Saddleback Church Ousted from Southern Baptist Convention Over Female Pastor

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

It gets discussed often in CC.

I think if we could ask Paul if he was teaching that a woman should never be considered as a pastor under any circumstances that he would say, that was not what he was writing about and that people have taken it upon themselves to go put words in the text that are not there.

I don't need other books or to pretend to interview him. That's speculation. I'd rather just go by what Paul wrote in the Bible. He's pretty to the point too and says what he means.

 

[Beckie]

It gets discussed often in CC.

Careful exegesis of the texts in question reveals that Paul was not taking up the matter of whether a woman could be a pastor throughout the history of the church. They were addressing local issues to the churches being written to.

I think if we could ask Paul if he was teaching that a woman should never be considered as a pastor under any circumstances that he would say, that was not what he was writing about and that people have taken it upon themselves to go put words in the text that are not there.

Google "Philip Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "1 Timothy 2: 11-15: Meaning and Significance"

Dr. Gordon Fee has suggested these two articles (the one by Moo, and the one by Payne responding to him) are very good examples of excellent scholarly presentations of both sides of the discussion. The reader can determine which one does a better job.

exactly why we should stay in the confines of the Scriptures, trying not to think for God.. Google does not have the wisdom of God

 

[ButterflyJones]

*Shrug* Should I be upset because you disapprove? If you want to be a female pastor, go ahead.

"But as for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord" - the way He wants.

Condescension isn't becoming.

Paul praised the women that pastored his churches.
As long as Paul's women pastors, deaconesses, prophetesses, served his church and are recognized and praised by Paul for that service, those who contradict Paul and his teaching that said there is no male, female, Greek, or Jew, we are all one in Christ, women in church offices will always be right with the Lord

Texts that entered in after and contradict Paul and his church are not valid. When God said we are all one in Christ Jesus, and those gender roles that ruled the Jews in their time, and still do in the Orthodox community, are now overcome in Christ, that's it.

So, those who discriminate against women and insist God would never to call them to pastor or hold office in his church will never serve the Lord. Because one cannot sin against God and call that service.

And that's it.
Countless women serving God as leaders in his churches show God's will is in place.

In the secular world women are generals in the U. S military. Senators, and all manner of other offices of authority.

Men, and even women, who insist on contradicting God, insisting there is male and female, Jew ,as in those who condemn Christians who observe Sabbath,holy days, because those are "Jewish", Greek, because we are not all one in Christ, are not serving the Lord.
Nor are they respectful of scripture.

And it doesn't serve to argue with them because when they openly counter God's will, people will never reach them.

 

[ButterflyJones]

It gets discussed often in CC.

Careful exegesis of the texts in question reveals that Paul was not taking up the matter of whether a woman could be a pastor throughout the history of the church. They were addressing local issues to the churches being written to.

I think if we could ask Paul if he was teaching that a woman should never be considered as a pastor under any circumstances that he would say, that was not what he was writing about and that people have taken it upon themselves to go put words in the text that are not there.

Google "Philip Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "1 Timothy 2: 11-15: Meaning and Significance"

Dr. Gordon Fee has suggested these two articles (the one by Moo, and the one by Payne responding to him) are very good examples of excellent scholarly presentations of both sides of the discussion. The reader can determine which one does a better job.

Odd that you would put words in Paul's mouth in that hypothetical.

When Paul's words and churches praised women pastors, and women in other offices too, its putting words in Paul's mouth and God's when anyone claims women cannot be called to preach, or hold authority in the church.

 

[Mem]

Odd that you would put words in Paul's mouth in that hypothetical.

When Paul's words and churches praised women pastors, and women in other offices too, its putting words in Paul's mouth and God's when anyone claims women cannot be called to preach, or hold authority in the church.

I think you've read the other posters' sentiments into Scribes. His position is in defending women pastors.

 

[ButterflyJones]

I think you've read the other posters' sentiments into Scribes. His position is in defending women pastors.

You're right. My apologies @Scribe.

 

[Mem]

It gets discussed often in CC.

Careful exegesis of the texts in question reveals that Paul was not taking up the matter of whether a woman could be a pastor throughout the history of the church. They were addressing local issues to the churches being written to.

I think if we could ask Paul if he was teaching that a woman should never be considered as a pastor under any circumstances that he would say, that was not what he was writing about and that people have taken it upon themselves to go put words in the text that are not there.

Google "Philip Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "1 Timothy 2: 11-15: Meaning and Significance"

Dr. Gordon Fee has suggested these two articles (the one by Moo, and the one by Payne responding to him) are very good examples of excellent scholarly presentations of both sides of the discussion. The reader can determine which one does a better job.

