Christianity in a box

[allforfun]

I've read through the many, many thread that have popped up this week about "conservative" Christian, "liberal" Christian and I have a few thoughts. Meander with me won't you?

I think God is bigger than the box we like to wrap him up in. I think for many people it is a security thing that all Christians act a certain way, look a certain way and nod their heads at the same time during a funny anecdote during a sermon.

To me, it is all so disheartening. I have been a Christian for quite a few years and have witnessed spiritual abuse in the church I see this is nothing short of abuse. Labeling each other because someone doesn't think exactly like we want them too, or they might come from a slightly different perspective so we insult them instead of sitting on them bench with them to see how they got to their point of view.

I don't know exactly where I am going with this, but I just see it as a sick sick sign of the times. Paul would have told us to put our petty differences aside and love each other. I buried a friend last week who in every way was different than I am, but she loved Jesus and that is what kept us together. Isn't there enough hate in the world that in the church we could love a little more and fight a little less?

 

[jamie26301]

I completely agree with you.

Take homosexuality for example. It has split the church. People who believe homosexuality is wrong won't go to churches that embraces it. I've actually had Christians said they would pray for me if I go to a church that teaches homosexxuality is not sin.

It doesn't matter if you agree with another Christian or not. A sign of love is that you will actually listen to another Christian's point of view. If you don't know all sides of the arguement, you hold your opinion in ignorance.

Just my two cents.

 

[Nalu]

Some people , such as myself, place Biblical Scripture above personal opinion.

The name given to us is Biblical Fundamentalist's.

The so called God in a box analogy is used when people want to insert feelings or practices that are not Biblically sound, such as homosexuality
or choose to omit teachings that are clearly outlined in scripture.

The Bible and how one chooses to apply it to their life is where this division occurs.

 

[KanMarMc]

Its very true but we have to remember that Religion and pursuing God don't always go hand and hand. Too many people thing Christianity is a religion when in reality it is a personal relationship with God. If we want Revival to come, we need to seek his face instead of being Sunday Christians.

 

[niceguyJ]

Take homosexuality for example. It has split the church. People who believe homosexuality is wrong won't go to churches that embraces it. I've actually had Christians said they would pray for me if I go to a church that teaches homosexxuality is not sin.

I am one of those people who is definitely not going to go to a church that embraces homosexuality, or anything else the Bible clearly speaks against.

1 Corinthians 6
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

Leviticus 18
22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

The book of James mentions this too, if I remember correctly.

I know this thread isn't supposed to be a debate about that, but it was brought up..and I'm going to support my belief with those verses.
Of course that can get the response "You're judging me!" ..To which I'd reply "NO, I'm not. I don't even have the power to. Only God truly has that power. I'm simply disagreeing with you, but the word of God is judging you."
I don't know how those verses can be explained away to make homosexuality right.

It doesn't matter if you agree with another Christian or not. A sign of love is that you will actually listen to another Christian's point of view. If you don't know all sides of the arguement, you hold your opinion in ignorance.

I have no problem listening to someone's point of view, but I have no problem disagreeing with it either if it goes against what I believe is the truth and things I see clearly in the word of God.
Does God support sin? NO. Then why should I?

Of course God is a God of love. Jesus loved people enough to die for them. He also didn't put up with any crap or corruption. The same Jesus who died for us was in the temple overturning tables because people were doing something wrong.
He loved sinners, but also set them straight. Example: The woman who was about to get stoned for being a prostitute. Jesus stepped in to save her life physically and spiritually. Did he say "It's okay, I accept what you're doing". Heck no! He said "Go and sin no more!"
This "lets all be PC and accept and tolerate everything, and while we're at it we'll make Christianity fit whatever WE think it should be. who cares what the Bible says" is a virus infecting the modern church as far as I'm concerned. Maybe Jesus would be turning over a few tables today if he were present in body.

