water baptism in Jesus' Name.

[The_Watchers_2017]

"Have you heard of Jesus' death on the cross? for us? His sinless blood shed as the Lamb of God?"
This does not answer the question, it is but a generality. Again, at what point do we receive the remission of sins?

Did you believe that Jesus was God, when you first was Saved, before you got Water Baptized?
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved


Nowhere, is Water Baptism listed.

 

[heartwashed]

If someone has trusted in the Lord for salvation, and isn't baptised, they are saved. The thief on the cross evidences that.

Also, if someone has trusted in the Lord for salvation, and gets baptised, they are saved. Plenty of instances in scripture evidence that.

So then, this really is a case of conviction.

If you feel it is wrong not to be baptised, because of the scriptures you have read, then you MUST be baptised.
And likewise, if you understand baptism to be unnecessary and feel you would be trusting in the act rather than in Christ for part of your salvation, don't do it.
To do it , or to not do it, with doubt, makes it the opposite of what it should be.

We are wrong to ask people to go against their own convictions in this matter. Christ didn't scream out from the cross, quick someone, splash this thief before he dies, else he shall perish. It clearly was not a requirement for salvation. He told that thief he would be with Him in paradise. Who are we to go around telling others they wont be if they don't get baptised?

When we can see evidence of people being accepted by Christ both ways, why are we making such a song and dance about it? We end up arguing and condemning each other for doing or not doing... for eating or not eating, for washing or not washing... etc. And instead of gently teaching each other and letting God work on the understanding, we become stumbling blocks instead to those who disagree with us.

This certainly doesn't fulfil Christs teaching.

Col 2:11, In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12, Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

As baptism is related to circumcision in the above passage and can be said to be the circumcision of the New Testament, I think that the following teaching is pertinent to our discussion.

Rom 4:9, Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10, How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11, And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12, And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Abraham's faith was reckoned as righteousness before he was circumcised; and circumcision sealed the deal.

He is also the father of those who are not circumcised (baptized) and yet have faith.

So, what is the value of circumcision (baptism), if your faith is counted as righteousness without it?

See above verses (Colossians 2:11-12)...

circumcision means that the body of the sins of the flesh is put away from you.

This is entire sanctification...

Something that would be desired by anyone who says with Paul what he says in Romans 7:24...

Rom 7:24, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

It is even good news to them...and something that they would want to take steps towards receiving.

If not, then I, personally, would doubt their salvation.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Did you believe that Jesus was God, when you first was Saved, before you got Water Baptized?
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved


Nowhere, is Water Baptism listed.

I am ASKING, DID YOU, Lamar, do this BEFORE Water Baptism?
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

That is Scripture: So, if you did not, confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, Water Baptism, is nothing more than a Bath without Soap.

 

[heartwashed]

I am ASKING, DID YOU, Lamar, do this BEFORE Water Baptism?
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

That is Scripture: So, if you did not, confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, Water Baptism, is nothing more than a Bath without Soap.

Yes indeed, it is simply getting wet if you do not have faith in the promise (Colossians 2:12).

 

[Lamar]

I believe we're forgiven the moment we believe and accept Christ's atoning sacrifice for us. Baptism is important but it doesn't save us; it's not the point at which we're forgiven. It's like when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Lazarus was made alive but Jesus told those there to remove his grave clothes. Likewise, baptism is removing the grave clothes and putting on Christ.

"I believe we're forgiven the moment we believe and accept Christ's atoning sacrifice"

This is faith alone regeneration theology and is a theology without an example.

"Baptism is important but it doesn't save us"

It is more than important, it is the point in time of the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38)

Baptism does not save but it is the point in time of salvation.

Baptism is referred to as a burial and resurrection. Baptism is the point in time of the remission of sins.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

"I believe we're forgiven the moment we believe and accept Christ's atoning sacrifice"

This is faith alone regeneration theology and is a theology without an example.

