Why… we are not… and will not… go through the Tribulation.

[Artios1]

I know it’s interesting, captivating, and adventurous to sift through the prophecy and attempt to put dates on events ….and even try to parallel things going on today with the tribulation prophecy.

But for those who are trying to match current events with tribulation prophecy … it’s not going to work…. And while I understand the logic that dictates your line of thinking …..(As those prophetic events that you pursue would have been the next events in biblical succession to have taken place) … but you have not taken into consideration this current dispensation (better translated administration) of grace, which houses the mystery of the one body ….that, in essence, nullifies the rationale of sequence.

You will not find any prophecy in the OT or in the gospels regarding the mystery …. there is no mention of this (nor could there be) as it did not exist in the senses world until it was revealed to Paul by revelation of/from Jesus Christ… as noted in these scripture → {Rom 16:25&26} - {Eph 3:2-4} - {Col 1:25-27 & Col 2:2b &3}



God tells us why He kept it a mystery (secret) in 1Co 2:6-8.
6.Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7.But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8.Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The angels and prophets of old also diligently searched, desiring to see what was in the gap between the grave and the glory….. but to no avail 1Pe 1:10-12.
10. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11.Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.



What is the mystery

What we know now…was not available to be known prior to Paul receiving the revelation, as it (the mystery) did not exist except in the mind of God.

But We know that with God inserting the mystery in this administration of Grace it did not alter or abolish prophecy of coming events it merely detained or delayed it.


The prophesied events of the Lord’s day will take place ….but not until the culmination of this administration (dispensation) of Grace, the culmination being that of “the gathering together unto Him”, which I will get into in a subsequent thread but I want to go through a few things that delineate the grace administration with the Day of the Lord [[that term or “the Lords Day” is used to represent all the prophetic events throughout the book of Revelation not just the specific day that the Lord returns as King of Kings.]]

This administration of Grace embodies the mystery of the one body (the one new man) and everything implicated within the mystery → all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3. In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Those treasures in v3 include… salvation by grace, the new birth, incorruptible seed, God in Christ in you, redemption, sanctification, righteousness, & justification…. Essentially, everything that was made unto us through Jesus Christ. Established by Gods acceptance (on our behalf) of what Jesus Christ accomplished…. All of those grace filled blessings will terminate at the termination of the grace administration with the gathering together …..And THEN does the day of the Lord technically begin.



Here are some of the notable differences between Grace and The Day of the Lord.

Starting with GRACE

Having grace (which has been present throughout the Old Testament is different than being in the administration (dispensation) of grace. (Eph 3:2) Which encapsulates the administration of the mystery of the one body. Which, as I stated, culminates with the return of Christ in the air for the body of Christ …ONLY. (No one prior to the day of Pentecost and no unbelievers….just those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior.)

How much grace is there in Revelation ???

It is used twice …. once in the opening salutation Rev 1:4 and once in the closing verse Rev 22:21.

Compare that to the 72 times grace is referred to in the seven Church epistles of Romans through Thessalonians…..plus 10x in Acts ….. and 34x in Timothy through Jude … all of which pertain to the administration of grace…… that comes to 116 X

But all things being equal…. I would deduct the 27x from all of the epistles where grace is used as an opening and closing salutation. That would leave us with 89 total times grace is referred to …. but if we deduct the salutations from Revelation ….there would be ~ zero ~

For reference ...grace is used....37 x throughout the entire OT …. and 4x in gospels


continued

 

[Artios1]

Continued

In Christ ….. In Christ Jesus ….. In Jesus Christ ….. In Jesus ….. In Him ….. In the Lord Jesus .….. and a few other variations which are used in reference to “US” …. the born-again Christian….. members of the Body of Christ, the one new man…. and are used over 170 X throughout the epistles and Acts.

You will not find any of those lexica in the Gospels…. and to no surprise …. neither will you find them in Revelation …..they are totally proprietary to the believers of the administration of Grace. And as I mentioned in another recent post ….there will technically be no “Christians” (per se) in the tribulation times of the Lords day. The term Christian which derived from the above recognitions (in christ … etc) will not be applicable to the gentiles and Jews which will be the two categories of people in Revelation…..just as it was in the Old Testament and gospels prior to Pentecost.

_____________________________________


Here is another marker that is interesting.

The history of the temple in the OT (Old Testament) was the place of worship which among other things was designed with the holy of holies where the ark of the covenant was kept. The temple was physical place where worship took place, where God dwelt …………… until Pentecost.

