The right why to learn

[awelight]

At the risk of being a bit misunderstood, I am going to make some points you may not understand, or like. Then as in any conversation that happens.
First you may see me as lost by this, however I place my faith in HaShem. It was Him that gave us salvation from the start, and Him that gave His son, and Him that said Have others gods before me. This in no way tarnishes what Yeshua did for us. However as seen in Rev. 14:12 we are to have the OF Yeshua. It doesn't say faith in, it says OF. So it with this and other passages that I place faith the one that has given us salvation from the foundation of the earth. The One that has shown us in all that He has done, what it takes to find said salvation. We are not place our faith in the sacrifice, or the one being sacrificed. That would be like thinking a 4 legged lamb can grant salvation. Oh I do know, and believe that Yeshua willing gave His life for us, yet I also believe that Yeshua and HaShem are one in the same. If not then are we not following after 2 gods?
I don't think one can pass judgement on a nation for the actions of it's leaders. As we know, the religious leaders of that time, did what we can see our nations leaders doing today. They seen a chance to become rich, and twisted what they understood in a way that placed more power in their own hands, and forced others to follow. True some of they had done is unknown to us, so we should not think we have the answers that are not there. So am I lost over the fact that I place my trust in HaShem when it comes to salvation? Lets let HaShem be the judge of that shale we.
Now as to your comment on fellowship. The Torah as we know is the foundation of everything we find in the Word. Nothing that is found in any part of the Word can't be found there. So if my use of Torah as the bedrock of my faith is unsettling to anyone, I will not apologize, nor will I stop looking to it as the best foundation to build on.
One sacrifce that I made note of on here is the fellowship offering. Something that every true believer does today. Oh we don't run to an alter and offer burnt offerings, yet we do give. Some to the point that they may think, Opps, now how do I pay this bill? If said gift/offering was done through faith and obedience, that bill will get paid. Why? HaShem has told us, He will meet our needs. Not our wants, our needs.

I completely agree with you as to Salvation being given by God. From the beginning to the end in Glorification, it is all of God.

Having said that, you understanding of both Theology and Christology, are, how shall we say, a bit flawed.

First, God is only one God. One in essence but within that essence, three distinct Persons. This does not constitute three gods, anymore than 1x1x1=3. For we know that 1x1x1=1. To deny that Christ was the "Godman" - the Second Person of the Godhead, is to deny who Jesus Christ was and is. For a man cannot please God and therefore his death could not appease God's Justice. Only God, in all His perfections, could take on flesh and make the sacrifice efficient for the task.

Additionally, one would have serious problems, if their being honest, with the following verses of Scripture, if you believe that God manifested Himself in several different persons:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
For whom then was God talking to? For who has ever been God's counselor or who has ever given Him advice? This verse proves the Divine Trinity. A plural conversation between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each equal to the other, 1x1x1=1 God. But let us not stop here:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him;
Mat 3:17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The eternal Son was being Baptized - The Holy Spirit descended upon Him - the Father made His declaration about His Son. Otherwise, God was in three places at once, representing three different things. This would be quite a stretch of any normal contextual understanding.

Second, as to Christology - to not understand that Jesus Christ was BOTH fully God and fully Man, Is to not know Christ. For this is no better than the disbelieving Jews or the Muslims. Our Lord asked Peter, "Who do you say I am?", a very, very important question. Everyone knows about Jesus Christ but how we know Him makes the difference. One of the BEST proofs in Scripture, as to His Divinity, is here:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

Jesus Christ is the Divine Logos. He is the Word. If He was not and is not the Second Person of the Godhead, then how could He be "with" God and "was" God? His Eternal Sonship is proven in John 1:2. Since Jesus Christ is the only way and the life, believers must know Him as He is. It has become quite fashionable today, for people to believe there are many ways to God but Jesus Christ said, He is the only way to the Father.

The OT Saints believed the Promises of God and the NT Saints believe the reality of those Promises. The OT pointed to Jesus Christ and the NT speaks of His first coming and ascension, in addition to His Second Coming. There is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING more important than the proper understanding of Christology - Without this, no Savior.

I also like this verse very much, to show that Jesus Christ was the Great "I Am" of the OT:
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57 The Jews therefore said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I hope you will ponder these things and may the Spirit reveal the Truth to you. You have a good grasp on the OT and have come to many right conclusions, however, sadly, this will not aid you without understanding who God is. May God's Blessings be upon you.

 

[Rainrider]

I completely agree with you as to Salvation being given by God. From the beginning to the end in Glorification, it is all of God.

Having said that, you understanding of both Theology and Christology, are, how shall we say, a bit flawed.

First, God is only one God. One in essence but within that essence, three distinct Persons. This does not constitute three gods, anymore than 1x1x1=3. For we know that 1x1x1=1. To deny that Christ was the "Godman" - the Second Person of the Godhead, is to deny who Jesus Christ was and is. For a man cannot please God and therefore his death could not appease God's Justice. Only God, in all His perfections, could take on flesh and make the sacrifice efficient for the task.

Additionally, one would have serious problems, if their being honest, with the following verses of Scripture, if you believe that God manifested Himself in several different persons:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
For whom then was God talking to? For who has ever been God's counselor or who has ever given Him advice? This verse proves the Divine Trinity. A plural conversation between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each equal to the other, 1x1x1=1 God. But let us not stop here:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him;
Mat 3:17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The eternal Son was being Baptized - The Holy Spirit descended upon Him - the Father made His declaration about His Son. Otherwise, God was in three places at once, representing three different things. This would be quite a stretch of any normal contextual understanding.

Second, as to Christology - to not understand that Jesus Christ was BOTH fully God and fully Man, Is to not know Christ. For this is no better than the disbelieving Jews or the Muslims. Our Lord asked Peter, "Who do you say I am?", a very, very important question. Everyone knows about Jesus Christ but how we know Him makes the difference. One of the BEST proofs in Scripture, as to His Divinity, is here:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

Jesus Christ is the Divine Logos. He is the Word. If He was not and is not the Second Person of the Godhead, then how could He be "with" God and "was" God? His Eternal Sonship is proven in John 1:2. Since Jesus Christ is the only way and the life, believers must know Him as He is. It has become quite fashionable today, for people to believe there are many ways to God but Jesus Christ said, He is the only way to the Father.

