Hebrews 6

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,281
6,585
113
#41
And, to think I didn't kick over this can of worms....... :)

It does seem you forgot our discussion some years ago when we both thougjht that OSAS should have been defined as Once SANCTIFIED Always Sanctified..........

I still believe that simply because there is far too many teachings from both the Apostle Paul and Jesus which show the newly saved and yet to be sanctified are always in danger of being led astray.....

I also still smile when I hear the OSAS teachers deny Calvins teachings that Free Will is not Biblical... They themselves believe when a person is saved, their free will no longer exists...........

Funny, the more things change, the more they stay the same
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,287
482
83
#42
My interpretation is to believe what it says ,and not allow people I explain why it's not valid or for christians it doesn't need to be erased so we can feel comfortable sinning it needs to be accepted so we will repent
What do you understand these verses to mean?

[1Co 2:12-13 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

This doesn't need to be interpreted it's just a true fact


For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:26‭-‬27 KJV

So then hypergrace has to say " that's only for a Hebrew , it doesn't apply" or hypergrace has no answer to the plain statement that doesn't need to be interpreted it is the right interpretation itself
No, it does actually need to be further interpreted relative to other verses/ "spiritual things". For example, to gain understanding of the "sins" of 10:26 , Heb 10:29 is also necessary to complete 26- 27. In 10:29 (see below), we are informed that the sin of 10:26-27, is not just any sin, but in trodding underfoot Christ's offering - meaning to reckon Christ for naught and His blood as an unholy thing. So, in this simple example (of your choice), it is clear that 10:26 - 27 cannot/do not stand on their own but need to be seen in light of other verses to form a correct interpretation. Otherwise, with 10:26 - 27 understood as standalone, you would be left with the impression that any sin whatsoever would take us from the efficacy of Christ, and thereby, making and keeping our salvation as our work.

[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I don't follow your hypergrace comment.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,287
482
83
#43
I also still smile when I hear the OSAS teachers deny Calvins teachings that Free Will is not Biblical... They themselves believe when a person is saved, their free will no longer exists...........
Isn't it that according to Calvin, Free Will is not biblical, hence Election formed the predicate for what he believed? Both Free Will and Election cannot coexist nor both be correct - it must be one or the other, right?
Or maybe, I'm just not following your point.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,281
6,585
113
#44
Isn't it that according to Calvin, Free Will is not biblical, hence Election formed the predicate for what he believed? Both Free Will and Election cannot coexist nor both be correct - it must be one or the other, right?
Or maybe, I'm just not following your point.
According to Calvins TULIP theology, free will does not exist.........

IF free will does exist, then Calvins TULIP theology is wrong, and OSAS is flawed since it negates free will after salvation. Fairly simple stuff really..........

IF free will is OF God, freely given to man, then God would not take it away.....
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,281
6,585
113
#45
hence Election formed the predicate for what he believed?
Calvin taught predestination........from the very beginning, Genesis Chapter 1, verse 1, certain peoples were chosen by God to be saved, and the rest were excluded from salvation. (nutshell)

Everything one does was "predetermined" by God from the very beginning.....what you say, think, do, eat, wear, every choice you BELIEVE you are making, you are not, it was made for you by God from the beginning.......
(again, nutshell)

just do a search for Calvins TULIP theology
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,351
722
113
#46
Ok. Looks like it's time for the Bi-Annual list of 101 Reasons proving Eternal Security. The "you can lose your salvation, and become unborn again crowd need to refute each and every one of these!

1. The believer has everlasting or eternal life.


John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”


John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”


2. The believer is born of God.


John 1:12-13: “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”


3. Christ will raise every believer up at the last day.


John 6:44-47: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”


4. The believer has already passed from death unto life.


John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”


5. The believer is not the object of God’s wrath.


John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”


6. Believer are God’s sheep.


John 10:2-4: “But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.”


7. The believer will not listen to nor follow a stranger, but will flee from him.


John 10:5: “And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” (The stranger here is Satan and his false teachers.)


8. The believer is known of God.


John 10:14: “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”


9. The believer listens to the voice of the shepherd.


John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”


10. The believer is in Christ’s hand and cannot be plucked out.


John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”


11. The believer is in the Father’s hand and cannot be plucked out.


John 10:29: “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”


12. The shepherd is charged with the responsibility of keeping the sheep.


John 10:11-14: “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”


13. The believer is not condemned.


John 3:18: “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”


14. The believer shall never thirst.


John 4:14: “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”


15. The believer will keep Christ’s commandments.


John 14:23: “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”


16. The believer is secure because of Christ’s prayer.


John 17:9-12: “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee, Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”


17. The believer shall never die.



John 11:26: “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”


18. The believer to be kept from the evil.


John 17:15: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”


Jesus prays that the believer may be kept from the Devil. Was this prayer answered?


