How do you reconcile the first Commandment with the trinity?

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bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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I dont agree with JW's on a ton of stuff,

John 1:3, “All came to be through Him, and without Him not even one came to be that came to be.”

Hebrews 1:2,, “has in these last days spoken to us by the Son, whom He has appointed heir of all, through whom also He made the ages,”

Hebrews 11:3, “By belief, we understand that the ages were prepared by the word of Elohim, so that what is seen was not made of what is visible.”

I think YHWH created "through Him" is more accurate.

Also about Heb 1:10, its a quote from Psalms 102:25-27 and it's the Father in context יהוה, and I think that confirms the "through" thing in the above verses

Hebrews 1:10-12,10 And, “You, Master, did found the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 “They shall perish, but You remain. And they shall all grow old like a garment, 12 and like a mantle You shall fold them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail.”

Psalms 102:25-27,25 “You (יהוה) did found the earth of old, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26 “They shall perish, but You remain; And all of them grow old like a garment; You change them like a coat, And they are changed. 27 “But You are the same, And Your years have no end.”

Psalms 102:21-28,21 To declare the Name of יהוה in Tsiyon, And His praise in Yerushalayim, 22 When peoples gather together, And reigns, to serve יהוה. 23 He has humbled my strength in the way; He has shortened my days. 24 I said, “O my Ěl, Do not take me away in the midst of my days; Your years are throughout all generations. 25 “You did found the earth of old, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26 “They shall perish, but You remain; And all of them grow old like a garment; You change them like a coat, And they are changed. 27 “But You are the same, And Your years have no end. 28 “The sons of Your servants continue, And their seed is established before You.”

Hopefully we both gained from this, I did.
There is sort of a tension between the word "by" and the word "through. I just now found the following article on the two words here: https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/meaning-of-john-13/ Personally, I think the word "by" is more correct. I base this on Revelation 3:14.

"The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, say this." The Greek word for "beginning" in the verse is "arche." We get our English word "architect" from that word. So what is the function of an architect? The Architect will plan and design or facilitate the making of something. Here is what Strong's Lexicon states on the Greek word "arch/beginning."
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g746/kjv/tr/0-1/ Also, Thayer, who was a Unitarian agrees.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Diakonos

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2019
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there is sufficient evidence to show that the supreme
being is capable of wearing more than one hat
I understand the analogy, but God does not take turns wearing different "hats" or temporary personas. The three Trinitarian Members exist eternally and simultaneously. They are three distinct sets of consciousness with different functions and positional submission.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
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There is sort of a tension between the word "by" and the word "through. I just now found the following article on the two words here: https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/meaning-of-john-13/ Personally, I think the word "by" is more correct. I base this on Revelation 3:14.

"The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, say this." The Greek word for "beginning" in the verse is "arche." We get our English word "architect" from that word. So what is the function of an architect? The Architect will plan and design or facilitate the making of something. Here is what Strong's Lexicon states on the Greek word "arch/beginning."
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g746/kjv/tr/0-1/ Also, Thayer, who was a Unitarian agrees.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
So my Greek is not s good as my Hebrew, so I looked it up in the following resources, none of them say "by" they all say "through" the last one is like 3 pages of text som Im not going to post it here and its very complex.

Thayer Definition,
Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments,
Dodson Greek-English Lexicon,
Abbott-Smith's Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament and

The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament Illustrated From The Papyri And Other Non-Literary Sources by J. H. Moulton and G. Milligan.


Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
G1223 διά dia (d̮iy-a') prep.
δι- di- (d̮iy-) [shortened prefix]
1. through.
2. throughout.
3. on account of (that thing).
4. (of time) after (i.e. through the fullness of or completion of).
5. (as a prefix) thorough, thoroughly.
{in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional}
[a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act]
KJV: after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) ... fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through(-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general importance

Thayer Definition:
Compare: G575, G1537
διά
dia
1) through

Dodson Greek-English Lexicon
G1223
διά
PREPosition
through, on account of

Abbott-Smith's Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament
διά (before a vowel δι᾽, exc. Rom 8:10, 2Co 5:7, and in pr. names; Tdf., Pr., 94), prep. c. gen., acc, as in cl.;