The OT Saints believed the Promises of God and the NT Saints believe the reality of those Promises. The OT pointed to Jesus Christ and the NT speaks of His first coming and ascension, in addition to His Second Coming. There is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING more important than the proper understanding of Christology - Without this, no Savior.

I also like this verse very much, to show that Jesus Christ was the Great "I Am" of the OT:
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57 The Jews therefore said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I hope you will ponder these things and may the Spirit reveal the Truth to you. You have a good grasp on the OT and have come to many right conclusions, however, sadly, this will not aid you without understanding who God is. May God's Blessings be upon you.

I don't think I have ever denied Yeshua, who, and what He has done for us. However I don't think you willl ever see me bow to teachings that aren't in line with the Word. As what you have said in the last post, are the main reason that we as gentiles have little hope of reaching Israel in a meaningful way, much less bring them to jealousy, as Paul described it. Rom. 11:11
I do like your last choice of scripture though. You see when Yeshua say's before Abraham was, I AM. As we know I Am is the name given to Moses by HaShem. See Ex. 3:14. The use of this name was also the reason that those who went to arrest Yeshua feel back. John 18:6.
As to my understanding of both O.T. and N.T. they are much the same. As you can see in my post, I do know both, and use both when trying to give my understanding. As it stands right now, I am working more in the O.T. as a way to hopfully show the truth of the Word. Also, it is our hope that some will see the N.T. can't stand with out the O.T. Give it a read and you will find this to be true.

 

[Rainrider]

As time has given us the chance to think over the last post, we have found that there is no need to cover the reasoning for Abram going to Egypt. After all we all know the why, just as we know what drove Jacob into Egypt. Also we see no reason to cover Salvation in Torah any further than we have. After all, any that are open to seeing it, most likely have. Any that are not open, most likely will remain that way.
What we are going to do is look at what the New covenant really is, what is said of it, and what some have tried to change it into.
Now keep in mind, we look at the facts as placed down in the Word. Our reason for looking at Torah is to build on that bed rock. The forst thing we need to understand is that, HaShem doesn't change His mind. Once He has said it, that is how it is. Sin as can be seen in Gen. - Rev. hasn't change it was, is, and will be a transmigration of His Law. As we can see in every book of the Word, man kind has been judged in concordance with the Law, and death was, is, and will always be the penalty for sin. Not one person is above the Law, nor immune to that penalty. If we die in sin, we will face the second death. Yes that does mean even if we think we are saved. After all as Yeshua has said,
Mat 7:21"Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22On judgment day many will say to me, 'Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.'
Mat 7:23But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'
This should give reason to question ones understanding, in ways that some will say are not in line with the church, or denominational theology, or what ever fancy lable one wishes to place on it. In our minds the only form of theology, or doctrine that matters is the one that is 100% in line the theachings of the Word. As I know that some wish to place parts of Paul's teachings in conflict with other parts of Paul's teachings, I will not entertain such faults hoods. However, we may show once that you misunderstand what you think you know. ONLY ONCE.
Now to give you something to think on for a day or two. Please take the time to read the following.
Num 23:19, 1Sa 15:29, Isa 31:2, Jer 4:28, Eze 24:14, Zec 8:14, Mal 3:6, Act 15:11, Act 26:7, Rom 4:12, Rom 11:5, Gal 3:6, Gal 3:9, Heb 13:8, 2Pe 3:4,

 

[awelight]

I don't think I have ever denied Yeshua, who, and what He has done for us. However I don't think you willl ever see me bow to teachings that aren't in line with the Word. As what you have said in the last post, are the main reason that we as gentiles have little hope of reaching Israel in a meaningful way, much less bring them to jealousy, as Paul described it. Rom. 11:11
I do like your last choice of scripture though. You see when Yeshua say's before Abraham was, I AM. As we know I Am is the name given to Moses by HaShem. See Ex. 3:14. The use of this name was also the reason that those who went to arrest Yeshua feel back. John 18:6.
As to my understanding of both O.T. and N.T. they are much the same. As you can see in my post, I do know both, and use both when trying to give my understanding. As it stands right now, I am working more in the O.T. as a way to hopfully show the truth of the Word. Also, it is our hope that some will see the N.T. can't stand with out the O.T. Give it a read and you will find this to be true.

Thanks for your reply and I would like to continue this a bit further. Please excuse the fact that it became somewhat lengthy.

You did not respond, to the part of my post, that declared God as the Divine Trinity or to Jesus Christ as being the God-man. I suppose therefore, you are not in agreement with this view of Theology or Christology. I would be curious as to your reasoning on these issues. However, a warning here: Do not let yourself get caught up in subjective reasoning, which is common in the world today. The world says: "What is truth? Truth is what is true to me." So each person carries about their own truth but as True Believers, our truth must be constantly tested against "Objective Truth". The True Word of God. If I or someone else cannot support their understanding of the Truth - then we are obligated, in order to honor God and not men, to relinquish our position. Again, to show that Jesus Christ is God, I give these verses from Hebrews - the letter to the Jewish people. The writer starts out by defending Jesus Christ's Divinity.
Hebrews 1:1-3 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, 2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; 3 who being the radiance of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

As to bringing Israel to jealousy - You said: As what you have said in the last post, are the main reason that we as gentiles have little hope of reaching Israel in a meaningful way, much less bring them to jealousy...

It would seem you missed the main point of what Paul was teaching here. We, as individuals, do not bring Israel to jealousy. Rather, by the mere fact that God has brought in and is bringing in, Gentiles - is already provoking Israel to jealousy. Israel believed that they and only they would have God and His Salvation. Nevertheless, now is the age of the Gentiles and they can't believe that their God is including the Gentiles. Yea, those wretched heathens... infidels. Not only this, but God's Kingdom is on display in the churches of Jesus Christ - not in Jerusalem. However, there is coming a day - The Day of the Lord - when His kingdom shall be set upon the throne of David, in the city of Jerusalem. This is what Paul meant when he wrote: Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for them to be provoked to jealousy.

As to the present state of Israel. Paul wrote: Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. No doubt making a reference to what Isaiah had said in: Isa 29:10. While not word for word, the idea is the same and the Apostle Paul often repurposed OT Scripture to use in his arguments. We must also remember, that not all of ethnic Israel is true Israel. (Rom. 9:6). Just like the Gentiles, that are being saved, true Israel will be saved by God's Eternal Election. (Rom. 9:11; 11:5, 7, 28)

Therefore, we need not do something special to communicate with ethnic Jews, If one of them has been given Grace, then simply talk to them about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are not trying to convert every Jew, (for only God can do this) but are looking for the lost sheep of Israel and of the Nations. See the parable of John 10:1-18.