19. The believer to be with Christ in glory.


John 17:24: “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.”


20. The believer shall never hunger.


John 6:35: “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.”


21. The believer will in no wise be cast out (Not under any circumstance).


John 6:37: “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”


22. Christ will not lose a single believer.


John 6:39: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”


23. Christ will raise up the believer at the last day.


John 6:38-40: “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”


24. Whosoever eats the bread of life shall never die.


John 6:51: “I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”


25. Because the Holy Spirit abides in the believer forever.


John 14:16-17: “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”


26. Because it is the Father’s will that Christ should lose nothing.


John 6:39: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”


27. Because one cannot be unborn.


John 3:5: “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”


28. The believer will follow Christ.


John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.” Following Christ, can one be lost? Have we any right to add to God’s Word by inserting if” to the passage?


29. The believers continue with God.


1 John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”


30. Because it is the believer’s faith that overcomes the world.


1 John 5:4: “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”
The phrase that is common in nearly all of your points, is the phrase 'who believes'.

The people that believe in Jesus are saved (simplified gospel).

Should one lose that belief in Jesus, then logically, that person is no longer saved.

I don't think it is possible to debate this point.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,351
722
113
#47
Calvin taught predestination........from the very beginning, Genesis Chapter 1, verse 1, certain peoples were chosen by God to be saved, and the rest were excluded from salvation. (nutshell)

Everything one does was "predetermined" by God from the very beginning.....what you say, think, do, eat, wear, every choice you BELIEVE you are making, you are not, it was made for you by God from the beginning.......
(again, nutshell)

just do a search for Calvins TULIP theology
I don't know that someone can claim a determinism, that overrides every decision we make. There is a level of determinism in our lives that we have no say about. no choice. For example, you don't choose your parents or where you are born. Our personality, education, is all predetermined.

There does seem to be some level of choice, some freewill at play. Being undecided about something is a good example of a freewill, a choice. Weighing up the choices.

As far as salvation is concerned, the level of freewill or determinism, is a far more complex matter.

As far as I am concerned, whether predestination or freewill is involved. Or some combination of freewill and determinism. Is not what the gospel is about. We have been given the gospel of Jesus Christ and the outline of the Christian life. Calvinism is not a listed requirement for salvation. So I treat the subject of predestination accordingly.
 

Karlon

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2023
1,951
817
113
#48
Once saved always saved is a false doctrine
you don't believe in once saved always saved then? are you a Christian? if not once saved always saved & you are a Christian, when will you be saved & how will you know it? read 1st John 5:13!
 

Karlon

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2023
1,951
817
113
#50
How does believing in the trinity Save you?
Do the Demons believe in the trinity?
Are they Saved?
you are switching subject a bit. the subject i commented on was "once saved, always saved". proclaiming Jesus Christ as your personal savior & believing in all 3 which is God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit, (the trinity), saves you.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,070
13,083
113
58
#51
In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive.

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, adoption etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regard to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and you can't always tell them apart at first.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,600
13,017
113
#52
Should one lose that belief in Jesus, then logically, that person is no longer saved.
That's not how it works. Those who are genuinely saved have been (a) born again, (b) born of God, (c) born of the Spirit, and (d) born from above. That is a supernatural spiritual birth called "regeneration". And just as no baby can be "unborn" and returned to its mother's womb, no genuine Christian can "be unborn" and return to a previous state. But there is a lot more to this which need not be brought up. And those who have been born again do not "lose that belief in Jesus" as their Lord and Savior.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
3,944
1,569
113
#53
I was raised Southern Baptist and was taught once saved always saved. I understand that nothing can take you from God's hand, however can you leave of your own volition? Hebrews 6:4-6 posted below seem to say that it is possible to leave the faith and that once you do it's not possible to return. Am I reading this wrong?


“4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame" (Heb 6:4-6, NASB)

Shared using AndBible: Bible Study. (https://andbible.github.io)

This passage demonstrates the following, according to the book of Hebrews:
  • Christ does not offer himself repeatedly,
  • This would cause him to suffer repeatedly
  • He has appeared once for all
  • Christ died once to bear sins
  • He will appear a second time but not to deal with sin
Which people?

The ones "once enlightened" ( Hebrews 6:4-5) of course they are saved.

The warning is to Jewish believers who have moved on from dead works and be enlightened (born again) that are trying to repeat the sacrifice of Jesus like under the old system,

(verse 6:6, as if that were even possible) ..........as though Jesus needed to be re-sacrificed, whereby putting the one sufficient, all time, perfect sacrifice to open shame.

That is what is impossible to be born again more than once ( renew them again unto repentance) do you see it ?

But those who have returned to the law, have not lost their salvation but they shall certainly face a chastisement from God.