"Baptism is important but it doesn't save us"

It is more than important, it is the point in time of the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38)

Baptism does not save but it is the point in time of salvation.

Baptism is referred to as a burial and resurrection. Baptism is the point in time of the remission of sins.

There is true value in Water Baptism. It really is more for the one being Baptized. There's several reasons outside of Biblical reasons we do get Baptized. When I was Baptized, I knew it was just an Appearance of Tradition we do but however with sincere Reverence. I knew there was a lot of connection to Death and Burial and Resurrection of Christ. And I knew, it placed me in a category with everyone else who was Baptized, it was another connection to my Parents and Family members who were already Living for God, and it was part of my now own Testimony.

Now grant it, that is Important stuff and Reasons i just listed. But, it's still only Water Baptism. I had already confessed Christ after receiving Him into my heart, because, I did then, and still do, absolutely Believe, that God rose Him from the Dead! So water Baptism, is merely icing on the cake. Cake [Salvation], is Wonderful on its own, but Icing [Water Baptism], just makes it feel more complete when you bring the Two together..

 

[heartwashed]

cake just isn't really cake without the icing...

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

cake just isn't really cake without the icing...

I have to agree!

 

[heartwashed]

Col 2:11, In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12, Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

As baptism is related to circumcision in the above passage and can be said to be the circumcision of the New Testament, I think that the following teaching is pertinent to our discussion.

Rom 4:9, Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10, How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11, And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12, And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Abraham's faith was reckoned as righteousness before he was circumcised; and circumcision sealed the deal.

He is also the father of those who are not circumcised (baptized) and yet have faith.

So, what is the value of circumcision (baptism), if your faith is counted as righteousness without it?

See above verses (Colossians 2:11-12)...

circumcision means that the body of the sins of the flesh is put away from you.

This is entire sanctification...

Something that would be desired by anyone who says with Paul what he says in Romans 7:24...

Rom 7:24, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

It is even good news to them...and something that they would want to take steps towards receiving.

If not, then I, personally, would doubt their salvation.

I think also, that scripture is clear (Matthew 5:29-30) that sanctification is important when it comes to justification.

 

[heartwashed]

I have to agree!

Do you still agree if you substitute cake with salvation and icing with baptism?

 

[Bruce_Leiter]

I would like here to make a case for baptism in Jesus' Name.

First I want to show that scripturally baptism has the power to save.

1Pe 3:20, Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

In verse 20, it makes it clear that the baptism being spoken of in verse 21 is water baptism.

Now, I know that a case can be made that we are saved by grace through faith; as though this excluded being saved through the grace of baptism. In this post I will not argue that a person can only be saved through baptism in Jesus' Name (except in part); but that baptism in Jesus' Name has the power to save a soul;

And that therefore, if you have any doubts about your salvation, being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins may be something that you might want to try.

For it is written,

Deu 4:29, But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

and,

Jer 29:13, And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

It should be clear that there is a conditional promise in holy scripture, that we can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost...

The condition being that we repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins:

Act 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39, For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

I would say, also, that if baptism does indeed save, that this salvation is in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth:

Act 4:10, Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11, This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12, Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Now, here I will make a case for the exclusivisity in salvation of being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins.

For the promise of Acts 2:38 is a conditional promise.

Act 2:39, For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

And it is given to as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Consider.

Rom 8:30, Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

If you are not among the called, then you were never predestinated unto salvation; and will not be justified.

Nevertheless, in Mark 16:16, it is those who believe not who will be damned; baptism isn't mentioned (as concerning condemnation for lack of it) except as a guarantee for salvation wherein it says, "whosoever believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

This indicates to me that, whereas in John 3:16, if you believe only, you "should" not perish, that if you believe and are baptized, you have an absolute promise of salvation...the word "shall" is an absolute one...whereas the word "should" is rather iffy.

So, I will not here preach that you must be baptized in Jesus' Name or else you will not be saved (I will allow the word of God to do that preaching for me, in verses already quoted); but I will say that if you want absolute assurance of salvation, the next step is to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins.