As to the Great I Am... In the Greek, this is ἐγὼ εἰμί. Which literally means: "I am" but carries the meaning of: "I exist". In the OT book of Exodus, when God said: "I am that I am". hâyâh 'ăsher hâyâh in Hebrew, which too means "I exist that I exist. This spoke of God's eternality, in both of these cases. The Jews recognized what Jesus had declared before them in John 8:58 - He said He was eternal and as such, declared Himself equal to God, just as He had done previously in conversations with the Jews, like the one recorded in John 5:18: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Please note the reaction here of the listeners. It was not as you said: The use of this name ( I Am) was also the reason that those who went to arrest Yeshua feel back. John 18:6. This is incorrect because John 18:6, is completely out of context, as to the conversation recorded in John 8:58. Their reaction is recorded in John 8:59 - They took up stones therefore to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

I hope by now, you can see that I am fairly well versed in both the OT and NT. But remember what the Lord said, by the Spirit, through the writer Paul: 2Ti 3:16 & 17 - Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness: (17) that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work. While I would agree, the OT is the foundation of all that is to come, the NT reveals many things that were either unclear in the Old or were still a mystery.

Until we talk again. Peace be upon you.

 

[Rainrider]

Thanks for your reply and I would like to continue this a bit further. Please excuse the fact that it became somewhat lengthy.

You did not respond, to the part of my post, that declared God as the Divine Trinity or to Jesus Christ as being the God-man. I suppose therefore, you are not in agreement with this view of Theology or Christology. I would be curious as to your reasoning on these issues. However, a warning here: Do not let yourself get caught up in subjective reasoning, which is common in the world today. The world says: "What is truth? Truth is what is true to me." So each person carries about their own truth but as True Believers, our truth must be constantly tested against "Objective Truth". The True Word of God. If I or someone else cannot support their understanding of the Truth - then we are obligated, in order to honor God and not men, to relinquish our position. Again, to show that Jesus Christ is God, I give these verses from Hebrews - the letter to the Jewish people. The writer starts out by defending Jesus Christ's Divinity.
Hebrews 1:1-3 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, 2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; 3 who being the radiance of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

As to bringing Israel to jealousy - You said: As what you have said in the last post, are the main reason that we as gentiles have little hope of reaching Israel in a meaningful way, much less bring them to jealousy...

It would seem you missed the main point of what Paul was teaching here. We, as individuals, do not bring Israel to jealousy. Rather, by the mere fact that God has brought in and is bringing in, Gentiles - is already provoking Israel to jealousy. Israel believed that they and only they would have God and His Salvation. Nevertheless, now is the age of the Gentiles and they can't believe that their God is including the Gentiles. Yea, those wretched heathens... infidels. Not only this, but God's Kingdom is on display in the churches of Jesus Christ - not in Jerusalem. However, there is coming a day - The Day of the Lord - when His kingdom shall be set upon the throne of David, in the city of Jerusalem. This is what Paul meant when he wrote: Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for them to be provoked to jealousy.

As to the present state of Israel. Paul wrote: Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. No doubt making a reference to what Isaiah had said in: Isa 29:10. While not word for word, the idea is the same and the Apostle Paul often repurposed OT Scripture to use in his arguments. We must also remember, that not all of ethnic Israel is true Israel. (Rom. 9:6). Just like the Gentiles, that are being saved, true Israel will be saved by God's Eternal Election. (Rom. 9:11; 11:5, 7, 28)

Therefore, we need not do something special to communicate with ethnic Jews, If one of them has been given Grace, then simply talk to them about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are not trying to convert every Jew, (for only God can do this) but are looking for the lost sheep of Israel and of the Nations. See the parable of John 10:1-18.

As to the Great I Am... In the Greek, this is ἐγὼ εἰμί. Which literally means: "I am" but carries the meaning of: "I exist". In the OT book of Exodus, when God said: "I am that I am". hâyâh 'ăsher hâyâh in Hebrew, which too means "I exist that I exist. This spoke of God's eternality, in both of these cases. The Jews recognized what Jesus had declared before them in John 8:58 - He said He was eternal and as such, declared Himself equal to God, just as He had done previously in conversations with the Jews, like the one recorded in John 5:18: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Please note the reaction here of the listeners. It was not as you said: The use of this name ( I Am) was also the reason that those who went to arrest Yeshua feel back. John 18:6. This is incorrect because John 18:6, is completely out of context, as to the conversation recorded in John 8:58. Their reaction is recorded in John 8:59 - They took up stones therefore to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

I hope by now, you can see that I am fairly well versed in both the OT and NT. But remember what the Lord said, by the Spirit, through the writer Paul: 2Ti 3:16 & 17 - Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness: (17) that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work. While I would agree, the OT is the foundation of all that is to come, the NT reveals many things that were either unclear in the Old or were still a mystery.

Until we talk again. Peace be upon you.

In reply to a trinity..
Deu 6:4"Listen, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.
Mar 12:29Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: 'Listen, O Israel! The LORD our God is the one and only LORD.
We know that HaShem is one, not 3, as His Word is truth, and there is no reason to think He would not lead to any wrong conclusion. There for as we read in the first chapter of John, they are one and the same.
As for Paul, The Jewish poeple understood they were to be a light unto the world. meaning they were to teach teh nations, (nations means gentiles.) though they gave that up, in favor of their own understandings. Gentiles were not ever to be out siders, that is why HaShem seen fit to explain that we were welcomed. This is done in the feast, as well as in worship. Don't get me wrong, we were not to go into the Temple it's self. Yet just we read that Ruth was excepted, so to were any from the nations, that were willing to take on the challenges they would face.
As we learn more of this we see that HaShem never said, Nope sorry on one from the nations is going ever find salvation. In fact, we find that the opposite is true. The book of Jonah is witness to this. As we should know Nineveh was an Assyrian city, that HaShem seen fit to give the opportunity for salvation.
Knowing this, we must rethink what we think we know about Paul. You see it is only when Irsael sees that we have a sound, and loving relationship with HaShem, the one true LORD, can we hope to show them by our actions the way. Saying that we have 3 gods will not get us there. It also goes against the teachings we find in the Word.
So how do see Yeshua? He was HaShem, and that HaShem took on a hunam body isn't something new. Abraham seen Him in human form, as well as many others. This is why the human ask, Why have you forsaken me? You see, for HaShem to to remain pure, He can't touch the dead. So at the time of Yeshua's death HaShem removed Himself from that body. I know that with any form of theology one can build any form of understanding they like. Yet when one turns to ONLY the true Word, they are forced to seek the truth of what it tells us. I seek that truth in every word, and know that we can't set aside any part to seek a truth we wish.