Now as far as things go on an internet forum like this: I've been doing internet forums for 10-15 years on and off. They're all alike in ways. Everyone is going to have their convictions, beliefs, opinions, etc. etc. We're not going to all agree. That's not realistic. Debates are normal. It's possible to disagree and debate in a civil manner though.
People get offended so easily though if someone disagrees with them. It's not a matter of "if" someone is going to disagree with you, it's a matter of "when". That's just part of it. People are much more bold on forums too typically. They say things to others they might not be so bold to say face to face. So things are intensified. I've learned to just kind of let it roll off my back. My day isn't going to be ruined if someone disagrees with me.
I'm not going to apologize for my convinctions, beliefs, etc. whether they offend you or not. If you're apologizing for something you say, then it isn't much of a conviction to begin with is it?
I don't expect you to apologize for yours if they offend me. It's just part of it. Be civil, realize there are going to be disagreements.

That's my $1.50. I couldn't keep it down to two cents cause this a really interesting topic.

 

[niceguyJ]

Some people , such as myself, place Biblical Scripture above personal opinion.

The name given to us is Biblical Fundamentalist's.

The so called God in a box analogy is used when people want to insert feelings or practices that are not Biblically sound, such as homosexuality
or choose to omit teachings that are clearly outlined in scripture.

The Bible and how one chooses to apply it to their life is where this division occurs.

Well said.

 

[allforfun]

Typically, the point was missed.

It is an interesting topic. It is sad that hardens peoples hearts against each other. I know I come away reading stuff, even in this own thread hardened.

 

[zeroturbulence]

Typically, the point was missed.

It is an interesting topic. It is sad that hardens peoples hearts against each other. I know I come away reading stuff, even in this own thread hardened.

Do u mean how some christians automatically put a label on someone for something they do, or who they are, instead of first finding out what that persons reasons are for doing that or being that way?

 

[Liamson]

Everything has a label. Everything fits into a box. Everything must be compartmentalized. Everything must be coped with. This is our way. We are all sitting in our pews with our mental Label-makers neatly categorizing each other, "Dumb, Blonde, Old, Short, Fat, Smoker, Jerk, etc." Everyone is something to us and no one is nothing. We may be curious and we might want to help but, inside of our hearts we have a charity bubble, which doesn't let anything get too personal or too close to home.

That is how we rationalize what our relationship is with the world around us. We only have five senses and out of these 5 senses we are expected to grasp Objectively the fundamental meaning of life in precisely the same value structure and order of the people around us to a degree necessary for social interaction. Now as crazy as this sounds, there has never been a single idea in the history of man that has had an equal effect on everyone who heard it. Why should we expect the very concept of our belief structure to correlate exactly as it was implied by God?

The truth is that we are flawed, selfish, spiteful, indulgent, malicious, irreverent, unholy and unworthy to be called Christians. We hold these truths in our hands and yet infer as we see fit, the knowledge as it suits us. We count the cost of the applicable verses and relegate the rest to sacred meaninglessness, as we have always done. We glean where it benefits us, struggle to hide shamefully the unsatisfactory parts of our lives that do not measure up and we are the first to take sides when we feel that we are right.

In all of this I am guilty. Allforfun, I ask you to forgive us, for we do not know what we are doing.

 

[allforfun]

That is how we rationalize what our relationship is with the world around us. We only have five senses and out of these 5 senses we are expected to grasp Objectively the fundamental meaning of life in precisely the same value structure and order of the people around us to a degree necessary for social interaction. Now as crazy as this sounds, there has never been a single idea in the history of man that has had an equal effect on everyone who heard it. Why should we expect the very concept of our belief structure to correlate exactly as it was implied by God?


In all of this I am guilty. Allforfun, I ask you to forgive us, for we do not know what we are doing.

Liamson, you nailed it on the head with everything you said, but especially this part. We expect everything to fit in our five senses, but I believe God is so much more than that. And the idea that every one is going to read something and infer the same believe, the same notion, and have the same walk with Christ because of it? Is insanity. Thank you for getting it.

I am one of those people who is definitely not going to go to a church that embraces homosexuality, or anything else the Bible clearly speaks against.


I have no problem listening to someone's point of view, but I have no problem disagreeing with it either if it goes against what I believe is the truth and things I see clearly in the word of God.
Does God support sin? NO. Then why should I?