The physical structure is still there…. but according to the God breathed scriptures …God now dwells within us… we are the holy naos. We meaning … each and every member of the body of Christ.

You may have heard people refer to their physical body being the temple using reference to one of the scripture listed below ….that is not accurate.

Of the scripture listed below depicting the body as the temple they are all plural and they reference either a group of... or the entire body of Christ believers of which dwells the holy naos.

Naos → 1Co 3:16, 1Co 3:17, 1Co 6:19, 2Co 6:16, Eph 2:21, Act 17:24.

And we are referenced in the scripture as Gods dwelling place up until the “gathering together unto Him” (aka rapture). When you get to Revelation the temple is once again referenced as a physical structure because the body of Christ (aka Christians) are no longer present on earth.

As an aside: The individual person throughout the epistles is referred to as the tabernacle not the temple as seen in the following scripture.

2Co 5:1, 2Co 5:4, (skēnos) 2Pe 1:13, 2Pe 1:14 (skēnōma) Heb 8:2, Heb 9:11, (skēnē)




I’ll add a few more

*Church of God is reference 9 times in Acts and the epistles .... zero X in OT & Gospels… zero X in Revelation....we belong to the Church of God

______________________

*One Body is referenced 14 X in the Church epistles only… zero X in Revelation.

The one body will be gone at the gathering together ………….in Revelation it will only be Jews and Gentiles.

_________________________________________

*The mystery in the administration of grace is “the one new man” Jews and gentiles being fellow heirs and of the same body this mystery is referred in the church epistles 14 times ….

The mystery that is referred to in Revelation is ……..Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

________________________________________

The only way you can possibly make the argument that we are living in the tribulation times of Revelation …. Is if you believe that the administration of grace which houses the mystery …Has terminated or will terminate.

 

[Evmur]

Continued

In Christ ….. In Christ Jesus ….. In Jesus Christ ….. In Jesus ….. In Him ….. In the Lord Jesus .….. and a few other variations which are used in reference to “US” …. the born-again Christian….. members of the Body of Christ, the one new man…. and are used over 170 X throughout the epistles and Acts.

You will not find any of those lexica in the Gospels…. and to no surprise …. neither will you find them in Revelation …..they are totally proprietary to the believers of the administration of Grace. And as I mentioned in another recent post ….there will technically be no “Christians” (per se) in the tribulation times of the Lords day. The term Christian which derived from the above recognitions (in christ … etc) will not be applicable to the gentiles and Jews which will be the two categories of people in Revelation…..just as it was in the Old Testament and gospels prior to Pentecost.

_____________________________________


Here is another marker that is interesting.

The history of the temple in the OT (Old Testament) was the place of worship which among other things was designed with the holy of holies where the ark of the covenant was kept. The temple was physical place where worship took place, where God dwelt …………… until Pentecost.

The physical structure is still there…. but according to the God breathed scriptures …God now dwells within us… we are the holy naos. We meaning … each and every member of the body of Christ.

You may have heard people refer to their physical body being the temple using reference to one of the scripture listed below ….that is not accurate.

Of the scripture listed below depicting the body as the temple they are all plural and they reference either a group of... or the entire body of Christ believers of which dwells the holy naos.

Naos → 1Co 3:16, 1Co 3:17, 1Co 6:19, 2Co 6:16, Eph 2:21, Act 17:24.

And we are referenced in the scripture as Gods dwelling place up until the “gathering together unto Him” (aka rapture). When you get to Revelation the temple is once again referenced as a physical structure because the body of Christ (aka Christians) are no longer present on earth.

As an aside: The individual person throughout the epistles is referred to as the tabernacle not the temple as seen in the following scripture.

2Co 5:1, 2Co 5:4, (skēnos) 2Pe 1:13, 2Pe 1:14 (skēnōma) Heb 8:2, Heb 9:11, (skēnē)




I’ll add a few more

*Church of God is reference 9 times in Acts and the epistles .... zero X in OT & Gospels… zero X in Revelation....we belong to the Church of God

______________________

*One Body is referenced 14 X in the Church epistles only… zero X in Revelation.

The one body will be gone at the gathering together ………….in Revelation it will only be Jews and Gentiles.

_________________________________________

*The mystery in the administration of grace is “the one new man” Jews and gentiles being fellow heirs and of the same body this mystery is referred in the church epistles 14 times ….

The mystery that is referred to in Revelation is ……..Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

________________________________________

The only way you can possibly make the argument that we are living in the tribulation times of Revelation …. Is if you believe that the administration of grace which houses the mystery …Has terminated or will terminate.