1. c. gen., through;
(i) of Place, after verbs of motion or action: Mat 2:12; Mat 12:43, Mar 2:23, Luk 4:30, Joh 4:4, 2Co 11:33, al.; σώζεσθαι (διασ-) δ. πυρός, ὕδατος, 1Co 3:15, 1Pe 3:20; βλέπειν δ. ἐσόπτρου, 1Co 13:12; metaph., of a state or condition: Rom 14:20, 2Co 2:4; 2Co 5:7; 2Co 5:10; δ. γράμμος, ἀκροβυστίας (Lft., Notes, 263, 279), Rev 2:27; Rev 4:11; δι᾽ ὑπομονῆς, Rom 8:25.

(ii) Of Time;
(a) during which: Mat 26:61, Mar 14:58, Luk 5:5; δ. παντὸς τοῦ ζῆν, Heb 2:15; δ. παντόν (διαπαντός in Mar 5:5, Luk 24:53), always, continually, Mat 18:10, Act 2:25 (LXX) Act 10:2; Act 24:16, Rom 11:10 (LXX), 2Th 3:16, Heb 9:6; Heb 13:15;
(b) within which: Act 1:3; δ. νυκτός, Act 5:19; Act 16:9; Act 17:10; Act 23:31;
(c) after which (Field, Notes, 20; Abbott, JG, 255 f.): Mar 2:1, Act 24:17, Gal 2:1.

(iii) Of the Means or Instrument;
(1) of the efficient cause (regarded also as the instrument): of God, Rom 11:30, 1Co 1:9, Gal 4:7, Heb 2:10; Heb 7:21; of Christ, Rom 1:8; Rom 5:1; Rom 5:17, 1Co 15:21, 1Pe 4:11, al.; δ. τ. ὑμῶν δεήσ-εως, Rom 1:12, 2Co 1:4, Gal 4:23, al.;
(2) of the agent, instrument or means;

3. In composition,
(1) through, as in διαβαίνω;
(2) of separation, asunder, as in διασπάω;
(3) of distribution, abroad, as in διαγγέλλω;
(4) of transition, as διαλλάσσω;
(5) of "perfective" action (M, Pr., 112 f., 115 f.), as διαφύγω, διακαθαρίζω.
Δία, acc of Ζεύς, q.v.
 

Franc254

Active member
Oct 7, 2022
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What if I were to tell you that Proverbs 8 specifically vs 22 is not about Jesus Christ? Read Proverbs 8 (all of it) starting at vs1. Then read Proverbs 9 starting at vs1.

The subject is "wisdom," not Jesus Christ. You will notice that wisdom is described as a "her" a "she." In other words God used wisdom in all that He did.

Also, wisdom is an attribute of God and has always been with Him. Read 1 Corinthians 1:24 where the gospel of Jesus Christ reveals Gods wisdom.

In Him,
bluto

Proverbs 8 proves that there is one single creator God and Jesus is surely not created....the concept is that Wisdom was also a creation of God
 

Franc254

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Oct 7, 2022
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Reposting a previous post since it was inadvertently used.

Since people for the most part have not recognized that the Psalms are mainly Son, Father and Holy Spirit speaking and praying and praising One Another, it is a whole aspect of Scripture that is largely unexplored and untaught. It is also one of the most important aspects of Scripture since it reveals so much about Father, Son and Holy Spirit and Their interactions. It also reveals Them and Their relation to One Another as the One YAH and Creator and Eternal with Their Unified purpose in creation and our Salvation.


Well if we read it that way, there is Going to be a huge conflict in other verses of the Bible


Like Hebrews the very first chapter and verse
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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Ooh no Jesus was not created....he is the creator
Your exactly right. And wisdom is NOT a creation of God. Wisdom is an attribute of God. There was NEVER a time where God did not have wisdom.

I discussed this with Speak Truth101 in one of my previous post.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,109
534
113
Since people for the most part have not recognized that the Psalms are mainly Son, Father and Holy Spirit speaking and praying and praising One Another, it is a whole aspect of Scripture that is largely unexplored and untaught. It is also one of the most important aspects of Scripture since it reveals so much about Father, Son and Holy Spirit and Their interactions. It also reveals Them and Their relation to One Another as the One YAH and Creator and Eternal with Their Unified purpose in creation and our Salvation.
Can you please give some examples in the Psalms where the Son, Father and Holy Spirit are speaking and praying and praising one another. Thank You!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Franc254

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Oct 7, 2022
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Your exactly right. And wisdom is NOT a creation of God. Wisdom is an attribute of God. There was NEVER a time where God did not have wisdom.

