God's Intervention?

[Cameron143]

Yes, if He chooses to be. Scripture states that God is perfect in Knowledge. If there is knowledge to be known, God knows it. The number of sand on a beach is knowledge only God could know. Thoughts in your mind is knowledge only God can know.

What if future decisions are not knowledge to be known until one makes the decision? Maybe God has allowed man to have a free will to make choices all day everyday. And God is still working in and through man's choices to bring about his desired end. That is a mighty God.

And please, if you're reading this, do not use phrases like, "God is surprised...caught off guard...etc...."

I understand your premise. I disagree with it. While I do believe that man has a limited freewill, this in no way limits God's knowledge of those choices. Take for example Acts 2:23...Him, being delivered by the determinate council and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain...Jesus' death was foreknown by God but happened as wicked men exercised their own wills.

 

[John146]

I understand your premise. I disagree with it. While I do believe that man has a limited freewill, this in no way limits God's knowledge of those choices. Take for example Acts 2:23...Him, being delivered by the determinate council and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain...Jesus' death was foreknown by God but happened as wicked men exercised their own wills.

I agree, Jesus' arrest and death was predetermined by God. All of prophecy of scripture has been determined by God and will take place. What about all things outside of scripture that God has not determined by his word?

 

[John146]

I understand your premise. I disagree with it. While I do believe that man has a limited freewill, this in no way limits God's knowledge of those choices. Take for example Acts 2:23...Him, being delivered by the determinate council and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain...Jesus' death was foreknown by God but happened as wicked men exercised their own wills.

Furthermore, why would scripture state that this if all things are determined and foreknown by God? It sounds like there are things that are not determined and foreknown by God. Yes?

 

[Cameron143]

Furthermore, why would scripture state that this if all things are determined and foreknown by God? It sounds like there are things that are not determined and foreknown by God. Yes?

That's a complicated question. God is the first cause of all things by virtue of creation. But there are levels of cause. So you will have to establish at what level.
As far as foreknowledge, if you believe God is omniscient, by definition, He knows all things. Do you believe God is omniscient?

 

[Musicmaster]

Verse please....

It appears you are not reading the posts provided with the quoted verses, so it appears that we are at a moot standstill.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Who said anything about the Lord being surprised? But to deny His intervention in the affairs of men is rather foolish. And then to bring in Gnosticism is even more foolish.

Not at all. There's nothing at all foolish in saying that the Lord does not change the course of things, because that He does suggests that He is not in total control over His creation and foresaw it all. That demands that He does not see the end from the beginning, and that He is therefore NOT the Alpha and Omega. One must ASSUME the Lord did not already know the course of every situation before it ever materialized, and therefore the need for "intervention."

Superimposing our own ignorance over onto God the thing of the future and the unseen things to us in this world, and placing that same weakness over onto God, and therefore concluding "intervention," that's just fleshly presumption at its worst!

MM

 

[Nehemiah6]

Not at all. There's nothing at all foolish in saying that the Lord does not change the course of things, because that He does suggests that He is not in total control over His creation and foresaw it all.

You seem to be mixing things up. "Total control" has nothing to do with divine intervention. The Lord has intervened in the affairs of men ever since creation.

 

[John146]

That's a complicated question. God is the first cause of all things by virtue of creation. But there are levels of cause. So you will have to establish at what level.
As far as foreknowledge, if you believe God is omniscient, by definition, He knows all things. Do you believe God is omniscient?

Yes, the biblical definition is, "perfect in knowledge." What if future events, not foretold by God in his word, are not knowledge because God has chosen to allow man to have choices? Is not this possible?

 

[John146]

It appears you are not reading the posts provided with the quoted verses, so it appears that we are at a moot standstill.

MM

And yet, none of those verses states that God knew the prayer was coming. I'd invite you to read the book of Jonah.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes, the biblical definition is, "perfect in knowledge." What if future events, not foretold by God in his word, are not knowledge because God has chosen to allow man to have choices? Is not this possible?

By that definition, I suppose. I believe your definition is wrong, however.

 

[Komentaja]

Yes, if He chooses to be. Scripture states that God is perfect in Knowledge. If there is knowledge to be known, God knows it. The number of sand on a beach is knowledge only God could know. Thoughts in your mind is knowledge only God can know.

What if future decisions are not knowledge to be known until one makes the decision? Maybe God has allowed man to have a free will to make choices all day everyday. And God is still working in and through man's choices to bring about his desired end. That is a mighty God.

And please, if you're reading this, do not use phrases like, "God is surprised...caught off guard...etc...."

How could Jesus predict the Matt 26:34
Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

if He does not know the future for sure.

 

[John146]

By that definition, I suppose. I believe your definition is wrong, however.

Perfect means complete, not lacking. If there is knowledge to be known, God knows it.

 

[Cameron143]

Perfect means complete, not lacking. If there is knowledge to be known, God knows it.

Omniscient means all-knowing. So by definition, not knowing means not omniscient. Foreknowledge is included in omniscience. That doesn't merely apply to His decrees.

 

[studentoftheword]

How so?

Cause God says SO

English Standard Version
Genesis 1:26
26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

 

[Blade]

Blood of Jesus..

Huh?

There are some hyper-charismatics out there who teach about God's alleged "intervening power."

What is that? How does that work? Where does the Bible elude to such a power that actually needs to be exercised at all by the Most High?

I found an instance where the word "intervene" exists in English translations, specifically in the NIV for Isaiah 59:16, which is not a reference to God at all, and the NKJV for Zephaniah 2:7, which IS a reference to an act by God, but is not necessarily the best translated word in that instance, and is therefore misleading.

