Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[turbosixx]

Peter also sets before us an undeniable proof that those who are saved by the grace of God can never be lost (John 10:27-29). Those who are in Christ are secure in Him. We are kept and preserved by the grace and power of God. Nothing can ever sever one of the Lord’s own from Him. As our Lord prayed for Peter, He prays for us; and God will not charge any with sin for whom Christ undertakes to be an Advocate (1 John 2:1-2; Romans 4:8).

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

1 Jn 2:1-2

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

May I suggest you're missing some important points in these passages.
John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
The ones who follow Jesus are secure. Following Jesus is something we do.

1 Jn
I suggest we understand chapter 2 in light of chapter 1.
1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we confess our sins, again that is something we do.

Rom. 4
I respectfully suggest it doesn't mean what you're implying.

 

[Jimbone]

On the contrary to your point. Who was the Hebrew letter addressed to? It was addressed to newly converted Hebrew Christians, so yes, the passages you referenced that I originally cited, Hebrews 6:4-6, WAS pertaining to saved individuals.

Of course he was talking to Christians. That 's your argument? I'm telling you it doesn't say "those who were saved", it just doesn't say what you declare it does, and you don't get to just be the authority. The whole new testament was written to Christians and when I take it all as a whole there is no way it tells me I can lose what He decided I have, what He gave me for His purpose. I don't get to over ride His will by mine. So if you want to take that one verse and decide you need to be very careful of not losing the Gift of Truth you were given, then you go ahead and be fully convinced. I don't believe that, I believe Jesus is more powerful than that and He tells us clearly He will lose NONE the Father gives Him. So if you believe God saves us, but we can lose it if we don't "want it anymore" I guess, then you go ahead and believe that. I don't believe we can slip up and lose salvation, nor do I believe we can turn away from His grace. I can't, but maybe you can.

 

[Anni]

. . . . .
Anni, if you once had the faith to believe John 3:16, God in His grace saved you forEVER. You can’t lose it. We all sin every now and then, but when we do, we repent and ask forgiveness from our heavenly Father.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

- Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV)
_______
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

- John 3:16-17 (KJV)

Thanks everyone

 

[turbosixx]

“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.

“‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

When we look at the letters to the churches, we get to see us from Jesus' perspective. I don't see Jesus telling them you're mine and you have nothing to worry about. He says the few who have not soiled their garments will walk with Him. If they do not wake up, He will come against them, and so on.
This does not look like OSAS at all.

 

[brightfame52]

May I suggest you're missing some important points in these passages.
John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
The ones who follow Jesus are secure. Following Jesus is something we do.

1 Jn
I suggest we understand chapter 2 in light of chapter 1.
1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we confess our sins, again that is something we do.

Rom. 4
I respectfully suggest it doesn't mean what you're implying.

Thats why they will never perish, they will forever follow Christ. Sin cant be charged to them ever. Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Tell me, what will they perish for ? It cant be sin

 

[turbosixx]

Thats why they will never perish, they will forever follow Christ. Sin cant be charged to them ever. Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Tell me, what will they perish for ? It cant be sin

I'm sorry I would love to believe they will forever follow Jesus but the verse does not say that.

They will perish for sin (iniquity)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

In Romans 4, what is Paul's point in using Abraham as an example based on the context.
4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?

 

[rogerg]

“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.

“‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

When we look at the letters to the churches, we get to see us from Jesus' perspective. I don't see Jesus telling them you're mine and you have nothing to worry about. He says the few who have not soiled their garments will walk with Him. If they do not wake up, He will come against them, and so on.
This does not look like OSAS at all.

The churches of The Revelation chapters 1,2 and 3, were corporate churches, not the spiritual Church. As such, some leaders
were not saved and led their congregation contrary to the word of God. However, there were also some members among them who were saved, and did understand and have faith in Christ, thereby their spiritual garments were not soiled because they were garments given to them by Christ upon saving them. Christ warned them to get their church back to the true gospel or the corporate church's candlestick would be removed. However, because their garments were from Christ, their names can never be blotted out of the book. This is equivalent to OSAS.
These verses inform us of they who "conquer" are: they are those whom God makes born-again.

[1Jo 5:1-4 CSB]
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves the one born of him.
2 This is how we know that we love God's children: when we love God and obey his commands.
3 For this is what love for God is: to keep his commands. And his commands are not a burden,
4 because everyone who has been born of God conquers the world. This is the victory that has conquered the world: our faith.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm sorry I would love to believe they will forever follow Jesus but the verse does not say that.