Hi Scribe! Welcome back!
I didn't check into the references to Dr Moo and Fee but I might note it for later reading.
I don't believe Paul is writing about women pastors there, whoever that agrees with, or he would've written the intro, "concerning women pastors, or deaconess, or prophetesses..." but he specifically addresses the position of 'wife,' and those instructions are only relative to conduct toward her 'husband.' The chapter lead in with the idea of unity and the concept of unity is consistently maintained throughout, beginning with the body of Christ, "all men lifting holy hands," without anger or dissention, all the way down to the marriage "unit."
There was a time that the language was inclusive when referencing "all men." Nowadays, it has morphed into a gender specific terminology and understanding, which of course, misses what was actually meant at the time written.

 

[Scribe]

I don't need other books or to pretend to interview him. That's speculation. I'd rather just go by what Paul wrote in the Bible. He's pretty to the point too and says what he means.

Therefore we conclude he did not say a woman could not be a pastor. I agree He never said those words.

But people still say such things and blame it on something Paul said. When asked to show where, they give a verse that does not say that. And insist that Paul said something about women speaking in pulpits. When pulpits were not yet invented. But they insist on saying such things as "Paul said a woman cannot preach in the pulpit when men are present or they are usurping authority over a man" Paul said no such thing. It is an interpretation of something Paul said and a very poor one. Exegeting the scriptures yields nothing about a pulpit and it is impossible that Paul could have had pulpits in mind when he wrote it since pulpits were not yet invented.

Also, attempting to understand what the author intended is not speculation it is hermeneutics and exegesis and if one does not do it they have no business teaching whether they be men or women.

 

[Mem]

Therefore we conclude he did not say a woman could not be a pastor. I agree He never said those words.

But people still say such things and blame it on something Paul said. When asked to show where, they give a verse that does not say that. And insist that Paul said something about women speaking in pulpits. When pulpits were not yet invented. But they insist on saying such things as "Paul said a woman cannot preach in the pulpit when men are present or they are usurping authority over a man" Paul said no such thing. It is an interpretation of something Paul said and a very poor one. Exegeting the scriptures yields nothing about a pulpit and it is impossible that Paul could have had pulpits in mind when he wrote it since pulpits were not yet invented.

Also, attempting to understand what the author intended is not speculation it is hermeneutics and exegesis and if one does not do it they have no business teaching whether they be men or women.

I agree! The entire chapter is speaking toward UNITY in the Church which, ironically, the southern Baptists? seem to be having some struggles with...

 

[Scribe]

Hi Scribe! Welcome back!
I didn't check into the references to Dr Moo and Fee but I might note it for later reading.
I don't believe Paul is writing about women pastors there, whoever that agrees with, or he would've written the intro, "concerning women pastors, or deaconess, or prophetesses..." but he specifically addresses the position of 'wife,' and those instructions are only relative to conduct toward her 'husband.' The chapter lead in with the idea of unity and the concept of unity is consistently maintained throughout, beginning with the body of Christ, "all men lifting holy hands," without anger or dissention, all the way down to the marriage "unit."
There was a time that the language was inclusive when referencing "all men." Nowadays, it has morphed into a gender specific terminology and understanding, which of course, misses what was actually meant at the time written.

Thanks for the Welcome. And thanks for expressing an intellectually honest view of these passages. Good teachers must give students the opportunity to apply rules of hermeneutics to these passages as all others even if their conclusions contradict denominational dogma.

 

[Mem]

Think about it. What if Adam and Eve would've stood in solidarity against the serpent? I'm certain this is what Paul was speaking to considering this chapter follows the chapter warning against false teachers.

 

[Scribe]

Think about it. What if Adam and Eve would've stood in solidarity against the serpent? I'm certain this is what Paul was speaking to considering this chapter follows the chapter warning against false teachers.

It could be that there were women at Ephesus being deceived by false teachers who were leading them with sensational teachings that they were trying to spread and their husbands whom God would use to correct them and warn them were being dismissed by these wives who thought they had a superior "revelation" that was actually a bad teaching that if they would listen to their husbands they could avoid being lead astray. Thus the admonition about Adam and Eve as an example. These are some of the things that probably involved in the context of the Ephesus church Paul is addressing Timothy to correct.

 

[Mem]

The verse about a (troublesome?) woman being saved in childbirth always perplexed me. But I can understand it now if put in its proper context. A woman who appears to place herself at odds with her husband is redeemed of that image in bearing him children, as it bears witness to her commitment to him. Yes, I think that is the best interpretation of what otherwise would be such an odd interjection.

 

[Mem]

It could be that there were women at Ephesus being deceived by false teachers who were leading them with sensational teachings that they were trying to spread and their husbands whom God would use to correct them and warn them were being dismissed by these wives who thought they had a superior "revelation" that was actually a bad teaching that if they would listen to their husbands they could avoid being lead astray. Thus the admonition about Adam and Eve as an example. These are some of the things that probably involved in the context of the Ephesus church Paul is addressing Timothy to correct.