Why?

Well, to say that the Lord must intervene in any life or event in this world is to imply that the Lord does not exercise His powerful control over even the atoms in this universe. I like how Justin Peters put it when referring to the most distant galaxy, billions of light years from earth, and point to just one random atom in the center of a random star, a Hydrogen atom, and observing that the Lord is actively holding that atom together, even though it's too far away to have any measurable effect upon us here, on this planet...even there His consisting power is holding that atom together.

Collasians 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon defines the Greek word translated "consist" in this way:

"to cohere, hold together: τά πάντα συνέστηκεν ἐν αὐτῷ, Colossians 1:17"

Without that consistent, never relaxed for an instant, power, the entire universe, including our bodies, would "come unglued." Yes, everything would become vapor and just expand outward through space.

Therefore, to presume the Lord is as the Deists believe, in that He wound things up like a clock spring, only to occasionally return and "intervene" where He had lost control because of boredom or some other "deific malady" Deists presume about THEIR god...no. The Lord is always engaged and in total control to the extend that He never needs to intervene. Every event, every happening, even crime, every blessing, every healing, every death from disease...it ALL is within the purview of His Sovereign oversight.

What are your thoughts?

MM

""intervening power." its all through out the word of God. Sometimes things happen and we just don't understand or do not want to face it. Why you how you tied "intervening power" with some made up group " hyper-charismatics " no clue.

You know there are words Christians' use that are no where in the word of God yet we use them right? Yes the POWER OF PRAYER! That is where you fight. Seems some grow in the lord slower faster some are strong in the faith others are not. Yet He that started a good work in us will finish it.

There are those out in the Christian world that ....well its all based on something personal to them. I disagree with thing they say and those they go after but they love Christ that's what matters to me. Can't get around this...FIATH. Some do not work their faith nor exercise it. Know this what we personally believe what we confess and write GOD can never go against our will. So if we say this or that can not happen.. you will get exactly what you believe. Faith works both ways. I don't just say this I live it. I stand and know what my Father said is true and He can not lie. When I have done all to stand I STAND! No matter how many fall by my side I will stand. I don't look at what is happening around me to then judge how my Father works. Faith working it exercising it.

I think this is I could be wrong forgive me but something else.

If we look up intervening power you get this right at the start "God saved His people from the hands of the Egyptians when He called on Moses to lead the Israelites out of Egypt and across the Red Sea ". All through out the word so I wonder what is this really about?

 

[Musicmaster]

You seem to be mixing things up. "Total control" has nothing to do with divine intervention. The Lord has intervened in the affairs of men ever since creation.

Based on what? How can anyone look at events in the Bible and say that the control over those things was already exercised before time? Who among us can see into the realm of eternity to say one way or the other?

MM

 

[John146]

Omniscient means all-knowing. So by definition, not knowing means not omniscient. Foreknowledge is included in omniscience. That doesn't merely apply to His decrees.

God is all knowing, I agree. You are assuming that the future is knowledge. That's where I differ from you. The future is not knowledge until it occurs. Only the things set forth in his word as prophecy is knowledge that's is certain to take place. I would add, let's not define omniscient by our standard and then put God into our definition. Let's allow the bible to define everything we know about God.

 

[Musicmaster]

Blood of Jesus..


""intervening power." its all through out the word of God. Sometimes things happen and we just don't understand or do not want to face it. Why you how you tied "intervening power" with some made up group " hyper-charismatics " no clue.

You know there are words Christians' use that are no where in the word of God yet we use them right? Yes the POWER OF PRAYER! That is where you fight. Seems some grow in the lord slower faster some are strong in the faith others are not. Yet He that started a good work in us will finish it.

There are those out in the Christian world that ....well its all based on something personal to them. I disagree with thing they say and those they go after but they love Christ that's what matters to me. Can't get around this...FIATH. Some do not work their faith nor exercise it. Know this what we personally believe what we confess and write GOD can never go against our will. So if we say this or that can not happen.. you will get exactly what you believe. Faith works both ways. I don't just say this I live it. I stand and know what my Father said is true and He can not lie. When I have done all to stand I STAND! No matter how many fall by my side I will stand. I don't look at what is happening around me to then judge how my Father works. Faith working it exercising it.

I think this is I could be wrong forgive me but something else.

If we look up intervening power you get this right at the start "God saved His people from the hands of the Egyptians when He called on Moses to lead the Israelites out of Egypt and across the Red Sea ". All through out the word so I wonder what is this really about?

I will agree that people see "intervening power" throughout scripture when they have no way of knowing one way or the other.

MM

 

[Cameron143]

God is all knowing, I agree. You are assuming that the future is knowledge. That's where I differ from you. The future is not knowledge until it occurs. Only the things set forth in his word as prophecy is knowledge that's is certain to take place. I would add, let's not define omniscient by our standard and then put God into our definition. Let's allow the bible to define everything we know about God.

This goes back to a post earlier where I explained that God is different from us. I agree for humans, the future is unknown. This is not true of God. You should read Isaiah 46:9-10.

 

[John146]

This goes back to a post earlier where I explained that God is different from us. I agree for humans, the future is unknown. This is not true of God. You should read Isaiah 46:9-10.

I've read and studied it much. What does it state that God has declared from the beginning? The end right. The end is declared in Revelation. He knew what has been declared in Revelation from the beginning. What it does not state is, all that in between when it comes to man. The end has been declared by God from the beginning. God wins. God reigns on the throne forever and ever. He makes all things new. You are assuming this verse means everything in between.

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: