Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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No brother, I am 100% sure of what I read in the Word and the character of God. Christ died for all. I have no doubt. God is just, and is also fair. For determinism to be true that would make God the author of evil and chaos in the world. I don't see that when I read the Word.Everything about God's character tells me He died for every single person. We can agree to disagree, I still appreciate your posts and there is a lot we do agree on. Blessings.
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In the real world, so to speak, I have wonderful Christian friends. Some believe OSAS to some degree. I have never lost fellowship with any of them because of it. I often visit a church that believe OSAS because my own church is quite a distance from me. They treat my whole family like part of their church family. I could call on them if I were in need. Wonderful Christian folk.
That being said, I do not believe God created some to be saved and others for destruction.I still believe Christ died for all.
The Word says it, I believe it, and that settles it. When we think of the character of God, when we truly understand who He is, we could never believe in determinism. God is 100% just and fair. If God's own chosen people are not "elect" no one is.
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Consider the Saviour in this way: whoever does not become saved, were not save because Christ was not their Saviour. It is not possible for Christ to have been their Saviour yet not save them, otherwise, they would have been. The Saviour is only the Saviour because He saves those who are to be saved - not because He might have saved those who aren't, so, for the others, He is not Saviour. Both cannot be true at the same time - that He is their Saviour, yet at the same time, He doesn't save them.
"many" (but not "all") live because "many" (but not "all") have been given eternal life and are alive spiritually; "many" (but not "all") die(d) because eternal life was withheld from them.
Those for whom He is the Saviour, cannot be more than those the Father gave to Him, all of which MUST become saved (per the below verse). Conversely, those not given to Christ by the Father, can NEVER become saved, because they were NOT given by the Father.
Those who have already become saved are the "especially" group; He is the Saviour also of those yet to be saved, the elect - they have been elected to salvation but are not yet made of the "especially" group.
Look at it this way, if Christ is in fact the Saviour of all men and yet some don't become saved, then without question, He simply
cannot have been their Saviour: the Saviour MUST save completely, in and of Himself, period.
[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
It is the world to come. Had Christ not been successful in His ministry and justified His saved, then a world to come would not have been possible because without those who are to inhabit it, there could be no world to come.
So, you're saying the Bible is wrong about itself and that you are really its true judge? Really? That is pretty arrogant and just flat wrong. The Bible never goes against itself, but it does complete itself - that is why there is both an OT and a NT.
"many" (but not "all") live because "many" (but not "all") have been given eternal life and are alive spiritually; "many" (but not "all") die(d) because eternal life was withheld from them.
Those for whom He is the Saviour, cannot be more than those the Father gave to Him, all of which MUST become saved (per the below verse). Conversely, those not given to Christ by the Father, can NEVER become saved, because they were NOT given by the Father.
Those who have already become saved are the "especially" group; He is the Saviour also of those yet to be saved, the elect - they have been elected to salvation but are not yet made of the "especially" group.
Look at it this way, if Christ is in fact the Saviour of all men and yet some don't become saved, then without question, He simply
cannot have been their Saviour: the Saviour MUST save completely, in and of Himself, period.
[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
It is the world to come. Had Christ not been successful in His ministry and justified His saved, then a world to come would not have been possible because without those who are to inhabit it, there could be no world to come.
So, you're saying the Bible is wrong about itself and that you are really its true judge? Really? That is pretty arrogant and just flat wrong. The Bible never goes against itself, but it does complete itself - that is why there is both an OT and a NT.
God makes clear that He does whatsoever He desires to do with no apology to anyone.
[Rom 9:15 KJV] 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[Psa 115:3 KJV] 3 But our God [is] in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased
[Job 23:13 KJV] 13 But he [is] in one [mind], and who can turn him? and [what] his soul desireth, even [that] he doeth.
[Rom 9:15 KJV] 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[Psa 115:3 KJV] 3 But our God [is] in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased
[Job 23:13 KJV] 13 But he [is] in one [mind], and who can turn him? and [what] his soul desireth, even [that] he doeth.
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ludicrous
adjective
lu·di·crous ˈlü-də-krəs
Synonyms of ludicrous
1
: amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
2
: meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish
ludicrously adverb
ludicrousness noun
adjective
lu·di·crous ˈlü-də-krəs
Synonyms of ludicrous
1
: amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
2
: meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish
ludicrously adverb
ludicrousness noun
Just is probably the better word than fair. And I'm speaking of salvation. God would not be just if He determined some would be saved and some would be lost. The verses I have been sharing people seem to be ignoring. I believe they show that Christ died for all. Looks like that popcorn is gonna go stale again.
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