Southern Baptist Losing Thousands of Members

[p_rehbein]

North Carolina megachurch Elevation Church leaves SBC …

News about North Carolina Mega Church Leaves Southern Baptist

This follows the Saddleback Mega Church in California cutting ties with the SBA. There have been other Congregations cut ties with the SBA over the years. One large Congregation located in Muscle Shoals, Ala cut ties years ago, and claim to be the "True Baptist" Church. I know of a couple more smaller Congregations in the North Alabama area that have cut ties as well......

Will this have a "domino" effect? I do not know, but I do not believe these are the last to cut ties with the SBA. This Church, being in North Carolina, the Home State of the SBA and its University is especially damaging in my opinion...

The main issue is the Expulsion of Congregations/Churches that support/allow women Pastors by the SBA.

(whowouldathunkit?)

 

[ZNP]

He gives some reasons why many Christians are leaving the SBC.

Easy Believism and Self help ministry.

Prosperity and heresy.

 

[ResidentAlien]

North Carolina megachurch Elevation Church leaves SBC …

News about North Carolina Mega Church Leaves Southern Baptist

This follows the Saddleback Mega Church in California cutting ties with the SBA. There have been other Congregations cut ties with the SBA over the years. One large Congregation located in Muscle Shoals, Ala cut ties years ago, and claim to be the "True Baptist" Church. I know of a couple more smaller Congregations in the North Alabama area that have cut ties as well......

Will this have a "domino" effect? I do not know, but I do not believe these are the last to cut ties with the SBA. This Church, being in North Carolina, the Home State of the SBA and its University is especially damaging in my opinion...

The main issue is the Expulsion of Congregations/Churches that support/allow women Pastors by the SBA.

(whowouldathunkit?)

Saddleback didn't "cut ties" with the SBC; they were tossed out. Rick Warren pleaded not to be ousted but to no avail. I'm wondering what took Elevation Church so long. They've been Southern Baptist in name only for a long time. I wonder how many people even knew they were in the SBC. I think Elevation saw the writing on the wall and knew it was only a matter of time, so they took a preemptive strike.

 

[JohnDB]

North Carolina megachurch Elevation Church leaves SBC …

News about North Carolina Mega Church Leaves Southern Baptist

This follows the Saddleback Mega Church in California cutting ties with the SBA. There have been other Congregations cut ties with the SBA over the years. One large Congregation located in Muscle Shoals, Ala cut ties years ago, and claim to be the "True Baptist" Church. I know of a couple more smaller Congregations in the North Alabama area that have cut ties as well......

Will this have a "domino" effect? I do not know, but I do not believe these are the last to cut ties with the SBA. This Church, being in North Carolina, the Home State of the SBA and its University is especially damaging in my opinion...

The main issue is the Expulsion of Congregations/Churches that support/allow women Pastors by the SBA.

(whowouldathunkit?)

Well,
It's not exactly as you described. Saddleback was kicked out....they didn't leave willingly.
Let's get that out and in the open first of all.

Then it wasn't just the "female pastor" thing....it was a laundry list of issues that this particular church has....such as the refusal to recognize the ENTIRE Bible as the authoritative word of God. (Especially prophetic scriptures)
Also the Saddleback church was not opposed to homosexuality. Even as small group leaders.
Then there was the contracts for tithing....not that tithing is a bad thing but the literal contracts for membership are not in line with scriptures....which again Saddleback doesn't like.

And the SBC is just that....a convention and not an association. You join because you agree....it's not an association that you join to change to your ideals from the inside.

There are Baptist Associations in existence....most of them are rather fluid and come and go in popularity depending upon their leadership du jour.....

The SBC Chairperson's authority begins and ends with his use of a gavel to call meetings to order....hard for people to really understand this....especially when several past chairs have used their title to publish and promote their books. Everything is voted upon by the convention and the delegates themselves who do the actual voting are receiving orders on how to vote from their respective congregations. These delegates change constantly and consistently. Every committee has a constantly changing membership as well.