At any rate, whichever was in error, they were to discuss their contentions at home. And, hopefully, reach an agreement, to arrive again in unity.

 

[Beckie]

Born while my dad was in Bible School literally been in around church all my life never met a woman pastor that was not wacked in some way.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Not sure what you mean but there has never been female pastors in the early Church. Not for hundreds upon hundreds of years. It is a recent phenomenon. Sure other serving ministries okay. As the Bible describes them.

I don't know what time frame you're using to describe the early church. However, Paul's churches had both women and men in what today is called the pastoral or ministerial offices, as well as other offices of service. They were elders, presbyteros. Often called overseer or supervisor, episkopos.

Acts 18:24-26
New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition
Ministry of Apollos
24 Now there came to Ephesus a Jew named Apollos from Alexandria. He was an eloquent man, well-versed in the scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the Way of the Lord, and he spoke with burning enthusiasm and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him they took him aside and explained the Way of God to him more accurately.

Phoebe the deacon ,diakonos, in Romans 16.
Passages in scripture also talk about those women who were the head of their household. And there's more.

I will say if someone thinks God can't call women to bring his word and help lead people to his message, they're wrong.

It was a man that got us into this mess in the beginning. Romans 5 12,“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world.”


Because he couldn't lead his woman to obey God rather than be tempted by a snake to disobey God.

Thinking God wouldn't call women to bring the message that leads humanity to repentance from that sin, or to be leaders in service to God when the first man failed as a leader, is silly and biblically indefensible.
The countless women in service under God's appointment today proves God knows what he's doing.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The verse about a (troublesome?) woman being saved in childbirth always perplexed me.

That verse is NOT about troublesome women. It is about how women can work out their salvation through their ministry within the family (as wives and mothers).

The role of Christian mothers in bringing up children cannot be overstressed. But ever since the 1960s Western women (and more recently feminists) have shown their disdain for the role that God has given them as wives and mothers, by focusing on work outside the home, competing with men, and wearing pantsuits to show that they are equal (or more than equal to men). The emasculation of men in the West (and particularly in America) has been going on for a long time. This has also led to many divorces, single mothers, etc. But God's ideal women is depicted in Proverbs 31:10-31. This describes a well respected woman who fully exercises her ministry.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Long Combative Monologue

I don't know why you're trying to impose your view on me. I could see you were set on how you read Paul in your other posts, but I let you be because this is a thread exploring that topic and all views are allowed for all to consider.

I read Paul's words just as they are, so I don't see him recommending women being in positions of authority over men. So I'm going to live by that. If you want to live by your view that he said the opposite, I'm fine with that.

Why can't you leave me to serve God as He reveals His word to me? I trust God with you and how He's teaching you. That's why I'm not motivated to try to change your mind or anyone else's since it's already set.

Besides, shaming doesn't work on me. I know my God and His Word and His opinion is the only one that counts to me. Smh....

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Therefore we conclude he did not say a woman could not be a pastor.

No, no. That's YOUR conclusion, not mine or anyone else's. Please don't speak for me or for everyone else. It's dishonest.

Say that it's YOUR conclusion and own up to it.

I know people who do that that say "Oh, EVERYBODY thinks this way...." or "EVERYBODY prefers that thing...." to try to impose their choices or views on everyone. It's just not cool.

Also, attempting to understand what the author intended is not speculation it is hermeneutics and exegesis and if one does not do it they have no business teaching whether they be men or women.

No it IS speculation because there is nothing to back it up from scripture. Scripture backs up scripture. Otherwise you're just adding or subtracting stuff into God's word.

-=<*>=-

These are definitely the last days. Satan is working hard to turn all of God's ways upside down and try to corrupt as many of God's people away from Him. All of you who belong to Him, please stick close to Him and don't wander far from Him or His Word.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Born while my dad was in Bible School literally been in around church all my life never met a woman pastor that was not wacked in some way.

Do chaplains count? Because I know of a female chaplain when I worked with at a VA Regional Medical Center and honestly she is so full of God's light!

I met her first in another VA Regional Medical Center where I was externing during nursing school and we both started there at the same time.

Then several years later, we ran into each again in an entirely different state hundreds of miles away to work at the same place, starting at the same time. So that was NOT coincidental. I really believe God had us meet again because God wanted to show me what she was about: she was such a blessing to everyone she came into contact with, not just the VA patients, but other employees as well. How I see it, is God approves of her in her position.

So I wondered about what the Bible said about that and the Bible shows that God does make exceptions where there is a lack of male authority. That hospital is in a rural area with a small town and serves a huge radius around it. It might be that very few chaplain applications were ever sent to it since it's not a very interesting area (I myself left after three years - it's SO BORING THERE).