Of course God is a God of love. Jesus loved people enough to die for them. He also didn't put up with any crap or corruption. The same Jesus who died for us was in the temple overturning tables because people were doing something wrong.
He loved sinners, but also set them straight. Example: The woman who was about to get stoned for being a prostitute. Jesus stepped in to save her life physically and spiritually. Did he say "It's okay, I accept what you're doing". Heck no! He said "Go and sin no more!"
This "lets all be PC and accept and tolerate everything, and while we're at it we'll make Christianity fit whatever WE think it should be. who cares what the Bible says" is a virus infecting the modern church as far as I'm concerned. Maybe Jesus would be turning over a few tables today if he were present in body.

But where did I specifically say I go against Biblical verses? You assumed that. You say you are willing to listen to someone else's point of view, but is it to correct them with what you think is right or to get a better understanding of what brought them to that decision? There is a big difference in the way you listen to them. Yes, Jesus told the woman to "Go and sin no more". He also told her accusers to take a look at themselves too. People miss that because they want the judgement first. Jesus turned the tables over for the Pharisee's, not for the people in the church. For the people in the church, He healed, loved and washed their feet. I see very little humbleness of anyone (especially here) of people who would be willing to get on the floor and wash feet. I do see people saying, "You read it wrong, you are doing it wrong and my opinion is right". Life is not about opinion either and frankly, you assumed that by starting this thread, I dismiss the Bible and I am all PC. I am the most non PC person ever. I am blunt, crude and awkward most of the time. However, I know that many people have walked all roads of life before coming to Christ. Most of the roads aren't pretty, including mine. My friends are former porn stars, crack addicts and prostitutes but I can bet that Jesus loves them. I also am willing to bet a pretty penny most wouldn't want to sit down and listen to what they have to say and how they got to point A to point B. While salvation is talked about, the people who it is offered to are to be walked around at 100 yards lest they are contagious.

I don't want you to apologize for your convictions. However, opinions and judgements mean very little to me and I think most people just want to make sure everyone has theirs are heard. And the world does. But they hear very little love that Jesus gave us and that is what makes me sad.

 

[niceguyJ]

allforfun,
Just to clarify, I never said YOU dismiss the Bible. A lot of my post was directed towards the person I quoted up there, who is speaking of churches that are clearly going against the word of God.
One of the main reasons I mentioned Jesus overturning the tables is just because it shows how angry he gets when people sin and try to corrupt the things that are God's. I do believe that applies to Christians and the church. However, I am certainly not disagreeing that Jesus showed love. He is the ultimate example of love. I think love means accepting people, but not sin.

*
To add to that (and this is just speaking in general)...
My stance is that by telling people "sure come to our church, we accept the homosexual lifestyle and we're okay with you living it" that church is NOT loving people, but rather leading them astray. That's just one example though. Loving someone isn't about telling them it's okay to do things that are clearly spoken against by God. I'm also not saying living a homosexual lifestyle is any more of a sin than someone who is living in fornication and adultery with the opposite sex. At the root of both is lust. We've all had a lustful thought or struggled with it greatly I'm sure, but there is a difference in struggling with it and trying to do right and acting on it and claiming it's okay.
A lot of people just don't want to submit to God or anyone. They want to live their life THEIR way and that's that. God will not and is not going to conform to us though, it should be the other way around. Same with the church. The church shouldn't bend to accomodate people. We are to submit to God and be molded into what he wants us to be.

I feel it's our responsibility to help point people in the right direction. So yes, if someone is saying something here that clearly goes against God's word I am going to speak up if I see it. It's the right thing to do. Regardless of how anyone arrives at their conviction, there is still absolute truth and lies, wrong and right, good vs. evil.

Also, I never claimed to be better than anyone else, for the record. The only good in any of us is Jesus.

 

[niceguyJ]

My friends are former porn stars, crack addicts and prostitutes but I can bet that Jesus loves them. I also am willing to bet a pretty penny most wouldn't want to sit down and listen to what they have to say and how they got to point A to point B. While salvation is talked about, the people who it is offered to are to be walked around at 100 yards lest they are contagious.

Of course Jesus loves them. None of us are better than them. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

You're right about some people, not wanting to be around those people. Not all people are like that though, thankfully. A good number really love to hear how God has changed someone's life and hear the powerful testimonies these people have to share. I mean we all have a testimony of some sorts, but some are more interesting than others.