Again....this is what a convention is all about. And because of this...things have been very consistent over the decades.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This follows the Saddleback Mega Church in California cutting ties with the SBA.

The reverse was the case. Saddleback was cut off because of all their compromises. That does not automatically translate into the Convention losing thousands of members.

 

[ZNP]

The reverse was the case. Saddleback was cut off because of all their compromises. That does not automatically translate into the Convention losing thousands of members.

If you are losing apostate members then that is a positive outcome.

 

[JohnDB]

Saddleback didn't "cut ties" with the SBC; they were tossed out. Rick Warren pleaded not to be ousted but to no avail. I'm wondering what took Elevation Church so long. They've been Southern Baptist in name only for a long time. I wonder how many people even knew they were in the SBC. I think Elevation saw the writing on the wall and knew it was only a matter of time, so they took a preemptive strike.

Membership has privileges and access to resources that non members are not allowed.
Cutting them off was the ONLY choice they had especially since it's obvious that they were not in agreement with the SBC in every major doctrine. Membership in the SBC is not an automatic pass into heaven nor do they claim it to be one. Only that they agree with the other members of the convention.

Also there was this thing about support. Member Churches of the SBC usually support the Cooperative Program and what once was called Annie Armstrong ministries and Lottie Moon ministries....the American Mission program and Foreign Missions programs which are now under one heading of IMB or International Missions Board.

Saddleback flat out didn't stroke one check ever for any Missions program whatsoever. Even calling attention to it as a point of pride.
Where financial support is not a requirement for membership in the SBC....it's kinda rude or disingenuous to not support these things or even have a solid reason why you don't other than solely depriving them of funds.
(Which was their publicly stated reason....which is what the scriptures (that Saddleback doesn't like) describes as a sin.

Yeah....Rick Warren can cry and whine all he wants....it wasn't exactly a surprise vote. This was years in the making and many discussions, letters, phone calls, emails, smoke signals and flag waving didn't make any headway in getting Saddleback Church to make a decision on their own as to either change their attitude or to voluntarily leave until such time as they actually agree with the other convention members.

So the decision was removed from Saddleback hands and taken up by the full convention.

 

[ZNP]

Membership has privileges and access to resources that non members are not allowed.
Cutting them off was the ONLY choice they had especially since it's obvious that they were not in agreement with the SBC in every major doctrine. Membership in the SBC is not an automatic pass into heaven nor do they claim it to be one. Only that they agree with the other members of the convention.

Also there was this thing about support. Member Churches of the SBC usually support the Cooperative Program and what once was called Annie Armstrong ministries and Lottie Moon ministries....the American Mission program and Foreign Missions programs which are now under one heading of IMB or International Missions Board.

Saddleback flat out didn't stroke one check ever for any Missions program whatsoever. Even calling attention to it as a point of pride.
Where financial support is not a requirement for membership in the SBC....it's kinda rude or disingenuous to not support these things or even have a solid reason why you don't other than solely depriving them of funds.
(Which was their publicly stated reason....which is what the scriptures (that Saddleback doesn't like) describes as a sin.

Yeah....Rick Warren can cry and whine all he wants....it wasn't exactly a surprise vote. This was years in the making and many discussions, letters, phone calls, emails, smoke signals and flag waving didn't make any headway in getting Saddleback Church to make a decision on their own as to either change their attitude or to voluntarily leave until such time as they actually agree with the other convention members.

So the decision was removed from Saddleback hands and taken up by the full convention.

What fellowship does light have with darkness? If these groups do not accept that the word of God is the ultimate authority and receive every word in the Bible as the word of God then you can't have fellowship with those that hold to Jesus being Lord and the incarnated word of God.

I am glad they are cleaning house.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If you are losing apostate members then that is a positive outcome.

It is usually the leadership that is apostate. At the same time a denomination -- the SBC -- is a man-made concept. And the SBC began to go downhill a long time ago. Thus the rise of independent Baptist churches.