I discussed this with Speak Truth101 in one of my previous post.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

So where then do you get the title His the son?
 

Franc254

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Oct 7, 2022
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For the same reasons that a triangle cannot be a square. It is either one or the other.
The God of the Bible has revealed Himself as 3 persons. So he cannot be 1 person.

Friend you cannot make that argument.... because God has revealed himself to be omnipotent meaning he can do anything
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
Can you please give some examples in the Psalms where the Son, Father and Holy Spirit are speaking and praying and praising one another. Thank You!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Psalm is the Holy Spirit speaking about the Son.
He also describes the wicked in the last part of the Psalm.

(The comments in parens say Who is speaking)

Psalm 1

(Spirit about Son)

1:1 Blessed is the Man
Who doesn’t walk in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stand in the way of sinners,
nor sit in the seat of scoffers;
1:2 but His delight is in YHVH's law.
On His Torah He meditates day and night.
1:3 He will be like a Tree planted by the streams of water,
that brings forth Its fruit in Its season,
Whose leaf also does not wither.
Whatever He does shall prosper.

(Spirit about the wicked)

1:4 The wicked are not so,
but are like the chaff which the wind drives away.
1:5 Therefore the wicked shall not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the congregation of the Righteous.
1:6 For YHVH knows the way of the Righteous,
but the way of the wicked shall perish.
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
Can you please give some examples in the Psalms where the Son, Father and Holy Spirit are speaking and praying and praising one another. Thank You!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Psalm 2 has each of them speaking in various verses with the Father being quoted.

Psalm 2

(Spirit about the wicked)

2:1 Why do the nations rage,
and the peoples plot a vain thing?
2:2 The kings of the earth take a stand,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against YHVH, and against
His Anointed, (Mashiyach, Messiah) saying,
2:3 “Let’s break Their bonds apart,
and cast Their cords from us.”

(Spirit about Father concerning the wicked)

2:4 He who sits in the heavens will laugh.
'Adonay will have them in derision.
2:5 Then He will speak to them in His anger,
and terrify them in His wrath:

(Father about Son)

2:6 “Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion.”

(Son quotes Father talking to Him)

2:7 I will tell of the decree.
YHVH said to Me, “You are My Son.
Today I have become Your Father.
2:8 Ask of Me, and I will give
the nations for Your inheritance,
the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession.
2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron.
You shall dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

(Spirit to people about Father and Son)

2:10 Now therefore be wise, you kings.
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
2:11 Serve YHVH with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
2:12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
and you perish in the way,
for His wrath will soon be kindled.
Blessed are all those who take refuge in Him.
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
Can you please give some examples in the Psalms where the Son, Father and Holy Spirit are speaking and praying and praising one another. Thank You!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Psalm 20 which was posted previously in this thread is the Holy Spirit speaking to and about Father and Son as indicated in the comments preceding each section.

Psalm 20

For the Chief Musician. A Psalm by David.

(Spirit to Son about Father)

20:1 May YHVH answer You in the day of trouble.
May the Name of the 'Elohiym of Jacob
set You up on high,
20:2 send You help from the sanctuary,
grant You support from Zion,
20:3 remember all Your offerings,
and accept Your burnt sacrifice.
Selah.
20:4 May He grant You Your heart’s desire,
and fulfill all Your plans.
20:5 We will triumph in Your Salvation. (Yĕshuw`ah)
In the Name of our 'Elohiym, we will set up our banners.
May YHVH grant all Your requests.

(Spirit about Father and Son)

20:6 Now I know that YHVH saves
His Anointed (Mashiyach, Messiah).
He will answer Him from His holy heaven,
with the saving strength of His right hand.

(Spirit praying in union with believers)

20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses,
but we trust the Name of YHVH our 'Elohiym.
20:8 they are bowed down and fallen,
but we rise up, and stand upright.

(Spirit to Father about Son saving us)

20:9 Save, YHVH!
Let the King answer us when we call!
 