 

[Jullianna]

Liamson, you nailed it on the head with everything you said, but especially this part. We expect everything to fit in our five senses, but I believe God is so much more than that. And the idea that every one is going to read something and infer the same believe, the same notion, and have the same walk with Christ because of it? Is insanity. Thank you for getting it.



But where did I specifically say I go against Biblical verses? You assumed that. You say you are willing to listen to someone else's point of view, but is it to correct them with what you think is right or to get a better understanding of what brought them to that decision? There is a big difference in the way you listen to them. Yes, Jesus told the woman to "Go and sin no more". He also told her accusers to take a look at themselves too. People miss that because they want the judgement first. Jesus turned the tables over for the Pharisee's, not for the people in the church. For the people in the church, He healed, loved and washed their feet. I see very little humbleness of anyone (especially here) of people who would be willing to get on the floor and wash feet. I do see people saying, "You read it wrong, you are doing it wrong and my opinion is right". Life is not about opinion either and frankly, you assumed that by starting this thread, I dismiss the Bible and I am all PC. I am the most non PC person ever. I am blunt, crude and awkward most of the time. However, I know that many people have walked all roads of life before coming to Christ. Most of the roads aren't pretty, including mine. My friends are former porn stars, crack addicts and prostitutes but I can bet that Jesus loves them. I also am willing to bet a pretty penny most wouldn't want to sit down and listen to what they have to say and how they got to point A to point B. While salvation is talked about, the people who it is offered to are to be walked around at 100 yards lest they are contagious.

I don't want you to apologize for your convictions. However, opinions and judgements mean very little to me and I think most people just want to make sure everyone has theirs are heard. And the world does. But they hear very little love that Jesus gave us and that is what makes me sad.

allforfun, if they won't listen, they are missing the miraculous and robbing their lives of the delivering power of faith. These are the testimonies that touch my heart, bring tears to my eyes and make my spirit bubble up and shout HALLELUJAH like nothing else. These are the testimonies that lead many to Christ who would probably have otherwise thought themselves unworthy (we're ALL unworthy). The Pauls and Mary Magdalenes of the world who are restored to God know exactly what He has lifted them out of and see clearly the difference God has made in their lives. It often seems that it is more difficult for those whom God has sheltered a bit more to understand just how dirty their own robes were before Jesus exchanged them.

Maybe the key is for us to attempt to be more lovingly real with one another. Rather than looking for offenses, we should all put our christian big girl/boy pants on and look for Christ in one another. Maybe there are so many splinters and planks flying around that none of see very well...

 

[jamie26301]

Of course God is a God of love. Jesus loved people enough to die for them. He also didn't put up with any crap or corruption. The same Jesus who died for us was in the temple overturning tables because people were doing something wrong.
He loved sinners, but also set them straight. Example: The woman who was about to get stoned for being a prostitute. Jesus stepped in to save her life physically and spiritually. Did he say "It's okay, I accept what you're doing". Heck no! He said "Go and sin no more!"
This "lets all be PC and accept and tolerate everything, and while we're at it we'll make Christianity fit whatever WE think it should be. who cares what the Bible says" is a virus infecting the modern church as far as I'm concerned. Maybe Jesus would be turning over a few tables today if he were present in body.

I know, I know, the Bible is inerrant. That's the convictions of many Christians but not all historians. Diarmaid Macculloch is a widely' acclaimed historian. In his New York Times Notable Book, Christianity, he talks about how the patriarchs are rarely mentioned by 'later prophets' like Jeremiah, Hosea or the first prophet Isaiah. Meaning, the partriarchs probably came AFTER these prophets, rather than 1800 BC as the Bible places them. Palestine can not have began earlier than 1200 BC, and Genesis makes reference to Palestine. "...the chronology of the Book of Genesis simply does not add up as a historical narritive when it is placed in a reliably historical wider context."

Among historians it is debateable weather the Bible is inerrant or not. But if it isn't...then you have no grounds on which to say homosexuality is wrong. People in homosexual relationships don't hurt anybody. There's no reason why they can't get married other than religious reasons, and to push that agenda is to violate seperation of church and state.

I have more argument, will post later.

