesus. Jesus speaking to Philip; Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world (the unregenerate natural man) cannot receive, because he seeth him not, neither knoweth him
but ye know him for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
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Scripture can be harmonized, by misinterpreting a multitude of verses.

So the harmony of scripture does not mean the system is correct.
 
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John146

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ForestGreenCook said:
Your wrongly interpreted theology does not allow the scriptures to harmonize.
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All scripture is written FOR us, but not all scripture is written TO us. No need to harmonize all scripture to fit the body of Christ, simply, rightly divide the word of truth.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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rogerg said:
Faith is a work - but only God's work to accomplish, not ours.

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
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John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and
believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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VARob said:
Yes, those who put their faith in Christ are saved to the uttermost.


By the Calvinist definition, but that's not reality.


Of course there is. God gave people free will. He wants everyone to be saved. (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eze 33:11; Acts 16:30-31).


Again, we have different understandings of the word "Savior."

While not exactly the same, this reminds me of the story of the guy stuck in a hurricane. He's on his roof and his house is surrounded by water. A deeply religious man, he prayed for God to save him. Soon the Sheriff's department comes by in a boat. "Come on, we'll save you!" The guy says "no, thanks. I know God will save me." The water rises. Soon a Coast Guard helicopter comes by. They lower a rope and say "Grab hold, we'll save you!" The guy says "No! I know God will save me!" The water rises more, sweeps the guy off the roof of his house and he dies. Upon arriving in heaven, he asks God why He wouldn't save him. "I sent you the Sheriff, and I sent you the Coast Guard! What more were you expecting?"

Through Jesus Christ, salvation is available to anyone who chooses to believe the gospel, something anyone has the capacity to do.
Click to expand...

In your example, God did save him. The day of our death is better than the day of our birth.
 
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rogerg

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VARob said:
Yes, those who put their faith in Christ are saved to the uttermost.
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Where in the verse do you find that something is required of the recipient? It says only they that "come to God by him" - BY HIM
You've added words to the verse that it just does not say.

[Heb 7:25 KJV] 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

VARob said:
By the Calvinist definition, but that's not reality.
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Not only is it a spiritual reality, itis THE spiritual reality. It is that upon which the entire Bible was built. Otherwise, there
can be no Saviour. You are left under the saviour that you propose - a kind of, but not really, saviour, by which, you remain under works.

VARob said:
Of course there is. God gave people free will. He wants everyone to be saved. (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eze 33:11; Acts 16:30-31).
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Of course not. No one dead in spiritual sin can have a free will. Just as a physically dead person cannot make
decisions regarding human life, neither can a spiritually dead person make decisions regarding spiritual life.

[1Ti 2:4 KJV] 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The "all" of 1Ti. 2:24 is defined in Jhn6:37 below. That "all" is all those given to Jesus by the Father, not everyone.

[Jhn 6:36-37 KJV] 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The salutation of 2 Pet 1:1 explains who the intended audience is of the 2 Pet 3:9. It is not to everyone but only to those who have THROUGH Jesus Christ obtained "like precious faith". They alone are the "us-ward".

[2Pe 3:9 KJV] 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Eze 33:11 was directed to the earthly house of OT Isarel. They followed and worshipped false gods and had turned away from the
LORD committing fornication. This verse is not about a path to eternal spiritual salvation by grace.

[Eze 33:11 KJV] 11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

VARob said:
Again, we have different understandings of the word "Savior."
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Yeah, I've heard that joke before too. We definitely have differing views of the Saviour. Mine who saves
solely through His grace, which grace was provided by His faith and not by our works. He has already satisfied all needed for the salvation of His people. Yours, not so much. No other Saviour can meet/has met all of the requirements of a Saviour that He must imbue for Him to be the one.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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John146 said:
There is a point in time when God knows you as a son. It's not from the foundation of the world. "After that ye...are known of God."

Galatians 4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Click to expand...

God predetermined, before the foundation of the world, that Christ would adopt, those that he choose, as his adopted children.
 
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rogerg

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Magenta said:
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and
believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
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Well, the seeing of that verse is spiritual sight, not physical sight. To have spiritual sight, one must first be born again.
Regarding the "believes", true belief comes as a fruit of the Spirit upon being born-again. Until born-again,
no one can truly believe.

[Jhn 3:3 KJV] 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
 
Magenta

Magenta

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rogerg said:
Where in the verse do you find that something is required of the recipient? It says only they that "come to God by him" - BY HIM
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Isn't "coming to God" doing something?
 
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rogerg

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Magenta said:
Isn't "coming to God" doing something?
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Not if it is Jesus who makes that happen. He Himself, picks us up from where we were spiritually, and puts us in a new
place. We do nothing.
 
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