*
This is quite an interesting argument, I think you fail to show how this grace keeps us [will keep us] from tribulation culminating in the great tribulation.

It will certainly keep us from the wrath of God. Paul says clearly that we are saved from the wrath of God. But Paul tells us "through great tribulation must we enter the kingdom" Tribulation therefore is not God's wrath.

 

[John146]

*
This is quite an interesting argument, I think you fail to show how this grace keeps us [will keep us] from tribulation culminating in the great tribulation.

It will certainly keep us from the wrath of God. Paul says clearly that we are saved from the wrath of God. But Paul tells us "through great tribulation must we enter the kingdom" Tribulation therefore is not God's wrath.

Can you post that verse in Paul's writings concerning great tribulation? Thanks!

 

[John146]

Those that believe the remnant of the body of Christ will suffer through the great tribulation...are you stockpiling food? You will not be able to buy it without the mark.

 

[ewq1938]

If you are a saved Christian, and alive near the start of the GT, you WILL be on the Earth for the GT. You will either take part in the apostasia and be on the other side of things, and not a target of satan's tribulation or you will not take part in the apostasia and you will be the target of satan's tribulation. The rapture is post trib and Rev and the gospels speak a lot about the persecution and tribulation the Church will suffer during the tribulation. This has been the fate of much of the church throughout history and no exception is made for the end times church.

Here is the only passage about The Rapture that actually uses the Greek word that means a rapture, Harpazo:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Here we see the second coming mentioned 3 times, then the resurrection and then the rapture. This proves the rapture is connected to the second coming. All that needs to be proven is when the second coming happens to know when the rapture happens.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The second coming happens AFTER the GT is over, so the rapture happens post-Trib. Circumventing these two passages is to ignore the scriptural evidence of WHEN the rapture is going to happen.

 

[Komentaja]

Who you trying to convince, yourself or us? The way pre-tribbers go on about this it seems they are just shook and scared and are busy convincing themselves their comfortable life will never change.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Amen. Pretribbers try way too hard. The scriptures are very clear and consistent. My conclusion: Pretribbers are too busy trying to justify their unscriptural doctrine to notice what the Bible actually teaches.

 

[CS1]

Here is one thing that I think must be understood.

• The Church is not subject to the Wrath of God.
• This pretrib or no trib will not make it without the Holy Spirit in the Rapture or through the Great Tribulation.

No matter where you stand, one thing from today's standing the church collectively is crying " Temple of the Lord," yet they are working as Ichabod. Many will fall in the Great Tribulation or miss the Rapture because They have a form of godliness but deny the Power thereof.


Many love to debate Theological topics but have hate, perversion, and unforgiveness in their heart. They are silent as children are being given over to the modern-day Baal in LGBTQ worship. And say nothing because it is unpopular to do so. If you won't stand for God when it is unpopular how are you going to do so in the Great Tribulation? LOL You won't. Many can't even hold the line with their own family members who live in sin and give in because they are a Son or Daughter.

Argue there is no Rapture says we are going through the Trib, ok But if you think God is mocked and winks are your foolishness and you by your own will can suffer unto death, you do not know the word of God.

Jesus said, "You will receive power After the Holy Ghost has come upon you and you will be my (martyr) witnesses."
Acts 1:8

We can't even STAND against evil and be salt in a dying world. Jesus said the gate of Hell will not Prevail.

Those who hold to the tribulation saying bring it on but hiding, those who say Bring on the Rapture are not working until he comes.

Both are Hypocrites. None are ready for either event. Wake UP!

if you have not shared Jesus with someone who is not on a website, you are the problem.

 

[iamsoandso]

Those that believe the remnant of the body of Christ will suffer through the great tribulation...are you stockpiling food? You will not be able to buy it without the mark.

It's the interesting part of threads about pre/post/mid tribulation ect. in that many view these events as future events(your wording in your post is future tense),,, Any way though if for instance the heat domes,C-19 ect.(current events taking place on earth) are fulfillment's of the great heat in Rev. 16 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/16.htm or the river drying up(worldwide) https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/9.htm ,,,,,,,the point is though if you notice in the Scriptures I gave is that these things happen to those who do worship the image and already have taken that mark so it's not future tense but instead it's past and current but they haven't yet figured out what it is and as in both chapters "they repented not",,,,

 

[ewq1938]

Here is one thing that I think must be understood.

• The Church is not subject to the Wrath of God.

Also important is

• The Church IS subject to the Wrath of satan.

It should also be noted that NO ONE, not one time has ever said the Church is subject to the wrath of God.