 

[ZNP]

It is usually the leadership that is apostate. At the same time a denomination -- the SBC -- is a man-made concept. And the SBC began to go downhill a long time ago. Thus the rise of independent Baptist churches.

Yes, but it seems like the churches that are being forced out are clearly apostate

 

[JohnDB]

It is usually the leadership that is apostate. At the same time a denomination -- the SBC -- is a man-made concept. And the SBC began to go downhill a long time ago. Thus the rise of independent Baptist churches.

Once again....the only "leadership" the SBC has is God. There is no leadership. That's the point of a convention.

The "leadership" is only used to call meetings to order....that's the end of his entire function....he can't even make the call to end a meeting. His "power" ends as he called the meeting to order. That beginning and end of "power" exists on every committee as well...meaning there is no leadership.

The SBC is NOT an association....(Which is what you are trying to claim they are) A convention functions nothing like an association. Where you would think that there is nothing but chaos there is harmony.

You have to see it to really understand it. But the SBC is the slowest changing organization out there....the Catholics are faster than we are....they seem like outright fickle waffles by comparison.

We still admire Herschel Hobbs....and he has been dead for decades. (Wrote a non-binding booklet entitled "Baptist Faith and Message") which has never been adopted as authoritative or descriptive by the SBC but many/most all members REALLY like it.

 

[Aussie52]

How much does the Calvinist element in the SBC effect the loss of people?

 

[JohnDB]

How much does the Calvinist element in the SBC effect the loss of people?

Calvinists have tried many times to control the SBC. They can't.

The Calvinists certainly have become the workhorses of the group....doing lots of various tasks. And they are allowed membership. But the SBC is organizationally not going to allow ANYONE'S theology to override the convention. It can't happen without the complete destruction of the CONVENTION. (We are not an association)

Like I've said before and people somehow refuse to understand or can't grasp the concept. The SBC is a convention and not an association. There is no leadership except for God. The "leader" has one extremely limited function. He calls the meetings to order at the time he was told to by the entire convention. That's it....that's the complete end of his authority and he has the most authority of anyone in the convention.

 

[Zandar]

Contracts for tithes. I don't see how they keep any members.

 

[Zandar]

Calvinists have tried many times to control the SBC. They can't.

The Calvinists certainly have become the workhorses of the group....doing lots of various tasks. And they are allowed membership. But the SBC is organizationally not going to allow ANYONE'S theology to override the convention. It can't happen without the complete destruction of the CONVENTION. (We are not an association)

Like I've said before and people somehow refuse to understand or can't grasp the concept. The SBC is a convention and not an association. There is no leadership except for God. The "leader" has one extremely limited function. He calls the meetings to order at the time he was told to by the entire convention. That's it....that's the complete end of his authority and he has the most authority of anyone in the convention.

I guess it isn't their destiny.

 

[NightTwister]

I guess it isn't their destiny.

But with a little luck they might succeed. ;-)

 

[JohnDB]

But with a little luck they might succeed. ;-)

I doubt it....
The SBC is a CONVENTION....

Meaning that you would first have to get all the subscribing convention members to agree to dissolve the convention.

Which means that then there is no convention.

 

[NightTwister]

That's ok, my wife doesn't laugh at my jokes either. In any case, I'm not a Baptist of any kind.

 

[JohnDB]

That's ok, my wife doesn't laugh at my jokes either. In any case, I'm not a Baptist of any kind.

I get the joke now....
My wife says I'm a little slow...and have bad "dad" jokes.

But it's frustrating when people just don't understand what the SBC is. It's unlike any other denomination out there. No rules except for being undefined. Because the second you can define a Baptist you aren't describing a Baptist.

Makes sense to me as I've been one my whole life. But for every other person outside looking in.....well it ain't so easy.

 

[Zandar]

lol, I was thinking, nobody is laughing at the Calvinist destiny jokes. This thread is dead serious.