 

[Rainrider]

Now to blow up some heads.
As we have already made clear that HaShem doesn't change, and what He told us will be true to the end of time. Even His commandments will hold as was also pointed out. We must take a look at the New Covenant, and do our best to make clear the truth of it. Keep in mind, we have no intention of tailoring this to fit anyone's understand, rather we will be looking at the Word. I am going to give you the benefit of the dough that you have read the passages we left for you. If not please do so, as they show that HaShem is unchanging. With that in mind, we must look at this new covenant in that light.
Jer. 31:31 is the first we see of this new covenant.
Jer 31:31“The day is coming,” says the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.
Jer 31:33“But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,” says the LORD. “I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Jer 31:34And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, 'You should know the LORD.' For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already," says the LORD. "And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins."
Not once in this or any other passage is there even a hint that HaShem, the Law, the path to salvation, or any part of His Word will be changed. We must understand this or we will, (at lest in our minds), change it to fit our wants. We must change our wants to fit His ways. does this in any way say we will get it right 100% of the time, not even close. After we are carnal, and we do fall on our face more than we wish. That is why asking for forgiveness should always be a part of our prayer.
As we read Hebrews 10:16 we find the same thing. So even after Yeshua's birth, sacrifice, and resurrection, it remained the same. We don't find that something changed in this new covenant, any place in His Word.
Yes it was the blood of Yeshua's sacrifice that sealed the deal. This is how we know it is a blood covenant. (A topic we will get to in time.) Luke 22:20
1Co 11:25In the same way, he took the cup of wine after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant between God and his people—an agreement confirmed with my blood. Do this to remember me as often as you drink it."
It's our understanding that this points to Pesach, (passover) and not the random act of taking what is called by many communion. Though that in it's self isn't something I will ever take part in again, we don't see that it isn't sinful. We do however see it as man's ideas, and not biblical truth.
I am going to pose here, as there is still a lot to cover, and there isn't room to do so in one post. So until next time enjoy your thanksgiving.

 

[Rainrider]

2Co 3:6He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.
Though some wish to claim this points to the removal Torah, they fall to tie this thinking with other passages that say the opposite. So how does one reconcile this passage with those? Some simply wish to push any text aside that doesn't work with their understanding, that is not how one learns, and grows.
As we seen and will see again, the new covenant places teh laws in our hearts and minds, an act that can only be acoplished by the Spirit of HaShem. Although it is understood that all man kind will have knowelge of His laws, and rightly so. You see we all now right from wrong, and that is the foundation of Torah. How do we know this? If a person has never read, or heard any part of the Bible, they still know it is wrong to steel, lie, and so on. This is seen anytime a person does wrong. They try to hide it. Today we know it as ones conscience.
Heb 8:8But when God found fault with the people, he said:
“The day is coming, says the LORD,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel and Judah.
We do good to make note that it was the people with whom fault was found, not the Torah.
Heb 8:10But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day, says the LORD: I will put my laws in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Heb 8:13When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.
Some wish to use the last verse to say the law has been removed. Yet just how can one say this, and hold to the understanding that HaShem doesn't change him mind? They can't, and if their misunderstanding of this passage is challenged on that bases, they show their hypocrisy. Having seen this many times in my life, and having done the same in my past, we now have a clear understanding of this. You see, at one time, I would say, well he didn't change it was His intent to remove the law all along. I know sad.
So how does one find common ground when looking at this, and say mat.5:17-18, or Rom. 2:26? We must first understand that in the Old Covenant the law was written on stone, placed inside the Arc of the covenant, and left there. Oh sure it was also written in Torah, and read every week. Yet it had no place in the hearts of man. Most know the law, and held it in their mind most of the time. Yet as we know, Israel, and Judah time and again turned away from it.
So when the Law was placed in our hearts and minds, it became renewed. Even though we see here that it is said to be old, the law is still valid, and holds for us today. So again nothing other than where the law is placed has changed. HaShem didn't change, or change His mind, He simply placed His laws where every one would know them.
Next time we are going to look at the high priest. That is where we will find some rather interesting things.

 

[awelight]

In reply to a trinity..
Deu 6:4"Listen, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.
Mar 12:29Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: 'Listen, O Israel! The LORD our God is the one and only LORD.
We know that HaShem is one, not 3, as His Word is truth, and there is no reason to think He would not lead to any wrong conclusion. There for as we read in the first chapter of John, they are one and the same.
As for Paul, The Jewish poeple understood they were to be a light unto the world. meaning they were to teach teh nations, (nations means gentiles.) though they gave that up, in favor of their own understandings. Gentiles were not ever to be out siders, that is why HaShem seen fit to explain that we were welcomed. This is done in the feast, as well as in worship. Don't get me wrong, we were not to go into the Temple it's self. Yet just we read that Ruth was excepted, so to were any from the nations, that were willing to take on the challenges they would face.
As we learn more of this we see that HaShem never said, Nope sorry on one from the nations is going ever find salvation. In fact, we find that the opposite is true. The book of Jonah is witness to this. As we should know Nineveh was an Assyrian city, that HaShem seen fit to give the opportunity for salvation.
Knowing this, we must rethink what we think we know about Paul. You see it is only when Irsael sees that we have a sound, and loving relationship with HaShem, the one true LORD, can we hope to show them by our actions the way. Saying that we have 3 gods will not get us there. It also goes against the teachings we find in the Word.
So how do see Yeshua? He was HaShem, and that HaShem took on a hunam body isn't something new. Abraham seen Him in human form, as well as many others. This is why the human ask, Why have you forsaken me? You see, for HaShem to to remain pure, He can't touch the dead. So at the time of Yeshua's death HaShem removed Himself from that body. I know that with any form of theology one can build any form of understanding they like. Yet when one turns to ONLY the true Word, they are forced to seek the truth of what it tells us. I seek that truth in every word, and know that we can't set aside any part to seek a truth we wish.

