Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I have been on other forums, and they all do it, if you stand upon certain scriptures in defense of the truth of the gospel.
I know, and it is odd, how even if you agree with one point, they will think you are Calvinist,
when that very same point is accepted across the vast majority of Christendom, because
it is irrefutably taught in Scripture. What becomes apparent is that people kick and scream
about their own faulty understanding/definition of what that particular point teaches.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
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Yes, He did:

[Jer 3:8 KJV] 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

No, He did not. Romans 11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

The Jews have been blinded for a time. Read the whole of Romans. God has not rejected the Jews. And this is where many problems come in when Gentiles try to place themselves in Scripture where God has the Jews. Replacement Theology is false doctrine, both the Catholic and Protestant churches repented of this doctrine after the Holocaust. Sadly it's still alive today.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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No, He did not. Romans 11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

The Jews have been blinded for a time. Read the whole of Romans. God has not rejected the Jews. And this is where many problems come in when Gentiles try to place themselves in Scripture where God has the Jews. Replacement Theology is false doctrine, both the Catholic and Protestant churches repented of this doctrine after the Holocaust. Sadly it's still alive today.
Didn't you read the verse I quoted showing God's divorce of Israel'?

[Jer 3:8 KJV] 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Those that He "foreknew" are the of the elect, a remnant chosen by grace, not because they are of the nation of Israel

[Rom 11:5 KJV] 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

[Rom 11:7 KJV] 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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I have been on other forums, and they all do it, if you stand upon certain scriptures in defense of the truth of the gospel.

I have never read any of Calvin's writings, or any other man's interpretations of the scriptures. I believe that scripture proves scripture, if all scriptures are taken into consideration. I get accused of being a calvinist, no matter what forum that I am on.

Calvinism is ubiquitous.
Are you saying not one single person has ever taught you scripture?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,186
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Didn't you read the verse I quoted showing God's divorce of Israel'?

[Jer 3:8 KJV] 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Those that He "foreknew" are the of the elect, a remnant chosen by grace, not because they are of the nation of Israel

[Rom 11:5 KJV] 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

[Rom 11:7 KJV] 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Romans 9:6b-8 Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel... It is the children of promise who are regarded as offspring.
:)
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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The Jews that were disobedient when Israel was in the wilderness were cut off from Israel which the Bible says take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God but exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Your quote from Heb 3 - The old generation of Israel were not able to enter into his rest, because of their unbelief, God caused them to go around in circles in the wilderness, until they all died of old age, they were still his people, and retained their promise of an eternal inheritance.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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The publican genuinely repented. While he could have, the Pharisee did not.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

It was the counsel of God for the Pharisees to be baptized by John. They rejected it.
John nor Jesus wasnt going to baptize them anyway, baptism was for those whom the Spirit of God worked in them to see their sinfulness and need for Christ. John had said to some pharisees once Matt 3:7-9

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

So also you misquoted, it doesnt say "It was the counsel of God for the Pharisees to be baptized by John. They rejected it"

The pharisees rejected it as in they didnt feel like they needed any baptism for repentance. See to be baptized in water was accompanied with confessing sin Matt 3:1-7

In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

in Lk 7:30

The pharisees rejected or despised or disregarded the counsel of God.

Men cant otherwise reject the eternal counsel of God Ps 33:11

The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

Prov 19:21

There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.

May God be pleased to give you understanding friend
 

montana123

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2021
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For someone being dead in sin, they can make no choice but to remain dead in sin. For it to be otherwise,
God must intervene. Those who are lost (the unbelievers), unless God had chosen them to be saved, they are condemned already.

[Jhn 3:18 KJV] 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
You are correct that is why I put this in my post.

We did not choose God but He chose us.

No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

No person calls Jesus the Lord but by the Holy Spirit.

Many are called but few are chosen.

When God calls a person He will work in their life to get them to the truth but when they get to the door of truth they have to choose to walk through it because God's kingdom is true love but they would of not got to the door of truth unless God intervened in their life for the flesh will not come to the truth on its own for in the flesh dwells no good thing.

God's kingdom is true love so and He is not evil to condemn people who do not have the choice so we have to have a choose in our salvation and all people get the chance for God is no respecter of persons and He is the Savior of all men.

No person is saved unless God intervenes in their life first when he calls them according to their heart condition and then works in their life to get them to the truth.

Which not many noble, wise after the flesh, and mighty, are called.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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When God calls a person He will work in their life to get them to the truth but when they get to the door of truth they have to choose to walk through it because God's kingdom is true love but they would of not got to the door of truth unless God intervened in their life for the flesh will not come to the truth on its own for in the flesh dwells no good thing.
Disagree. A spiritually dead person cannot make a choice to make themselves alive spiritually, just as a physically dead
person cannot make a choice to make themselves alive physically. Dead is dead. God did not choose to say
dead in sin for no reason - He uses words very carefully.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Only the Holy Spirit can teach scripture.
Many teach. Perhaps what you mean is that it is the Holy Spirit of God Who opens our eyes to the Truth of that which is being taught. May seem like a persnickey distinction, and one could ask/argue, is one teaching if learning does not concurrently occur, but we often need to be exposed to something multiple times before we come to a fuller understanding of it. God does equip some to teach, and their competence comes from God.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Yes, that's where I expect a lot of this issue comes from and I need to look into it deeper. God did not divorce the Jews, nor Israel. He made an unconditional covenant with them and there are still promises He had yet to keep. The church does not replace the Jews, that is false doctrine. Romans 11 is the backup to that statement.

You are right, God blinded them for their unbelief, until they repent, but God did not take away their promise of eternal heaven.

Israel in these scriptures are not the whole nation of Israel, because God changed Jacob's name in Gen 32:28, to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel, and Jacob, as Israel represents spiritual Israel, to show that his election might stand (Rom 9:11) All Jacob/Israel is not of the nation of Israel. (Rom 9::6). Jacob/Israel is spiritual Israel, (the church-the bride of Christ) and is made up of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9).
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Many teach. Perhaps what you mean is that it is the Holy Spirit of God Who opens our eyes to the Truth of that which is being taught. May seem like a persnickey distinction, and one could ask/argue, is one teaching if learning does not concurrently occur, but we often need to be exposed to something multiple times before we come to a fuller understanding of it. God does equip some to teach, and their competence comes from God.
Okay, I won't disagree with you on that but I can see the case that the one we learn the lesson from is the one that has done the teaching, but I guess it can be valid both ways
 

montana123

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2021
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Your quote from Heb 3 - The old generation of Israel were not able to enter into his rest, because of their unbelief, God caused them to go around in circles in the wilderness, until they all died of old age, they were still his people, and retained their promise of an eternal inheritance.
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

There is a warning to the saints to not fall victim to the same attitude of the disobedient Jews which if they do then they have departed from the living God so how are they saved if they departed from the living God which is by the deceitfulness of sins.

So if they fall victim to the same fate as those disobedient in the wilderness then they would not enter in to God's rest which would be the spiritual realm a spiritual rest.

And it says they departed from the living God by the deceitfulness of sins then the Jews who were disobedient departed from the living God so how were they saved.

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Any person that has been saved and then goes back to sinning is like a sow that was cleaned going back to their wallowing in the mud, and it would of been better if they had not known the truth than to depart from it.

The Jews who were disobedient were broken off and were not part of Israel anymore.

The Bible says for the saints to not be highminded but fear lest God not spare them either for if they do not continue in the goodness of God as the Jews in the Old Testament then they would also be cut off.