They will perish for sin (iniquity)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

In Romans 4, what is Paul's point in using Abraham as an example based on the context.
4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?

Im sorry you arent able to believe. They will never depart from the Lord Jer 32:40

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[romans113336]

The churches of The Revelation chapters 1,2 and 3, were corporate churches, not the spiritual Church. As such, some leaders
were not saved and led their congregation contrary to the word of God. However, there were also some members among them who were saved, and did understand and have faith in Christ, thereby their spiritual garments were not soiled because they were garments given to them by Christ upon saving them.

Our salvation is indeed past-tense, and is indeed by grace through faith in Christ.
That salvation is compared to the salvation of the Jews from slavery in Egypt, but, afterward, they sinned, and, so, fell under God's wrath, and forfeited the promise (today, the promise is eternal life in Christ, but they're not abiding in Christ, and, so, are condemned Ro 14:23).

The ones who had soiled their garments had "washed their garments in the blood of lamb", but they sinned, thus had "soiled their garments"--"Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready. It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints."

Moreover, Rv 3 says the ones who will walk with white garments with Christ are "worthy" and will not be blotted out of the Book of Life. God, Who does not change, says "the one who has sinned against Me I will blot out of My Book", so we have even more reason to believe "soiled their garments" means "they sin". What is the sin?

To figure that out, you need to know the commandment: "Believe on the Name of God's Son, AND love one another"--so, they were breaking one of those.

As for those who are born of God not continuing in sin, it specifies, "for His seed remains in him"--but Hebrews warns that a man's heart (parable of the sower) can change, saying,

Hebrews 3
12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end...

So, if a person rejects the seed (eg, rejects correction), they "go on sinning" and are "worthy of much sorer punishment" (Heb 10).

 

[brightfame52]

Our salvation is indeed past-tense, and is indeed by grace through faith in Christ.
That salvation is compared to the salvation of the Jews from slavery in Egypt, but, afterward, they sinned, and, so, fell under God's wrath, and forfeited the promise (today, the promise is eternal life in Christ, but they're not abiding in Christ, and, so, are condemned Ro 14:23).

The ones who had soiled their garments had "washed their garments in the blood of lamb", but they sinned, thus had "soiled their garments"--"Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready. It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints."

Moreover, Rv 3 says the ones who will walk with white garments with Christ are "worthy" and will not be blotted out of the Book of Life. God, Who does not change, says "the one who has sinned against Me I will blot out of My Book", so we have even more reason to believe "soiled their garments" means "they sin". What is the sin?

To figure that out, you need to know the commandment: "Believe on the Name of God's Son, AND love one another"--so, they were breaking one of those.

As for those who are born of God not continuing in sin, it specifies, "for His seed remains in him"--but Hebrews warns that a man's heart (parable of the sower) can change, saying,

Hebrews 3
12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end...

So, if a person rejects the seed (eg, rejects correction), they "go on sinning" and are "worthy of much sorer punishment" (Heb 10).

False teaching, dont understand salvation. Those who Christ die for are saved from the penalty of sin and wrath while they are enemies and unbelievers. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies[unbelievers], we were reconciled[saved.justified] to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[romans113336]

False teaching, dont understand salvation. Those who Christ die for are saved from the penalty of sin and wrath while they are enemies and unbelievers. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies[unbelievers], we were reconciled[saved.justified] to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Yep, saved like the Jews were saved from Egypt, yet, after having been saved, they fell under God's wrath for sinning and forfeited the Promise.

Which part of that is false?

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Yep, saved like the Jews were saved from Egypt, yet they fell under God's wrath for sinning and forfeited the Promise.

Which part of that is false?

The New Testament speaks to this as being Truth...

Jude 1:5,6
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

*If once saved always saved was true, then the Lord would not be speaking thru Jude to put us in remembrance about what happened to those that quit believing (turned their backs on the Lord to live in opposition to Him which is to live in sin).

*If angels having been created perfect turn away from the Lord and be separated from Him forever, we would experience the same. Thankfully, the Lord has provided a way for man to confess and forsake sin in order to receive mercy (see Proverbs 28:13), but if we continue in our sin we will not have mercy due having turned away from the Lord

 

[romans113336]

Im sorry you arent able to believe. They will never depart from the Lord Jer 32:40

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Nope, that word doesn't mean "they definitely will not" in every case, since they first use of it is used when God said "Have you eaten of the tree whereof I commanded you SHOULD NOT eat?"

