Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[brightfame52]

@Evmur

Now I have a quarrel to make with Calvin when I say this for Calvin makes this an argument for excluding people from grace with his predestiny unto damnation.

I believe your quarrel is with God friend, who excludes people from the election of Grace, thats why God calls it a remnant,

Rom 9:15

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 11:5-7


5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

See God has elected/chosen a remnant of mankind to Salvation by Grace and the rest He decreed them to damnation.

 

[brightfame52]

@Evmur

That is not what the bible says

The bible says God has consigned all men under sin so that He may have MERCY upon all men.

That scripture is about all the elect Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Hes talking about all the elect remnant from the jews and all the elect from the Gentiles,

And notice, God gives them mercy for their unbelief, not condemnation. So you know its not all without exception.

 

[Evmur]

@Evmur



That scripture is about all the elect Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Hes talking about all the elect remnant from the jews and all the elect from the Gentiles,

And notice, God gives them mercy for their unbelief, not condemnation. So you know its not all without exception.

That's where Calvin makes his mistake. And I am not a Calvin hater but he was very much a 17th century European.

I do not dispute ELECTION.

Where they go wrong is in deciding what the purpose of election is for. WHY has God chosen us? why did He choose the Jews?
You have to go back to Abraham. Abraham was chosen that through him the families of the world might bless themselves.

We are chosen to be the instrument of salvation and blessing to the world ... not to exclude everyone but to include the many.

We are to be a city set upon a hill so that lost humanity might find their way to us. We are chosen [says Paul] to be conformed to the image of God's Son. It's not about salvation per se.

 

[Evmur]

@Evmur



I believe your quarrel is with God friend, who excludes people from the election of Grace, thats why God calls it a remnant,

Rom 9:15

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 11:5-7


5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

See God has elected/chosen a remnant of mankind to Salvation by Grace and the rest He decreed them to damnation.

you will not find these words in the bible "... a remnant of mankind to salvation by grace and the rest He decreed them to damnation"

Romans 11 v 5. Paul was speaking about the Jewish church ... they were the remnant.

 

[brightfame52]

That's where Calvin makes his mistake. And I am not a Calvin hater but he was very much a 17th century European.

I do not dispute ELECTION.

Where they go wrong is in deciding what the purpose of election is for. WHY has God chosen us? why did He choose the Jews?
You have to go back to Abraham. Abraham was chosen that through him the families of the world might bless themselves.

We are chosen to be the instrument of salvation and blessing to the world ... not to exclude everyone but to include the many.

We are to be a city set upon a hill so that lost humanity might find their way to us. We are chosen [says Paul] to be conformed to the image of God's Son. It's not about salvation per se.

So you dont believe Rom 11:32 is about the elect. Notice again those mentioned God has mercy on their unbelief. Thats not true of all Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

See the difference ?

 

[brightfame52]

you will not find these words in the bible "... a remnant of mankind to salvation by grace and the rest He decreed them to damnation"

Romans 11 v 5. Paul was speaking about the Jewish church ... they were the remnant.

Don't need to find those words, yet only some of mankind is elect, and that's a remnant, the rest are blinded. God decreed their blindness and their final destruction, for He created part of mankind as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction. Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[Evmur]

So you dont believe Rom 11:32 is about the elect. Notice again those mentioned God has mercy on their unbelief. Thats not true of all Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

See the difference ?

What I am disputing with you bro is the PURPOSE God has in all these deep doctrines. Reading from Tynedale simply because I have it to hand and my poor KJV is falling to pieces for age.

I would not that this secret be hid from brightfame52 [lest he be wise in his own conceits] that partly blindness is happened in Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in and so ALL Israel shall be saved.
As it is written
There shall come out of Sion He that doth deliver and shall turn away the ungodliness of Jacob. And this is My covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sakes but as touching ELECTION they are LOVED for the father's sakes.

YOU don't say they are loved, you say they are damned ... ELECTION says those very Jews who concerning the gospel are enemies yet are LOVED for the sake of the fathers.

For verily the gifts and calling of God are such that it cannot repent Him of them for like as ye in times passed have not believed God yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief, even so now have they not believed the mercy which has happened unto you that THEY TOO may obtain mercy.

God hath wrapped all nations in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all.

It's all about mercy bro, from top to bottom. It's not about excluding people but including people.

O the deepness of the abundant wisdom and knowledge of God, how unsearchable are His judgements and His ways are passed finding out. For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who has been His counsellor? Or who hath given to Him first that he might be recompensed again?
For of Him and through Him and for Him are all things. To Him be glory forever amen.

 

[Evmur]

Don't need to find those words, yet only some of mankind is elect, and that's a remnant, the rest are blinded. God decreed their blindness and their final destruction, for He created part of mankind as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction. Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

There is no predestination here. This has it's application AFTER Adam had fallen. Actually the one lump here is Israel as a nation.

There was only one "lump" of clay in the beginning and that was Adam. Adam was created unto honour, in the image of God. So the decision to make of the same lump either unto honour or dishonour comes after the fall.

And you see that God prepared beforehand [predestined] the vessels unto honour it says the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction ... they were not prepared beforehand unto destruction [not predestined] they fitted themselves unto destruction.

God created no-one to be damned.