Franc254

Active member
Oct 7, 2022
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Psalm 20 which was posted previously in this thread is the Holy Spirit speaking to and about Father and Son as indicated in the comments preceding each section.

Psalm 20

For the Chief Musician. A Psalm by David.

(Spirit to Son about Father)

20:1 May YHVH answer You in the day of trouble.
May the Name of the 'Elohiym of Jacob
set You up on high,
20:2 send You help from the sanctuary,
grant You support from Zion,
20:3 remember all Your offerings,
and accept Your burnt sacrifice.
Selah.
20:4 May He grant You Your heart’s desire,
and fulfill all Your plans.
20:5 We will triumph in Your Salvation. (Yĕshuw`ah)
In the Name of our 'Elohiym, we will set up our banners.
May YHVH grant all Your requests.

(Spirit about Father and Son)

20:6 Now I know that YHVH saves
His Anointed (Mashiyach, Messiah).
He will answer Him from His holy heaven,
with the saving strength of His right hand.

(Spirit praying in union with believers)

20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses,
but we trust the Name of YHVH our 'Elohiym.
20:8 they are bowed down and fallen,
but we rise up, and stand upright.

(Spirit to Father about Son saving us)

20:9 Save, YHVH!
Let the King answer us when we call!


Well I have told you that this would bring conflict with other chapters of the Bible
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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For me = water, vapor, ice. Same substance, different forms.
sounds nice but it's close to the heresy of modaliam.

He exists as the Father and the Son and the Spirit simultaneously - all of one uncreated & eternal substance, that of God, not mutually exclusive in person or form.
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
Can you please give some examples in the Psalms where the Son, Father and Holy Spirit are speaking and praying and praising one another. Thank You!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Psalm 21 is the Holy Spirit speaking to the Father about the Son and to the Son and then prays in plural "We" because He is in union with believers who He indwells. This Psalm reveals so much. It tells us the Son's heart's desire was for Life and the Father granted it to Him after He gave His life to save us as the law required of Him. Psalm 119 shows us that the Son's greatest desire was to live so He could continue to praise His Father and declare His truth, righteousness and justice.

Psalm 21

For the Chief Musician. A Psalm by David.

(Spirit to Father about Son)

21:1 The King rejoices in Your strength, YHVH!
How greatly He rejoices in Your Salvation! (Yĕshuw`ah)
21:2 You have given Him His heart’s desire,
and have not withheld the request of His lips.
Selah.
21:3 For You meet Him with the blessings of goodness.
You set a crown of fine gold on His head.
21:4 He asked life of You, You gave it to Him,
even length of days forever and ever.

21:5 His Glory is Great in Your Salvation. (Yĕshuw`ah)
You lay Honor and Majesty on Him.
21:6 For You make Him Most Blessed forever.
You make Him glad with joy in Your presence.
21:7 For the King trusts in YHVH.
Through the mercy of the Most High ('Elyown),
He shall not be moved.

(Spirit to Son)

21:8 Your Hand will find out all of Your enemies.
Your Right Hand will find out those who hate You.
21:9 You will make them as a fiery furnace
in the time of Your anger.
YHVH will swallow them up in His wrath.
The fire shall devour them.
21:10 You will destroy their descendants from the earth,
their posterity from among the children of men.
21:11 For they intended evil against You.
They plotted evil against You which cannot succeed.
21:12 For You will make them turn their back,
when You aim drawn bows at their face.

(Spirit to Father praying in union with believers. we)

21:13 Be exalted, YHVH, in Your strength,
so we will sing and praise Your power.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,843
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Why do you think it is heresy?
modalism is a heresy that describes God as - well as webera.home put it - wearing different hats at different times. it would have either Christ not being God while incarnate, or being God while incarnate with no God in heaven.

essentially it denies the Father and Son can exist simultaneously and simultaneously be God, if both co-exist, one is stripped of deity, thus it denies the deity of Christ (or even His existence after ascending!)... so, heresy.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,843
13,558
113
Why do you think it is heresy?
i edited my response after first writing it, thinking, OK maybe not necessarily modalism, i guess you could have some water in three phases at the same time?

this bit's liquid, there's some ice, up there is steam? lol