Before I get into the issue of the Divine Trinity again, I would like to comment on your use of the word: HaShem,

First, Have you become so steeped in Judaism, that you are afraid, as they were, to use the name of God? Surely you know, that HaShem means "The Name" - A periphrastic word used in place of God's true name. Christians don't need to do this; because thanks to the Person and Work of Jesus Christ, we as believers can come "boldly" before the Throne and have access to the "Holy Place". (Hebrews 4:16; 10:19), as well as, call upon our heavenly Father - as ABBA - a term of endearment, that is similar to saying "Dad".

Second, You quoted Deuteronomy 6:4 - Which states: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD
In the Hebrew, Lord is one word and God is another. Lord is: יְהֹוָה - yehôvâh or Jehovah and God is: אֱלֹהִים - 'ĕlôhı̂ym or Elohim. In English translations, both Jehovah and Elohim are both often translated as God or Lord. Oh, by the way - were you aware that the word "Elohim" in the Hebrew language, is a Masculine - Plural Noun? It's plurality, can only be understood as to the Trinity and certainly not as to the number of gods. For Elohim is not gods, Elohim is God.

Again I state, that Scripture teaches us that God is ONE God. ONE in Existence - He is Eternal. ONE in Essence - Which is defined as: A term used in theology as a designation for the set of properties or attributes that make an entity what it fundamentally is, and which it has by necessity, and without which it loses its identity. Examples: Spirit, Holy, Eternal, Good, True, Faithful, etc. One in Purpose - all three Persons are in agreement. These are just a few that could be mentioned.

The fact that God is Three distinct Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, changes nothing as to His Oneness. In the OT, the term Father and Son were not applied to God. It was in the NT that the Father revealed the Son and the Son revealed the Father and we see the Spirit at work in John 3:3-8.

You leaned heavily upon Deut. 6:4 - But you don't seem to understand that "The Lord our God" is Jesus Christ. He is the God of Israel. (John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.) The Creator of all things. The Incarnate Word. The Alpha and the Omega - the First and the Last. The Great I Am. The Covenant Lord of Israel. The Shepherd of the sheep. The Head of the Church (Which was never mentioned in the OT either.). The Lord of lords and King of kings.

You believe, that God is one Person only and manifests himself as multiple persons. This is called Modalism and Sabellianism. However, again I say - if this is TRUE - then how would you explain the following:

1.) Why does this verse of Scripture say: Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?

2.) Who is God referring too and speaking with in: Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ?

3.) In John 1:1 - ᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος. - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. How could The Word (Jesus Christ), be both "with God" and "be God" at the same time? God cannot be God and be with Himself at the same time. The Trinity explains this seeming dilemma.

4.) In John 5:36, we read: But the witness which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father hath given me to accomplish, the very works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. If God is just one Person and manifests Himself as two, (In this particular case); how can God give Himself works to accomplish? How can God send Himself? This would make no sense, unless the Father and the Son are two distinct Persons.

5.) To whom is Jesus praying in John 17 - surely you are not suggesting that God is praying to God or that one manifestation of God or mode of God is praying to another manifestation or mode of Himself? The answer here is: Jesus Christ in His human nature is praying to His heavenly Father. Therefore the perfect man is praying to God. Even though Jesus Christ has TWO natures - Divine and Human - One cannot say that the Second Person of the Trinity is praying to the First Person of the trinity. For God does not pray to God.

6.) In the following verses, we read: Heb_1:3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Since this verse is referring to Jesus Christ and it declares that He is " upholding all things by the word of his power " and therefore MUST be God - who is He sitting down next to? Again, in: Heb_10:12 but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; So we know that He sat down next to God but if Christ is not God - How could He be said to " uphold all things by the word of his power "?

I hope you don't just gloss over these questions. I am not trying to prove myself right but trying to help you see that without the proper understanding of God and His Triune nature, none of these questions can be answered honestly and there are many more questions I could have used.

Lastly - I don't understand why you said this: "As we learn more of this we see that HaShem never said, Nope sorry on (no) one from the nations is going ever find salvation." I never implied that. I said the Jewish people did not expect the nations to be brought in apart from their leadership and example. Several Gentiles were saved in the OT days but their relative position was in subjection to the Jews. The Apostle Paul, under the Inspiration of the Spirit, in Romans chapters 9-11, was explaining to the Gentile believers, at that time, why so few Jews were being saved, as compared to the numbers out from the nations. In chapter 9, he points out that so few Jews are being saved because God is the one who has Elected those to be saved. In Chapter 10, he explains why Israel cannot blame God and shows how each person is responsible. In Chapter 11, he gives to the reader, the future of Israel as a people and as a nation.

Until the next time my friend.

 

[CS1]

In almost ever thread I have opened, many things have became clear to me. However the most common is how badly some misunderstand the Torah. So with this threat, we will look at them, and try to give the truth of what thous laws are, how they work, and why. Now please don't come in and try to say I am trying to say, FOLLOW THE LAW. In all truth, everyone of us has the responsibility to seek the truth, and work out our own salvation. Phl. 2:12-13.
So when we see a teaching that isn't in line with our own understanding it would do us good to hear it out. Why, well if we do as has been done in every thread I have ever opened, and try to beat someone into following our understanding, we push them further away. Why is do you think that the Jewish people will not speak with most people that say they are Christian? I can tell you from first hand experience. It took me a long time find a Rabbi willing to discuss their understanding. I found it odd that I was told to check my doctrine at the door. You see at first I didn't understand. I only said I would do my best. Don't get me wrong, I know my place, and understood that by entering into someones space, you must do so with respect of their understanding, and place in life. Bulling them, telling them how wrong they are, and never slowing down to get the full story of their walk, is doing Satan's work for him.
This has been, is still done, and from the looks of things will keep going on. The Jewish people in no way wish to push on you their understanding, just as they don't want you to do that to them. just I am not seeking your understanding, nor wish to force you to follow mine. We must learn to talk, and speak clearly of our intent, and understanding. Never say anything that can be seen as working both sides of the fence, or be so indoctrinated that we blind our selves. If we can do that, we can learn.
I find it sad that on a site full of so called believers, this the kind of retrospection one will get. That is if you don't buckle to the ideas of others. Then when you get enough of that, and stand up for your self, your the one they say is wrong. Yet in all truth, if they are truly believers, and honest, they would see how wrong their own action was.
Don't get me wrong, I am almost 100% sure the same thing will be tried on this thread as well. So if you are one of them that do this, you will not be getting any reply from me at all.
So did I learn? By being polite, and asking relevant questions. That is questions that relate to the TOPIC at hand. I learned more in a week than I ever did in any church. And trust me I attended many different denominations in my quest for truth. I was once a follower of the doctrine of law bad. I understood it was nailed to the cross, and held no relevance for the christian. Yet I learned I was wrong.