He is telling them the sacrifice of Jesus is perfect ... and by going back to the old system they have trodden under foot the Son of God.

What is impossible is to be brought back to repentance (be born again ... a one time event) once again, to do so would be stating the one time sacrifice of the cross was insufficient and by doing so they were putting Jesus to open shame.

This verse actually affirms that if we should fall away from grace (walking in the Spirit) we are still saved because Christ gives a new birth once and it is everlasting and does not need to be repeated and actually cannot be repeated so move on to maturity in Christ rather than trying to remain as babes in the new birth!!!
 
May 10, 2023
169
71
28
#54
Indeed it is through faith When we hear it in truth like this

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:11‭-‬14 KJV
Amen. And we are to have faith like a child, trusting God and His word. I trust God that His grace is sufficient like he says.
 
May 10, 2023
169
71
28
#55
Should one lose that belief in Jesus, then logically, that person is no longer saved.

I don't think it is possible to debate this point.
Jesus says He will never lose anyone whom the Father has given to Him. Go ahead and debate Jesus about this point.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,992
8,694
113
#56
Jesus says He will never lose anyone whom the Father has given to Him. Go ahead and debate Jesus about this point.
Can’t give a full reply now, but I think many who don’t believe Jesus can keep them saved, also believe that those of us that fully trust that Jesus WILL keep us saved, are somehow ALL Calvinists!!

Lol!

I bet the majority are not.
 

Underwhosewings

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2023
1,318
671
113
Australia
#57
I was raised Southern Baptist and was taught once saved always saved. I understand that nothing can take you from God's hand, however can you leave of your own volition? Hebrews 6:4-6 posted below seem to say that it is possible to leave the faith and that once you do it's not possible to return. Am I reading this wrong?


“4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame" (Heb 6:4-6, NASB)

Shared using AndBible: Bible Study. (https://andbible.github.io)
Hebrews 6:1-6 KJV
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of *repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.*
[3] And this will we do, if God permit.
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If you were, “once enlightened”…..
And you “fall away,” you cannot get
born again/saved, AGAIN.
You have already laid the foundation principles of the doctrine of Christ.

We are still living in sinful bodies and capable of falling away.

Revelation 2:4 KJV
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Revelation 2:5 KJV
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent,…

We must repent and come back to where we left off.

His blood was shed for the remission of sins, but then we have our daily life in this world where some unintentional defilement will come, and we need the “blood of sprinkling”
as Jesus said…
”ye are clean,” (you only need partial cleansing, the feet, the walk.)
John 13:9-10 KJV
Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
[10] Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean…

Hebrews 12:22-24 KJV
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
[23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Matthew 13:22-23 KJV
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
[23] But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it ;
which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,287
482
83
#58
The phrase that is common in nearly all of your points, is the phrase 'who believes'.

The people that believe in Jesus are saved (simplified gospel).

Should one lose that belief in Jesus, then logically, that person is no longer saved.

I don't think it is possible to debate this point.
Your point is very much debatable. Faith doesn't bring salvation - salvation brings true faith.
There are two types of faith: one of the human intellect, which is superficial, transient, and
can and will be lost (see Luk 8:13 below); and one by the Holy Spirit which is a byproduct of salvation
and remains within someone throughout their life (see Gal 5:22 below). Therefore, those who lose faith in Jesus were
not saved but those who were saved will never lose faith.

[Luk 8:13 KJV] 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
3,944
1,569
113
#59
Your point is very much debatable. Faith doesn't bring salvation - salvation brings true faith.
There are two types of faith: one of the human intellect, which is superficial, transient, and
can and will be lost (see Luk 8:13 below); and one by the Holy Spirit which is a byproduct of salvation
and remains within someone throughout their life (see Gal 5:22 below). Therefore, those who lose faith in Jesus were
not saved but those who were saved will never lose faith.

[Luk 8:13 KJV] 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Faith is being persuaded something is true.
 

Karlon

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2023
1,951
817
113
#60
The phrase that is common in nearly all of your points, is the phrase 'who believes'.

The people that believe in Jesus are saved (simplified gospel).

Should one lose that belief in Jesus, then logically, that person is no longer saved.

I don't think it is possible to debate this point.
wow!!! are you just trying to initiate a discussion for fun? there has never been a case & there will never be a case of someone who was born again & lost salvation. if someone believes in that then what were you saved from in the 1st place? read Romans 8:9, 1st John 5:10 & 13, John 3;33, 14:26 7 16:3 how many times can you believe in Jesus & lose your belief, 7 times, 129 times......? you don't think it's possible to debate this point? holy heavens!!!! ANYTHING IS DEBATABLE also, someone who believes you can believe in Jesus & lose the belief never believed in Jesus in the 1st place. you might have "felt" it, hoped it, had proper intentions, but certainly did not believe.