Many will fall in the Great Tribulation or miss the Rapture

No one can miss the rapture. If they are faithful, saved Christians and are alive and remain as Paul wrote, they will be raptured.

if you have not shared Jesus with someone who is not on a website, you are the problem.

Wrong. The body of Christ is not only made of just a mouth. Some are ears, some hands etc. Not all are Evangelists in fact most are not and are not supposed to be.

 

[John146]

It's the interesting part of threads about pre/post/mid tribulation ect. in that many view these events as future events(your wording in your post is future tense),,, Any way though if for instance the heat domes,C-19 ect.(current events taking place on earth) are fulfillment's of the great heat in Rev. 16 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/16.htm or the river drying up(worldwide) https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/9.htm ,,,,,,,the point is though if you notice in the Scriptures I gave is that these things happen to those who do worship the image and already have taken that mark so it's not future tense but instead it's past and current but they haven't yet figured out what it is and as in both chapters "they repented not",,,,

Taking the mark is a literal occurrence. It's a physical mark on the forehead or hand. Nothing in the passage would tell us not to take it literal.

 

[Mem]

It should also be noted that NO ONE, not one time has ever said the Church is subject to the wrath of God.

It is this mischaracterization of the post position that renders it the strawman for the greater ease of toppling.

 

[John146]

Wrong. The body of Christ is not only made of just a mouth. Some are ears, some hands etc. Not all are Evangelists in fact most are not and are not supposed to be.

Haven't we all been given the ministry of reconciliation?

 

[iamsoandso]

Taking the mark is a literal occurrence. It's a physical mark on the forehead or hand. Nothing in the passage would tell us not to take it literal.

I agree it's definitely literal,, now ponder how you buy and sell and find the image of the beast that was,was not yet is that ascended out of the pit at the command of those dwelling on the earth...

 

[Mem]

I agree it's definitely literal,, now ponder how you buy and sell and find the image of the beast that was,was not yet is that ascended out of the pit at the command of those dwelling on the earth...

Is it something like this?

 

[Mem]

or this?
Elon Musk's brain implant company Nuerolink announces FDA approval of in-human clinical study

 

[Edify]

Here is one thing that I think must be understood.

• The Church is not subject to the Wrath of God.
• This pretrib or no trib will not make it without the Holy Spirit in the Rapture or through the Great Tribulation.

No matter where you stand, one thing from today's standing the church collectively is crying " Temple of the Lord," yet they are working as Ichabod. Many will fall in the Great Tribulation or miss the Rapture because They have a form of godliness but deny the Power thereof.


Many love to debate Theological topics but have hate, perversion, and unforgiveness in their heart. They are silent as children are being given over to the modern-day Baal in LGBTQ worship. And say nothing because it is unpopular to do so. If you won't stand for God when it is unpopular how are you going to do so in the Great Tribulation? LOL You won't. Many can't even hold the line with their own family members who live in sin and give in because they are a Son or Daughter.

Argue there is no Rapture says we are going through the Trib, ok But if you think God is mocked and winks are your foolishness and you by your own will can suffer unto death, you do not know the word of God.

Jesus said, "You will receive power After the Holy Ghost has come upon you and you will be my (martyr) witnesses."
Acts 1:8

We can't even STAND against evil and be salt in a dying world. Jesus said the gate of Hell will not Prevail.

Those who hold to the tribulation saying bring it on but hiding, those who say Bring on the Rapture are not working until he comes.

Both are Hypocrites. None are ready for either event. Wake UP!

if you have not shared Jesus with someone who is not on a website, you are the problem.

It seems to me you're saying there's no Holy Spirit involvement during the tribulation. Am I correct?

 

[montana123]

If the saints are not going to go through the tribulation because of whatever reason a person gives where God would not allow them to go through the tribulation then why did God allow the saints to be persecuted during the history of the Church.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

1Th 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

The saints have been persecuted during the history of the Church so why did God allow it but will not allow the saints to go through the tribulation.

The tribulation is referring to the saints not the world.

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Here it states the saints came out of great tribulation, and the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints which is the one world religious system that they get rid of her when the beast claims to be God for they do not need her anymore, and do not like that system anymore.

 

[CS1]

It seems to me you're saying there's no Holy Spirit involvement during the tribulation. Am I correct?

NO sir my brother ., I'm saying without the Holy Spirit in the believer, one will not see the Rapture if one holds to that, and If you do not have the Holy Spirit, one will not make it through the Great tribulation IF you believe the saved go through it.