One thing is the Jews, who have rejected The Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah, will never want to hear from a Christian that he is the Promised Massiah. Second, they don't follow the law because they are mostly Idol worshippers, and atheists, and live in perversion.
Just as the Books of their Bible recorded how they were overthrown due to idol worship, and perversion. Time and time again.

 

[Magenta]

So how do see Yeshua? He was HaShem, and that HaShem took on a hunam body isn't something new. Abraham seen Him in human form, as well as many others. This is why the human ask, Why have you forsaken me? You see, for HaShem to to remain pure, He can't touch the dead. So at the time of Yeshua's death HaShem removed Himself from that body. I know that with any form of theology one can build any form of understanding they like. Yet when one turns to ONLY the true Word, they are forced to seek the truth of what it tells us. I seek that truth in every word, and know that we can't set aside any part to seek a truth we wish.

If God had to remove Himself from the deceased body of Jesus due to
becoming unclean, how is it He was able to raise it and remain pure?

 

[Rainrider]

Before I get into the issue of the Divine Trinity again, I would like to comment on your use of the word: HaShem,

First, Have you become so steeped in Judaism, that you are afraid, as they were, to use the name of God? Surely you know, that HaShem means "The Name" - A periphrastic word used in place of God's true name. Christians don't need to do this; because thanks to the Person and Work of Jesus Christ, we as believers can come "boldly" before the Throne and have access to the "Holy Place". (Hebrews 4:16; 10:19), as well as, call upon our heavenly Father - as ABBA - a term of endearment, that is similar to saying "Dad".

Second, You quoted Deuteronomy 6:4 - Which states: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD
In the Hebrew, Lord is one word and God is another. Lord is: יְהֹוָה - yehôvâh or Jehovah and God is: אֱלֹהִים - 'ĕlôhı̂ym or Elohim. In English translations, both Jehovah and Elohim are both often translated as God or Lord. Oh, by the way - were you aware that the word "Elohim" in the Hebrew language, is a Masculine - Plural Noun? It's plurality, can only be understood as to the Trinity and certainly not as to the number of gods. For Elohim is not gods, Elohim is God.

Again I state, that Scripture teaches us that God is ONE God. ONE in Existence - He is Eternal. ONE in Essence - Which is defined as: A term used in theology as a designation for the set of properties or attributes that make an entity what it fundamentally is, and which it has by necessity, and without which it loses its identity. Examples: Spirit, Holy, Eternal, Good, True, Faithful, etc. One in Purpose - all three Persons are in agreement. These are just a few that could be mentioned.

The fact that God is Three distinct Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, changes nothing as to His Oneness. In the OT, the term Father and Son were not applied to God. It was in the NT that the Father revealed the Son and the Son revealed the Father and we see the Spirit at work in John 3:3-8.

You leaned heavily upon Deut. 6:4 - But you don't seem to understand that "The Lord our God" is Jesus Christ. He is the God of Israel. (John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.) The Creator of all things. The Incarnate Word. The Alpha and the Omega - the First and the Last. The Great I Am. The Covenant Lord of Israel. The Shepherd of the sheep. The Head of the Church (Which was never mentioned in the OT either.). The Lord of lords and King of kings.

You believe, that God is one Person only and manifests himself as multiple persons. This is called Modalism and Sabellianism. However, again I say - if this is TRUE - then how would you explain the following:

1.) Why does this verse of Scripture say: Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?

2.) Who is God referring too and speaking with in: Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ?

3.) In John 1:1 - ᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος. - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. How could The Word (Jesus Christ), be both "with God" and "be God" at the same time? God cannot be God and be with Himself at the same time. The Trinity explains this seeming dilemma.

4.) In John 5:36, we read: But the witness which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father hath given me to accomplish, the very works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. If God is just one Person and manifests Himself as two, (In this particular case); how can God give Himself works to accomplish? How can God send Himself? This would make no sense, unless the Father and the Son are two distinct Persons.

5.) To whom is Jesus praying in John 17 - surely you are not suggesting that God is praying to God or that one manifestation of God or mode of God is praying to another manifestation or mode of Himself? The answer here is: Jesus Christ in His human nature is praying to His heavenly Father. Therefore the perfect man is praying to God. Even though Jesus Christ has TWO natures - Divine and Human - One cannot say that the Second Person of the Trinity is praying to the First Person of the trinity. For God does not pray to God.

6.) In the following verses, we read: Heb_1:3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Since this verse is referring to Jesus Christ and it declares that He is " upholding all things by the word of his power " and therefore MUST be God - who is He sitting down next to? Again, in: Heb_10:12 but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; So we know that He sat down next to God but if Christ is not God - How could He be said to " uphold all things by the word of his power "?

I hope you don't just gloss over these questions. I am not trying to prove myself right but trying to help you see that without the proper understanding of God and His Triune nature, none of these questions can be answered honestly and there are many more questions I could have used.

Lastly - I don't understand why you said this: "As we learn more of this we see that HaShem never said, Nope sorry on (no) one from the nations is going ever find salvation." I never implied that. I said the Jewish people did not expect the nations to be brought in apart from their leadership and example. Several Gentiles were saved in the OT days but their relative position was in subjection to the Jews. The Apostle Paul, under the Inspiration of the Spirit, in Romans chapters 9-11, was explaining to the Gentile believers, at that time, why so few Jews were being saved, as compared to the numbers out from the nations. In chapter 9, he points out that so few Jews are being saved because God is the one who has Elected those to be saved. In Chapter 10, he explains why Israel cannot blame God and shows how each person is responsible. In Chapter 11, he gives to the reader, the future of Israel as a people and as a nation.

Until the next time my friend.