 

[brightfame52]

What I am disputing with you bro is the PURPOSE God has in all these deep doctrines. Reading from Tynedale simply because I have it to hand and my poor KJV is falling to pieces for age.

I would not that this secret be hid from brightfame52 [lest he be wise in his own conceits] that partly blindness is happened in Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in and so ALL Israel shall be saved.
As it is written
There shall come out of Sion He that doth deliver and shall turn away the ungodliness of Jacob. And this is My covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sakes but as touching ELECTION they are LOVED for the father's sakes.

YOU don't say they are loved, you say they are damned ... ELECTION says those very Jews who concerning the gospel are enemies yet are LOVED for the sake of the fathers.

For verily the gifts and calling of God are such that it cannot repent Him of them for like as ye in times passed have not believed God yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief, even so now have they not believed the mercy which has happened unto you that THEY TOO may obtain mercy.

God hath wrapped all nations in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all.

It's all about mercy bro, from top to bottom. It's not about excluding people but including people.

O the deepness of the abundant wisdom and knowledge of God, how unsearchable are His judgements and His ways are passed finding out. For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who has been His counsellor? Or who hath given to Him first that he might be recompensed again?
For of Him and through Him and for Him are all things. To Him be glory forever amen.

I see, but only a remnant of mankind will be saved, justified.

 

[Cameron143]

I see, but only a remnant of mankind will be saved, justified.

Then how will the number in heaven be a number that no man can number?

 

[brightfame52]

There is no predestination here. This has it's application AFTER Adam had fallen. Actually the one lump here is Israel as a nation.

There was only one "lump" of clay in the beginning and that was Adam. Adam was created unto honour, in the image of God. So the decision to make of the same lump either unto honour or dishonour comes after the fall.

And you see that God prepared beforehand [predestined] the vessels unto honour it says the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction ... they were not prepared beforehand unto destruction [not predestined] they fitted themselves unto destruction.

God created no-one to be damned.

Sure its predestination there and everywhere else. God created certain people to be vessels of wrath and He fits them for destruction, they had no choice in the matter, just like a pot had no choice in the matter as to why the Potter created it and for what purpose.

The same for the vessels of mercy, they had no choice neither, all was Gods purpose and choice.

 

[brightfame52]

Then how will the number in heaven be a number that no man can number?

What do you mean how ? It just will be. Just think about the number that wont be in heaven, no doubt it exceeds the number that will be in heaven, either way, man doesnt know those things.

 

[Cameron143]

What do you mean how ? It just will be. Just think about the number that wont be in heaven, no doubt it exceeds the number that will be in heaven, either way, man doesnt know those things.

I mean there have been between 30 and 60 billion people come into the world. To this point, it would be fair to say that most have left this world without being saved. But most people have the ability to count well past a few billion. Abraham was promised a seed that compares to the stars of the sky and the sands on the shore. How will this be fulfilled if only a remnant is saved?
The glory of the knowledge of the Lord will fill the earth. This can only happen as people are saved and know the glory of the Lord. And it can only fill the earth if the majority of the people on earth are saved.

 

[brightfame52]

I mean there have been between 30 and 60 billion people come into the world. To this point, it would be fair to say that most have left this world without being saved. But most people have the ability to count well past a few billion. Abraham was promised a seed that compares to the stars of the sky and the sands on the shore. How will this be fulfilled if only a remnant is saved?
The glory of the knowledge of the Lord will fill the earth. This can only happen as people are saved and know the glory of the Lord. And it can only fill the earth if the majority of the people on earth are saved.

Like I said, there will be a large number saved, no man can number, and a larger number damned no man can number. Dont sweat it, its Gods business

 

[Cameron143]

Like I said, there will be a large number saved, no man can number, and a larger number damned no man can number. Dont sweat it, its Gods business

I'm not sweating it. While Israel was a remnant, there is no reason to believe that the church is.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm not sweating it. While Israel was a remnant, there is no reason to believe that the church is.

Seems like you sweating it to me.

 

[Cameron143]

Seems like you sweating it to me.

I'm as cool as the the other side of the pillow.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm as cool as the the other side of the pillow.

So are you interested in discussing my points as it regards the thread ?

 

[Cameron143]

So are you interested in discussing my points as it regards the thread ?

I largely agree with your assessment. But you don't seem to make allowance for the fact that having been justified, there is a need for this to be communicated to an individual in space and time. That is, the work that God has done in Christ must be applied to an individual. Because of this, I think you fail to understand that other people, in their comments, are essentially arguing from the experiential side of the argument. What they are saying isn't contradicting what you are saying generally, but merely looking at it from a different perspective.

 

[brightfame52]

I largely agree with your assessment. But you don't seem to make allowance for the fact that having been justified, there is a need for this to be communicated to an individual in space and time. That is, the work that God has done in Christ must be applied to an individual. Because of this, I think you fail to understand that other people, in their comments, are essentially arguing from the experiential side of the argument. What they are saying isn't contradicting what you are saying generally, but merely looking at it from a different perspective.

The thread is strictly about the legal aspect of Justification, when is it legally applied before the Throne of God. When does God reckon one to be Justified before Him and on what basis ? I believe the scripture teach that its before faith and while ungodly. What do you say ?