Then, you shall receive remission of sins (1 John 3:9) and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You have brought to us a lot to consider. I was baptized three times in Jesus' name and the Father's and the Holy Spirit's. So, would I be triple-assured or nine-times-assured (a serious question)? The first time was as an infant; the second, when I followed the twelve-year-old herd into church membership; and the third, when I was 79, after 63 years of trust and service resulting from Jesus' salvation to get me into heaven. None of the baptisms saved me. Baptism is the outward sign of faith, whereas the New Testament points to an inner baptism of the Holy Spirit, who gives us the Father's gift of the new birth through Jesus' resurrection. Another picture of baptism is the circumcision of our hearts described by Moses, Ezekiel, and Paul.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

1 Peter 3:20-21.

In no way makes baptism an act that is a symbol to others.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
I Peter 3:21‭-‬22 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/1pe.3.21-22.NKJV

 

[heartwashed]

In no way makes baptism an act that is a symbol to others.

There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
I Peter 3:21‭-‬22 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/1pe.3.21-22.NKJV

"antitype" means "symbol".

 

[heartwashed]

You have brought to us a lot to consider. I was baptized three times in Jesus' name and the Father's and the Holy Spirit's. So, would I be triple-assured or nine-times-assured (a serious question)? The first time was as an infant; the second, when I followed the twelve-year-old herd into church membership; and the third, when I was 79, after 63 years of trust and service resulting from Jesus' salvation to get me into heaven. None of the baptisms saved me. Baptism is the outward sign of faith, whereas the New Testament points to an inner baptism of the Holy Spirit, who gives us the Father's gift of the new birth through Jesus' resurrection. Another picture of baptism is the circumcision of our hearts described by Moses, Ezekiel, and Paul.

I will only say that if you were not saved, you were not saved.

I would encourage you to believe in and trust on the concept that if you repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, you will receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do you have these two things?

Can you apply 1 John 3:9 literally to your own life, and honestly say that you are born of God according to the definition given therein?

 

[mailmandan]

baptismal regeneration is sound doctrine (1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 2:38-39, Ezekiel 36:25-27, Romans 6:1-4).

It's false doctrine based on eisegesis and flawed hermeneutics.

 

[heartwashed]

Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost.

Being baptized in Jesus' name is to identify with Jesus in His death, burial, and resurrection. In baptism we effectively "take up our cross and follow Him". We are buried with Him in baptism and when we come out of the water, we are risen with Him to walk in newness of life (Colossians 2:12, Romans 6:4). This is a heart change and it = salvation.

Our trust is 100% in what Jesus did for us on the Cross; and the fact that we are one with Him in His crucifixion, burial, and resurrection.

If we don't become one with Him, we aren't saved.

You can believe He was crucified for you all you want...

If you are in Christ, then you have been crucified with Him (Galatians 2:20, Galatians 5:24).

 

[heartwashed]

It's false doctrine based on eisegesis and flawed hermeneutics.

Nope. Read the verses again.

Taking the scriptures at face value is eisegesis and flawed hermeneutics?

 

[heartwashed]

It's false doctrine based on eisegesis and flawed hermeneutics.

I encourage the reader to be a Berean (Acts 17:10-11) and to read the verses for themselves instead of taking @mailmandan 's word for it.

 

[mailmandan]

No, to say that it is not a work is to say that it is a point of contact for faith....like Paul's handkerchiefs...in fulfilling the condition of a conditional promise.

And there is in fact grace that is received in baptism.

Rom 6:1, What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2, God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3, Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4, Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Eze 36:25, Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26, A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27, And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Water baptism is a "work of righteousness." (Matthew 3:13-15; Titus 3:5)

In regards to Romans 6:3-4, as Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/romans-6.html

Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by faith, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.

In regards to Ezekiel 36:26, Christian baptism is not done by sprinkling, but immersion. Try again. You would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water.