2 things.
1- Never assume that you understand a person, when you have no idea why they use the words they do.
2- As I am willing to let HaShem be my judge and not man, as we all should, is it not wise to let Him be the judge of a persons motives, and salvation?
Now as to me being stepped as you say in Judaism, is it not the Way the Yeshua lived his life, and are we not to walk as he walked?
I asked in my opening post that we stay on topic, and as you seem to wish drift further away from the topic at hand I am asking that you please rad my post, and stay ON TOPIC. trust me when I say you have little chance of changing how I understand the word. You wish to try and put down my use of a TITLE used to denote my King. I am sure you know so much more than I do about the Jewish people, and why they do, say, and follow the things that we are told to in the word, yet show so little understanding of why a person that is a born again believer would walk in the ways shown as the correct way, in every aspect of his life.
Now can I am going to get back on topic. Should you wish to get on topic, we can move foreword from there. to Belittle ones understanding as I said in my opening post, pushes them further away. Making it harder to reach them. It also shows a lack of understanding. How? As seems to always be the case, those with little understanding try to build a mountain where not even a mole hill is found.

 

[Rainrider]

If God had to remove Himself from the deceased body of Jesus due to
becoming unclean, how is it He was able to raise it and remain pure?

Well to understand this we must first understand that HaShem has the power to do what ever He wishes, where ever, and how ever He wishes. The idea that He had to be in contact with the dead to rais them, is putting a limitation on Him that doesn't exist.

 

[Rainrider]

As some may wonder why I started in the Torah, as it is clear that some have no clue. The right way to learn is to build from the foundation up. said foundation must be on solid ground.
Mat 7:24"Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock.
Mat 7:25Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won't collapse because it is built on bedrock.
The Torah is the bed rock that all of scripture is built. salvation doesn't depend on what we are told, it is solely dependent on walking in what the Word has given as the WAY. As a man that has seen first hand the teachings of more churches than most would dream of looking into, I am happy to say that I am free of mans teachings. I built my salvation on bedrock, and have worked hard to better understand the truth. Not a truth, THE TRUTH.
If we build on sand, as is done more often that not, someone or something will come along and knock over everything we have thought we knew.
Mat 7:26But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn't obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand.
Mat 7:27When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash."
It is understanding this that we must strive to, as we know a Midrash is a story that though not true holds a teaching that many will over look. If they even try to understand it. Most don't, they simply follow the teachings they were raised under, without question. If you don't wish to test what you understand, then you become stagnate, and can lose your way. Remember
Mat 7:21“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’
Mat 7:23But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'
So what has this to do with how one builds their house? When one pushes away the foundation, they lose the integrity of the building. (building = salvation) When we face a question on salvation, how many understand that as HaShem doesn't change, nether does His plan for man kind.
As you will soon see, salvation in both old and new testaments remain the same. As do other aspects so many wish to swep under the rug, and forget. Some try to place HaShem in a box, limit his power, and don't even see that is what they are doing. We must also work to understand that HaShem can be anything He wishes, needs, or is needed by man. To try and understand that His spirit is Him, or that Yeshua is Him, and not 3 persons, we must first understand that He is, can, and always will be what is needed. He is Holy, and our own understand is limited by the things we hold so tightly to that it blinds us to things we should try to understand. Does this mean I think I have all the answers? Not even, I know I will be a student of the Word for the rest of my life. I am flexible, and if I see something new, I do take time to study it out, test it against the Word, and seek to understand.
However when I am told I am wrong and that I must now go back to something I found deficient, I simply can't. You see what almost everyone onhere has failed to read, is that I was once where they are now. My embrace of the Jewish understanding comes from a need to walk in the Way that Yeshua has left as our example. Or should I say, from my need to embrace my King.
next time we look at salvation from the N.T. point of view, though you will see it hasn't changed.

 

[Rainrider]

One thing is the Jews, who have rejected The Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah, will never want to hear from a Christian that he is the Promised Massiah. Second, they don't follow the law because they are mostly Idol worshippers, and atheists, and live in perversion.
Just as the Books of their Bible recorded how they were overthrown due to idol worship, and perversion. Time and time again.

As always, when one opens a thread they know that someone will come in later, and go back to the first post. Even though I don't understand it myself. So here is your reply to this, though keep in mind we have moved so far past this.
As we should know the Tanakh gives us teachings that we should take to heart. Israel and the Jewish people should be seen as the example by which we should learn. Both in their sin, and love of HaShem.

 

[CS1]

As always, when one opens a thread they know that someone will come in later, and go back to the first post. Even though I don't understand it myself. So here is your reply to this, though keep in mind we have moved so far past this.
As we should know the Tanakh gives us teachings that we should take to heart. Israel and the Jewish people should be seen as the example by which we should learn. Both in their sin, and love of HaShem.

Yes I agree many today and many other nations and people have done and still do the same sin. Yet Jesus is still the answer to SIN.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

One topic that came up in my last thread was Circumcision. Oddly it was said that law has been removed. However they were looking not at that commandment, rather at Paul.

Go read about the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 and see how the Holy Spirit led the Apostles to conclude that gentile converts to Christianity were not obligated to keep most of the rules prescribed to the Jews by the Mosaic Law, such as Jewish dietary laws and the rules concerning circumcision of males.

The Apostles were also led by the Lord to retain the prohibitions on eating blood, meat containing blood, and meat of animals that were strangled, and on fornication and idolatry.

So, God's Word teaches CIRCUMCISION is not a requirement for salvation n o more than Saturday sabbath is which the Holy Spirit did not lead the Apostles to teach as being a requirement for salvation.

Under the New Covenant we are free to be circumcised and to observe Saturday sabbath... but those that these teach items are required for salvation under the New Covenant have sinned and are in opposition to what God's Word teaches.

Those that go overboard on the Hebrew roots movement typically start teaching we much obey the old testament laws such as being circumcised and to observe Saturday sabbath which is false and sinful teaching.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Both in their sin, and love of HaShem.

It's OK to call God your Father, and we can call Jesus... Jesus.

Using Hebrew words does not impress the Lord or make one any closer to the Lord ya know...

 

[Rainrider]

Go read about the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 and see how the Holy Spirit led the Apostles to conclude that gentile converts to Christianity were not obligated to keep most of the rules prescribed to the Jews by the Mosaic Law, such as Jewish dietary laws and the rules concerning circumcision of males.

The Apostles were also led by the Lord to retain the prohibitions on eating blood, meat containing blood, and meat of animals that were strangled, and on fornication and idolatry.

So, God's Word teaches CIRCUMCISION is not a requirement for salvation n o more than Saturday sabbath is which the Holy Spirit did not lead the Apostles to teach as being a requirement for salvation.

Under the New Covenant we are free to be circumcised and to observe Saturday sabbath... but those that these teach items are required for salvation under the New Covenant have sinned and are in opposition to what God's Word teaches.