The fear is in us, so that we should not depart--it has efficacy but it is not necessarily irresistible.

For example :

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting Him Who calls you in the grace of Christ, and are going after another Gospel."

Also, Heb 3 says "make sure there's is not someone among you who falls away from them living God by his heart becoming hardened through the deceitfulness of sin".

Also, every single sin is "idolatry" ("no covetous man who is an idolater"), which is what makes people not abide in Christ (1 Jn 5:21).
In other words, for your interpretation to be true, Christians could never sin. Of course, they do.

 

[Jimbone]

Yep, saved like the Jews were saved from Egypt, yet, after having been saved, they fell under God's wrath for sinning and forfeited the Promise.

Which part of that is false?

The part where their spirits were resurrected and reconciled to His Spirit, by His grace, by the sacrifice Jesus laid down, for His glory. That's what is false about saying they "were saved". I'm not trying to be ugly, but this is the worst argument for a Christian being able to lose their salvation I've ever heard. I don't understand why people fight to defend the weakness of Gods power to save. Please let me know exactly what I need to do to "keep" my salvation? At what point do I become unreborn?

 

[romans113336]

The part where their spirits were resurrected and reconciled to His Spirit, by His grace, by the sacrifice Jesus laid down, for His glory. That's what is false about saying they "were saved". I'm not trying to be ugly, but this is the worst argument for a Christian being able to lose their salvation I've ever heard. I don't understand why people fight to defend the weakness of Gods power to save. Please let me know exactly what I need to do to "keep" my salvation? At what point do I become unreborn?

I never mentioned spirits resurrecting.

I asked what about WHAT I SAID was false.

As for God's power to save, I don't question Gods power, but He puts His power to work for what His mind has decided. If someone says "God cannot lie", do you ask, "How could you question God's power?"?
No, of course not!
If God says "these are the conditions for salvation", His power is not in question to back His Word up just because someone says "God says there are conditions".

 

[brightfame52]

Yep, saved like the Jews were saved from Egypt, yet, after having been saved, they fell under God's wrath for sinning and forfeited the Promise.

Which part of that is false?

They were saved by Christs death, while they were enemies, unbelievers. They were saved from wrath.

 

[brightfame52]

Nope, that word doesn't mean "they definitely will not" in every case, since they first use of it is used when God said "Have you eaten of the tree whereof I commanded you SHOULD NOT eat?"

The fear is in us, so that we should not depart--it has efficacy but it is not necessarily irresistible.

For example :

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting Him Who calls you in the grace of Christ, and are going after another Gospel."

Also, Heb 3 says "make sure there's is not someone among you who falls away from them living God by his heart becoming hardened through the deceitfulness of sin".

Also, every single sin is "idolatry" ("no covetous man who is an idolater"), which is what makes people not abide in Christ (1 Jn 5:21).
In other words, for your interpretation to be true, Christians could never sin. Of course, they do.

Thats a Salvation Blessing, a New heart and they shall never depart Jer 32:40


And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[romans113336]

Thats a Salvation Blessing, a New heart and they shall never depart Jer 32:40


And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Already debunked your interpretation.

 

[brightfame52]

Already debunked your interpretation.

You are in unbelief:

Jer 32:40

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[turbosixx]

The churches of The Revelation chapters 1,2 and 3, were corporate churches, not the spiritual Church. As such, some leaders were not saved and led their congregation contrary to the word of God.

Could you please explain what you mean showing me in the passage how you come to this conclusion? I see it addressed to the church not the leaders.

However, there were also some members among them who were saved, and did understand and have faith in Christ, thereby their spiritual garments were not soiled because they were garments given to them by Christ upon saving them.

Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.
I don't see how this can mean anything other than most have soiled their garments and a few have not soiled. If you don't have a garment, it's impossible to soil it.

Christ warned them to get their church back to the true gospel or the corporate church's candlestick would be removed.

Yes, this is a warning to get back to the place they once were and have fallen from.

However, because their garments were from Christ, their names can never be blotted out of the book. This is equivalent to OSAS.
These verses inform us of they who "conquer" are: they are those whom God makes born-again.

This is written to the church and Jesus is applying on the individual level. The one who conquers are the ones who either never strayed or the ones who repented and were restored based on the context.