 

[jamie26301]

But where did I specifically say I go against Biblical verses? You assumed that. You say you are willing to listen to someone else's point of view, but is it to correct them with what you think is right or to get a better understanding of what brought them to that decision? There is a big difference in the way you listen to them. Yes, Jesus told the woman to "Go and sin no more". He also told her accusers to take a look at themselves too. People miss that because they want the judgement first. Jesus turned the tables over for the Pharisee's, not for the people in the church. For the people in the church, He healed, loved and washed their feet. I see very little humbleness of anyone (especially here) of people who would be willing to get on the floor and wash feet. I do see people saying, "You read it wrong, you are doing it wrong and my opinion is right". Life is not about opinion either and frankly, you assumed that by starting this thread, I dismiss the Bible and I am all PC. I am the most non PC person ever. I am blunt, crude and awkward most of the time. However, I know that many people have walked all roads of life before coming to Christ. Most of the roads aren't pretty, including mine. My friends are former porn stars, crack addicts and prostitutes but I can bet that Jesus loves them. I also am willing to bet a pretty penny most wouldn't want to sit down and listen to what they have to say and how they got to point A to point B. While salvation is talked about, the people who it is offered to are to be walked around at 100 yards lest they are contagious.

Allforfun, I think it's wonderful that you've befriended sinners, because someone who doesn't openly condemn what they do, but love them first, then speak the truth in love once they have the attention of the sinner, that is what it truely means to witness.

I have something to tell you that our Lutheran pastor told us at our church. There will be three suprises when we get to heaven:

1) People we thought were going to be there, wont
2) People we thought were the worst sinners (maybe homosexuals?) will be there
3)That we made it there!
(Read Matthew 25:31-46)

 

[preciouslove]

Please contact me through my
E-mail address([email protected])
Remember the distance or color does not tend
Matter but love matters a lot in
Life.
My e-mail address ([email protected])
precious.

 

[allforfun]

Allforfun, I think it's wonderful that you've befriended sinners, because someone who doesn't openly condemn what they do, but love them first, then speak the truth in love once they have the attention of the sinner, that is what it truely means to witness.

I have something to tell you that our Lutheran pastor told us at our church. There will be three suprises when we get to heaven:

1) People we thought were going to be there, wont
2) People we thought were the worst sinners (maybe homosexuals?) will be there
3)That we made it there!
(Read Matthew 25:31-46)

I befriend the sinners because I am the sinner. I'm not lowering myself to their level, I am on their level. To think Jesus was too high to befriend us is to read a different Bible than the one I read.

I agree with your pastor. I can't wait to talk with Jeffery Dalmer myself because he professed Christ as his Savior in an interview and I want to talk to him. And hug him. Seriously.

 

[jamie26301]

I feel it's our responsibility to help point people in the right direction. So yes, if someone is saying something here that clearly goes against God's word I am going to speak up if I see it. It's the right thing to do. Regardless of how anyone arrives at their conviction, there is still absolute truth and lies, wrong and right, good vs. evil.

Yes but you have to be real carefull that you're not telling these homosexuals they are going to hell. To say who goes to hell is Jesus's decision, and His alone! See Matthew 7:1 In this verse, Jesus is talking about critism.

Also Jonthan thought that his love for David was better than the love of women. (2 Sam 1:26) Some have used this to support homosexuality.

You know, the Bible condons slavery (Colossian 4:1, 1 Tim 6:1-2) But times have changed, and we now condemn that. Likewise, maybe homosexuality was condemned, but time has changed, now we accept it.

 

[jamie26301]

I befriend the sinners because I am the sinner. I'm not lowering myself to their level, I am on their level. To think Jesus was too high to befriend us is to read a different Bible than the one I read.

Well said

 

[jamie26301]

I am one of those people who is definitely not going to go to a church that embraces homosexuality, or anything else the Bible clearly speaks against.

I can understand your conviction. Really I can. The way I see it is, there are hundreds of doctrines in the Bible. Why would you split with a church that has so many doctrines you agree with, over one doctrine? Why would you go to a church less your fancy, doesn't fit your theology as well, because the church you went to accepts homosexuality? You're not only missing out on what you could be learning otherwise, but it strikes me as a form of pride.