Those that go overboard on the Hebrew roots movement typically start teaching we much obey the old testament laws such as being circumcised and to observe Saturday sabbath which is false and sinful teaching.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.





It's OK to call God your Father, and we can call Jesus... Jesus.

Using Hebrew words does not impress the Lord or make one any closer to the Lord ya know...

Go read the full thread

 

[Rainrider]

Go read about the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 and see how the Holy Spirit led the Apostles to conclude that gentile converts to Christianity were not obligated to keep most of the rules prescribed to the Jews by the Mosaic Law, such as Jewish dietary laws and the rules concerning circumcision of males.

The Apostles were also led by the Lord to retain the prohibitions on eating blood, meat containing blood, and meat of animals that were strangled, and on fornication and idolatry.

So, God's Word teaches CIRCUMCISION is not a requirement for salvation n o more than Saturday sabbath is which the Holy Spirit did not lead the Apostles to teach as being a requirement for salvation.

Under the New Covenant we are free to be circumcised and to observe Saturday sabbath... but those that these teach items are required for salvation under the New Covenant have sinned and are in opposition to what God's Word teaches.

Those that go overboard on the Hebrew roots movement typically start teaching we much obey the old testament laws such as being circumcised and to observe Saturday sabbath which is false and sinful teaching.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.





It's OK to call God your Father, and we can call Jesus... Jesus.

Using Hebrew words does not impress the Lord or make one any closer to the Lord ya know...

It is also good to know that one can use Hebrew and not offend HaShem. Now back on topic please.

 

[Rainrider]

As this thread is now looking at salvation it would do us all good to stay on topic. Being disruptive is not only rude, it is also a sad atempt to stop an understand based on ones own bias. However as I know I can't stop you, I will instead just work around you.
As we are now on the topic of salvation in the N.T. we feel it only right to say now, that if you wish to make a claim based on Paul, and reject the teachings of Yeshua, please find a thread that doesn't mind the disruption.
When we wee looking at salvation in teh Old Testament, we found that it is based on faith, followed by obedience. So what does Yeshua say on the topic? After all, if we follow teh understanding that He is the HaShem, and that makes Him the author of our faith would we not be better off to follow his lead? That answer is YES.
Luk 19:8Meanwhile, Zacchaeus stood before the Lord and said, "I will give half my wealth to the poor, Lord, and if I have cheated people on their taxes, I will give them back four times as much!"
Luk 19:9Jesus responded, "Salvation has come to this home today, for this man has shown himself to be a true son of Abraham. As we can see, Yeshua called this man a true son of Abraham, not as a way to show the mans faith, more as a way to show that His willingness to follow the Laws of HaShem.
Now I know that will say I am a sinner, and how lost I am. We find it sad that man kind now thinks they have the power to condemn one another. Yet they can't see what is right before them. Lets back up a bit here and look at what we just said.
Mat 5:17“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
Mat 5:18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.
In this chapter we find that Yeshua goes on to give a fuller/better understanding of many laws. Not an understanding of their physical manifestation, rather their spiritual manifestation. We now look foreword to being told we are using the wrong translation, and how Yeshua fulfilled the law, and the prophets. Yet He has fulfilled some true, there are still some that must be fulfilled.
same passages from a translation I am sure many have never read.
17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened.
We must also look at what Yeshua said one must do to gain eternal life.
Mat 19:17“Why ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. But to answer your question—if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments.”
Luk 16:17But that doesn’t mean that the law has lost its force. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the smallest point of God’s law to be overturned.
Jhn 3:16"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
Just as we found in Torah, we now find in the words of Yeshua. He tells us we need faith, and that we must obay the Laws. I know this makes me a sinner, at lest to some, however I place that in HaShem's hands and not mans.
So what does Paul say?
2Co 7:10For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There’s no regret for that kind of sorrow. But worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual death.
Phl 2:12Dear friends, you always followed my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away, it is even more important. Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear.
So why would Paul say we must work hard to obey HaShem if there is nothing left to obey? After all if we rove the law, then we left with a faith only means of salvation. Though that sounds great, it simply doesn't hold up. As it is clear that at one person has no understanding of what SIN really is, and we all know that sin works to remove ones salvation, we must look at it.
Jas 2:9But if you favor some people over others, you are committing a sin. You are guilty of breaking the law.
1Jo 3:4Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God.
We will stand by the fact that we are told Sin is a violation of the Law as one can see here. So is keeping the Law a sin? How can it be, if sin due to braking said law? Even Paul agrees with this understanding.
Rom 7:7Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”
We will close for now to let any that wish to vent their frustration do so. Just keep in mind, if I don't reply, it is due more to the fact that you are placing scripture against scripture.
Mat 7:22On judgment day many will say to me, 'Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.'
Luk 13:27And he will reply, 'I tell you, I don't know you or where you come from. Get away from me, all you who do evil.' if you look up the passages above you will find the word iniquity in both. As we know iniquity is unclean, sin,
From Storng's

1. the condition of without law
   
   1. because ignorant of it
   2. because of violating it
2. contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

 

[awelight]

2 things.
1- Never assume that you understand a person, when you have no idea why they use the words they do.
2- As I am willing to let HaShem be my judge and not man, as we all should, is it not wise to let Him be the judge of a persons motives, and salvation?
Now as to me being stepped as you say in Judaism, is it not the Way the Yeshua lived his life, and are we not to walk as he walked?
I asked in my opening post that we stay on topic, and as you seem to wish drift further away from the topic at hand I am asking that you please rad my post, and stay ON TOPIC. trust me when I say you have little chance of changing how I understand the word. You wish to try and put down my use of a TITLE used to denote my King. I am sure you know so much more than I do about the Jewish people, and why they do, say, and follow the things that we are told to in the word, yet show so little understanding of why a person that is a born again believer would walk in the ways shown as the correct way, in every aspect of his life.
Now can I am going to get back on topic. Should you wish to get on topic, we can move foreword from there. to Belittle ones understanding as I said in my opening post, pushes them further away. Making it harder to reach them. It also shows a lack of understanding. How? As seems to always be the case, those with little understanding try to build a mountain where not even a mole hill is found.

Thanks for your reply, which was not a reply.

I see that by asking straight forward questions I have offended you sensibilities. As to any assumptions I might have made, you only had to give explanation as to my enquiries. However it is quite clear, that you wish to expound but not further explain your reasoning- just as you entirely dodged those questions.

So be it.. go your way in peace.